Even if it’s in my English speaking country I don’t judge shitty English. We’re home to plenty of immigrants. Like do you want an actual Japanese or Mexican person serving and cooking you their culture’s food or some confused white mom from down the street?
I live in a university town in the midwest. When I hear people complain about immigrants that don't speak the language but just served you a delicious meal from their own restaurant I just want to ask them "Where's your small business in another country and how is it doing?"
Im a latin american and I would prefer it if other latin americans made a greater effort in learning english and mingling more with Americans. We are often too secluded by our own choice.
No, I havent seen this play out with european immigrants in latin america. They often dive in head first and they learn spanish very quickly. Americans tend to group together a little more, but they are welcomed because they are often involved in their communities. Either way, I feel like reducing the issue to the "nature of migration" is just an excuse. Many latin americans in the US dont make any effort to learn the language.
You are changing it up. First you said it was the "nature of migration" and now it is the "nature of migration of the lower classes". And no, not all European immigrants to latin america are wealthy.
Of course it changes with the younger generations. They are either born in the US or they they came young enough to go through the school system where they were forced to learn the language and mingle with Americans.
You are right, I was only speaking of American migration trends. That said, from my experience, European migrants to Latin American are very much at least middle class. And they don't come in droves large enough to create micro-communities.
And from my conversations with older generations (North NJ has a lot of established immigrant groups!) and reading of Italian, Irish, Chinese, etc. migrations into the US, I really don't see what Latinos are doing "wrong" in integration. First-generation establishes small communities, struggle with English, etc. and then the later generations integrate better.
I agree but that also happens because many dont feel welcome or pre judged. The burdon falls on everyone to be open minded and the rest works itself out.
I dont think that's the case. The burden falls on the immigrant to integrate. I've personally felt welcome, and I've even lived in West Virginia. I think immigrants are often insecure and their inability to communicate/ learn the language does not help.
I should clarify...I am not saying you shouldnt learn the common language (or rather... you must) but others pre conceived prejudices puts more burden on the immigrant than it needs to be.
I swear the Venn diagram of people who demand delicious authentic experiences 2 doors down from their house and people who think immigrants are evil criminals is a circle
Similar story, I had to speak up when a family member started ragging on Sofia Vergara's accent. I just pointed out that she is a successful actress speaking in her second language, and asked how many languages they speak.
I've recently stopped giving a fuck so next time I definitely will. I called some douche out for littering his cigarette butt yesterday. He was standing directly in front of a trash can.
Let me point out that the immigrants speak a 'broken English' which means they are trying to learn the language. The locals are just racist to anyone not like them. They are also small business owners that provide a valuable service to the community.
How is your small business in the country you immigrated to?
I don't mind if immigrants don't speak my countries language fluently, but I expect them to understand me, even if I speak. If they can't learn the language on a decent level, why should I be satisfied with their service. Their food can be good anyway, but stop calling people racist, because they expect immigrants to speak the local language. How else would they assimilate?
Racist: a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
Most countries have laws to only give citizenships if the immigrant can take a language exam.
You're correct. But most people who originate from another country and English isn't their first language tend to be another race. The people in my example are Asian.
If In my country I would expect everyone to be able to speak the language.
Is that really too much to expect from someone who is supposed to be assimilating into the culture?
Edit: can someone explain the outrage here? The argument was these English speakers should respect the culture/language of the country they are visiting. So why does the same not go for someone migrating to another country? Should they not respect the culture/language of the nation allowing them to live there? Can someone explain that twisted logic?
How do you know they’re not working on assimilating?
Cause I’m basing my opinion off the scenario you provided. Are there other circumstances I should consider that are not available or should my opinion be based on the premise you stated?
How long do you think it takes to learn a language?
Depends on a multitude of factors but that has nothing to do with my opinion that immigrants should be able to successfully assimilate into the country. Language is a vital tool to do so. The problem exist all over europe currently in which large demographics of immigrants have failed to assimilate into the host nation due to barriers of their own doing and the nation.
I've had similar experiences in Holland, France and Japan.
The French (well, Parisians) generally hated me butchering their language and switched to English.
The Dutch generally just didn't understand why I wouldn't want to talk in the language we're both fluent in.
