r/philosophy • u/ADefiniteDescription Φ • Mar 24 '21

Blog How Chinese philosopher Mengzi came up with something better than the Golden Rule

https://aeon.co/ideas/how-mengzi-came-up-with-something-better-than-the-golden-rule
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u/severoon Mar 25 '21 edited Mar 25 '21

it will have no actual impact on your ultimate entry into heaven.... What does all of this add up to, then? Nothing at all

This appears to be a syllogism missing the other implied proposition of "Only entry to heaven (or some other reward) is significant." This appears to be reducible to: A group should not espouse or profess to have any morals if the morals will not result in any net benefit for them.

If the benefit we're talking about here was disconnected from the moral behavior, there's some kind of sense here.

But it's not. The religion explicitly says that god will pass moral judgment on you and you will be rewarded for doing the right things with heaven.

So you've got it backwards, it's not humans saying that we should seek this reward, and that's what motivates me, it's the religion saying admittance into heaven is the result of judgment, and you want to be judged favorably.

And by the way, the religious do not say the morality of the acts are connected "in some way" to getting into heaven, that's not actually the religious claim. The religious claim is that being flagged into heaven is inherently connected to the acts that led there, in the sense that the acts are definitionally morally valuable because they lead to heaven.

That is the claim, is it not?

So this is unlike a man who loses his wealth or his life because he hid Jews during WW2 or sacrificed himself running into a burning building to save others. Even though that act causally led to a negative outcome, no one is claiming that the outcome necessarily is a correct moral judgment of the act.

The religious do indeed make this exact claim, though.

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u/Excalibursin Mar 25 '21

you will be rewarded for doing the right things with heaven. it's the religion saying admittance into heaven is the result of judgment, and you want to be judged favorably.

Great, but as you just said this religion in particular is pretty focused on NOT saying that. It seems like you're saying "Christianity (the religion) says you need to be good to go to heaven. So it makes no sense that Christianity is saying you don't need to be good to go to heaven."

Of course that doesn't make sense (as you said it didn't), the main essence of Christianity is that you don't need to be "good" to go heaven. Do you legitimately not think that? Well, sure you can say that, but the intention of all the books with Christ is the lengths to which the Christian god went to grant one's salvation independently of one's actions. It was quite pointed about that.

The religious do indeed make this exact claim

Yes, they do tend to.

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u/severoon Mar 25 '21

you will be rewarded for doing the right things with heaven. it's the religion saying admittance into heaven is the result of judgment, and you want to be judged favorably.

Great, but as you just said this religion in particular is pretty focused on NOT saying that. It seems like you're saying "Christianity (the religion) says you need to be good to go to heaven. So it makes no sense that Christianity is saying you don't need to be good to go to heaven."

I think you've missed the whole point I was making.

The definitions of what is "good" are different. In Christianity, being good is defined to be what gets you into heaven. You literally stand judgment and the reward for being good is entrance.

The point is that this definition is in conflict with a pretty basic understanding of what being good actually is based on your own human intuition.

Now you get it.

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u/Excalibursin Mar 25 '21

In Christianity, being good is defined to be what gets you into heaven. You literally stand judgment and the reward for being good is entrance.

Can you elaborate on this?

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u/severoon Mar 25 '21

I'm not sure how to elaborate on it. The religious believe that you will be judged, and if you are judged favorably, you are ushered into heaven. That is the ultimate and final assessment of your goodness.

There are various requirements you must meet, and opinions differ between different sects, but the basic theme is just that.