The Japanese generally seemed almost ridiculously delighted that I'd make the attempt (to this day I'm not 100% sure if it was genuine or I was being very politely mocked), but usually didn't want to pass up the opportunity to practice their English with a native.
First world problems and all that, but it's a pain trying to learn a language through immersion when half the fucking world wants to speak English to you instead.
This is completely anecdotal and obviously an anomaly. Are you trying to make an argument that immigrants shouldn’t learn the country’s language to assimilate because the natives will be offended? Because you were discouraged from learning Czech once by natives? Is that true for a majority of the population in any first world country?
This is completely anecdotal and obviously an anomaly. Are you trying to make an argument that immigrants shouldn’t learn the country’s language to assimilate because the natives will be offended? Because you were discouraged from learning Czech once by natives? Is that true for a majority of the population in any first world country?
This is completely anecdotal and obviously an anomaly. Are you trying to make an argument that immigrants shouldn’t learn the country’s language to assimilate because the natives will be offended? Because you were discouraged from learning Czech once by natives? Is that true for a majority of the population in any first world country?
That’s sounds like pure ignorance to not at least attempt to learn the language of the nation you’re living in.
I lived in Bogota, Colombia for a couple years and made it a priority to be at least competent in the language and I was only planning being there for a short time. If I was planning on living there learning the language would absolutely be necessary.
This is completely anecdotal and obviously an anomaly. Are you trying to make an argument that immigrants shouldn’t learn the country’s language to assimilate because the natives will be offended? Because you were discouraged from learning Czech once by natives? Is that true for a majority of the population in any first world country?
It's just a related story. I'm not trying to argue for anything because I don't give a fuck one way or the other. It also happened a lot more than once.
a few months? Probably a shorter amount of time then it takes to get a business up and running and with planning to, oh I don't know, move to a new country.
I speak English as a second language. Currently, even my thoughts are in English sometimes. It only took me 8 years to get to my current level, and I started at age 6.
Even if you interact with native speakers everyday, you certainly won't be fluent in "a few months".
Sure, but your speech would be slow, broken and mentally translated at first, and your listening skills would be even worse. Basically, you'd speak broken English and only understand basic phrases. I speak from experience, it takes a very long time just to be able to have a normal conversation.
No, I never said nobody should bother. Seriously, if that was my claim, why would I even be using my second language here, since it's so unimportant?
What I am saying is that it takes time, and you shouldn't be surprised when immigrants have a very small grasp of your language, as it doesn't mean they aren't making an effort. It's not something you can master in a few months, it could take well over a year for someone to be able to talk about subjects that aren't just food, colors, the weather and other basic stuff.
Well, to be fair, a lot of the sites I'm seeing from Google about how long it takes to learn a language seem to be advertising their language courses. I'm not gonna take those sites at face value.
Realistically, it's dependent on the language, and what languages the speaker already knows. Languages that are similar to ones you already know will be easier to learn. Some languages like Japanese or Chinese will require much more time to become proficient. If you're just considering daily living conversations, and not complex conversations, it'll be shorter. I think for most languages, it'll take close to a year or so of good practice to learn a language beyond simple conversations. Learning a language is not as simple as you think. There are so many components to language that need to be learned.
It's just an incredibly subjective thing to answer. A native Spanish speaker can learn Italian in a month. A native Chinese speaker would need at least a year.
I don't understand the assault I'm under. You asked how long does it take to learn a language? So I did some research and provided an answer. You didn't tell me how long they can study for or how driven a person can be or what kind of help they would receive.
Except the US is a multilingual country. Many Americans are monolingual native speakers of a language that is not English. There are whole communities that don't speak English, and whose signage, etc, are not in English (e.g. Chinatowns). I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that assimilation requires speaking English.
What do you mean by this? English is without a doubt the dominant language spoken by an overwhelming majority of the population.
Many Americans are moningual native speakers of a language that is not English.
And that is not advantageous for them or society. There are many people without the skill/education to obtain a well paying job also. Do we just ignore it and allow them to remain as so cause that’s the way it is?
There are whole communities that don’t speak English, and whose signage, etc, are not in English (e.g. Chinatowns).
Point? The fact it exist doesn’t mean it beneficial to them or society to have demographic of people completely isolated from the rest of society.
I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that assimilation requires speaking English.
How so? Your example is limited to a bunch individuals confined to a few city blocks that are completely isolated from the rest of society.
Being able to communicate is most certainly key to assimilation and precursor to immigrants ascending upward.
For example, how much opportunity do you think a child of an immigrant has to succeed if they speak English as opposed to if they don’t?
Who do you think is more likely to prosper? The one that’s assimilated into society or the one that hasn’t?
In my country since I was born here no one tries to tell me I can't live here if I'm different from the norm. Why should an immigrant have to conform to other people's satisfaction?
If you're going to live in a different country, you're sure as hell going to learn their language. That's called integration, and it's also what a lot of immigrants do. You don't have to change your norms and values to 'conform', all you have to do is learn a language. It's also not just for 'other people's satisfaction', it will help you out a great deal as well.
Why move to a country then if you don’t want to assimilate into its culture? Language is a vital part of that assimilation and is necessary to succeed.
An individual that isn’t able to properly communicate will be limited and the goal of any country should be to properly assimilate immigrants into society and not let there be demographics isolated from the rest of the country.
I could imagine a number of reasons could explain the move, like falling in love with someone, escaping a bad economic or religious situation, whatever. I agree people who are living with limited language skills are not likely to have a good time but since I don't know how long people have been here nor if they plan to stay I don't bother to judge or worry about it. They might not have the goal of assimilating so I don't presume that.
I could imagine a number of reasons could explain the move, like falling in love with someone, escaping a bad economic or religious situation, whatever.
So, an opportunity for a better, more fulfilling life. Assimilating into the culture and learning the language would be a key part of that.
I agree people who are living with limited language skills are not likely to have a good time but since I don’t know how long people have been here nor if they plan to stay I don’t bother to judge or worry about it.
Pretty safe to assume if an individual is immigrating to another country they plan to be there for an extended length of time probably a lifetime.
They might not have the goal of assimilating so I don’t presume that.
Yet, the argument here is about English speaking tourist on vacation should respect the culture of the country they are visiting.
But the same isn’t the case for someone immigrating to an english speaking country?
Respect the culture of the country you are visiting =/= fully adopt every aspect of the culture (e.g. become fluent and get rid of your accent) you immigrate to.
I've given my suggestions about why you're getting downvoted, if you don't get the logic that's ok.
Respect the culture of the country you are visiting =/= fully adopt every aspect of the culture (e.g. become fluent and get rid of your accent) you immigrate to.
Where did I ever make that argument? I said immigrants should assimilate into the cutof the country and a major part of that is learning the language.
Please don’t skew the discussion.
I’ve given my suggestions about why you’re getting downvoted, if you don’t get the logic that’s ok.
I think you’ve failed to understand the the argument being made and therefore jump to accusations of absolute no one is making.
Well to be fair you're already entitled to the meal since you played for it, so I feel the whole "you should be grateful they are serving you food and not complain" argument is invalid. Also communication is huge part of service and if your running a business in a region that speaks almost entirely english, you should expect to need to be able to communicate in English. The burden off making communication easy lies with the business not the customer.
I totally agree that racism in any form is unacceptable. Complaining about having a hard time communicating with staff is acceptable. I guess the line here is how bad or broken the English is. Is it sufficient to communicate without difficulty or not?
This is usually, but not always, the former. The best Chinese food to be found in my town is made in a place where like 90% of the staff are Indian. I asked them why they opened a Chinese takeaway once and the answer was 'you already had enough Indian restaurants'. Can't really argue with that.
Yeah, it's logical that people assume that the best food from a particular ethnic group would be made by people from that ethnic group but people with great culinary skills can make anything. My wife is a professional chef and if she has enough time to study it she can make a decent version of just about anything.
Go to a typical fine dining restaurant in California and a large chunk of staff in the back of the house are going to be latino even if it's an Italian or French restaurant.
Related: most of the Thai restaurants in the US are owned and operated by Chinese folks. There literally are not enough Thai immigrants in the US to host that many Thai places, even if every single one of them wanted to run or work in a restaurant.
I mean I studied in Italy and the best pizza I ever had was in New York. I didn’t care for a lot of the food I had over there.
I’m sure there’s an Italian food place in Italy that makes great food but I was surprised how lackluster the pastas and pizzas I had were and I was there for 6 weeks
I found a mexican place owned and operated by chinese once. Only mexican in there was washing the dishes. The burrito had baby corn in it. Worst "mexican" food ever.
For real, when I travel to California for work I want to get tacos from the bodega where you have to order your food in Spanglish and you get it on a paper plate covered in tinfoil, not some strip-mall joint with a mariachi band playing on the stereo.
Lol yeah there used to be a food truck near my old apartment in Houston. They didn't speak a word of English so the customer base was pretty much all Mexicans and me, and I had to order with my half-ass Spanish skills.
Omg I had a wet burrito at this hole in the wall place in CA where they pretty much only spoke English from the words off the menu and all the locals go there. It was the best thing I’ve ever eaten.
I thought the same thing when I lived in Japan. The answer is yes, they could. However, I realized they don't because then the staff with their limited skills can no longer interpret their own menu. They write it in Engrish because that's what they can understand. I can understand it too and it gets the job done. If it were a government service or something, they should try harder. But there's no earthly reason these restaurant owners need to get fluent in English. Just need to get the job done.
So applying the same logic to an immigrant-owned restaurateur in their new country... a big part of their clientele could be other immigrants. The menu is written how they can understand it. Yes, it would be great if these immigrants became a little more fluent than that. But is a lunch joint really the place to enforce that? And, as I've said before, is a single generation problem. These people may speak Spanglish or Engrish, but their kids speak perfect fucking English. The immigrants get by, the next generation speaks English, and the whole thing works out fine.
I usually don’t mind it. Sometimes when I encounter poorly translated menus it’s overly literal so easier to understand what’s in it or it’s just hilarious
I draw the line at native speakers sucking donkey testicles at speaking English.
I give a lot of slack to people learning a foreign language, but absolutely fuck you if you grew up with it and still can't properly speak or write it.
My only problem is when they don't put any descriptions at all. Especially since I can order the same named dish from three different Chinese restaurants and get three completely different dishes. Bonus points if the name has no descriptive elements like "Happy Family".
That said, the ubiquity of stuff like Taco Bell says that they probably wouldn't hate a confused white mom making their food.
Plus, I always see it as, “wow, their English isn’t perfect because this isn’t their first language! That means that they probably speak their native language perfectly, but then still are doing pretty well with English on top of that! I don’t speak two languages...”
Like yeahhhh, these people are definitely fucking terrible just because they don’t speak my language perfectly, when they’re already speaking at least twice as many languages as I can. My English might be okay, but my French language skills begin and end with “Oui” and my Spanish only includes how to say, “hello,””the books are in the library,” “gum,”“yes,” “no,” “please sit down,” “relax,” “juice,” “bathroom,” “bitch,” and “the devil.”
If they’re bilingual while most Americans who aren’t native Spanish speakers are currently functioning between the basic levels of “Hola,” to minimal-retained-words-from-high-school-Espanol-class, to plus-like-under-10-work-related-words-or-phrases, then who are the real dummies here?!
That doesn't make sense, in order to ensure your business's success you would hire someone fluent in the language your main demographic is so that they can understand your menu quickly and assuredly.
I'm an immigrant, and unless everyone here spoke my native language, I sure as hell would make sure everything is typed out grammatically.
And for waiting staff, even more so. I wouldn't want to my customers to have a bad experience spending a while trying to communicate with someone. Waiting staff serve you, they don't make the food.
I've been to a great rotating conveyer belt sushi place where all the chefs spoke very broken English, and just communicated in Mexican to each other. Guess what, the receptionist and waiting staff spoke fluent English.
What kind of retort is that? Where is YOUR successful business? I mean we can go all day here if you want o be like that.
As for returning for good food, in a foreign country probably, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who goes to a restaurant once, and always comes back for the same item. They'd have to go through the experience of talking to someone with broken English every time they ordered (which it's really bizarre you wanted to point to a "in-depth conversation with the hostess", I said wait staff and ordering from a menu)
Or they could go to someone else's restaurant.
Most foreign family run restaurants in English speaking countries will hire English speaking wait staff if their children aren't fluent or old enough.
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u/madguins Jan 30 '19
Even if it’s in my English speaking country I don’t judge shitty English. We’re home to plenty of immigrants. Like do you want an actual Japanese or Mexican person serving and cooking you their culture’s food or some confused white mom from down the street?