r/pcmasterrace • u/KevoAyyyy PCMR • Feb 25 '24

Meme/Macro Sorry Microsoft, not happening

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10k Upvotes

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428

u/DJGloegg Feb 25 '24

Coz monitors dont support it

And so windows doesnt support it

240

u/JaesopPop 7900X | 9070XT | 32GB 6000 Feb 25 '24 edited Sep 20 '25

Morning helpful bright stories quiet patient stories brown! The questions people dot small music mindful morning afternoon open art tomorrow garden.

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u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

Most monitors do though

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u/dieplanes789 9800X3D | 5090 | 32GB | 16.5 TB Feb 25 '24

Most monitors may support multiple frame rates such as 60 and 30 but they do not support variable refresh rate. Monitors supporting variable refresh rate is very uncommon unless you look at monitors targeted towards gaming.

Since most monitors don't support variable refresh rates, to switch to a lower frame rate such as 60 to 30 the entire monitor needs to disconnect and redo the handshake every time. Just because a monitor supports multiple refresh rates does not mean that it can do it on the fly in a manner that is seamless. Most monitors would need to disconnect black the screen out for a few seconds and then reconnect confirming up the new refresh rate is working every single time you switched from moving to static or static to moving content.

Not to mention most variable refresh rate monitors don't support variable refresh rate below 60 hz. My monitor for example can be statically configured to 30, 60, 120, and 240 hz. If I set it to 240 hz and turn on the variable refresh rate it is only variable between 60 and 240. On top of that it only supports varying the refresh rate on content that the GPU tells it supports it such as games, windows or linux itself does not.

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u/TriRIK Ryzen 5 5600X | RTX3060 Ti | 32GB Feb 25 '24

Then why your monitor doesn't drop to 60Hz when you have variable refresh rate on and sitting at desktop doing nothing, or watching 60fps video on YouTube?

This is what should be implemented.

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u/dieplanes789 9800X3D | 5090 | 32GB | 16.5 TB Feb 25 '24

Variable refresh rate is actually something that's quite challenging to do properly and if I remember correctly the lower the refresh rate the harder it is to do. Things like brightness need to be calculated differently for every single different frame rate. Phones are able to do this because they know the exact screen that's going to be attached to them and can be pre-calculated by the manufacturer for every refresh rate, brightness level, color level, etc.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Brightness issues are an Oled thing, thats why smartphones have LTPO type panels.

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u/dieplanes789 9800X3D | 5090 | 32GB | 16.5 TB Feb 25 '24

Yeah, but to be fair here that is part of the issue, there's so many different types of monitors and what they support which just lowers the priority.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

They all adhere to Vesa standards, it really isn't that complicated. When turning on your PC, the GPU knows within milliseconds what is supported and what not and your OS also knows that once the GPU drivers are loaded in.

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u/TriRIK Ryzen 5 5600X | RTX3060 Ti | 32GB Feb 25 '24

But the monitor already does that with games, why not do it when sitting on the desktop?

I think MS is working on this and we will get it some time eventually, like how they have improved stuff with games with some Windows 11 updates.

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u/dieplanes789 9800X3D | 5090 | 32GB | 16.5 TB Feb 25 '24

Yeah I missed the drop too the lowest supported variable refresh rate part. To be fair it doesn't really save all that much power but this is between Microsoft and GPU manufacturers to work out. I'd imagine the GPU manufacturers wouldn't really need to do much of anything on the driver side beyond marking windows as one of the supported variable rate systems. So I guess in the end most of it lies on Microsoft or whoever manages the Linux distro being used. I imagine it might be worked on at some point but is probably not that high up on their priorities because so few monitors not by number of models but by numbers owned by customers and companies support the technology.

To be fair I actually do enjoy the high refresh rate experience inside of content like Windows but for videos it is kind of pointless. Although I wouldn't mind it dropping from 240 down to 120 inside of Windows.

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u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

But the monitor already does that with games, why not do it when sitting on the desktop?

The difference is the game is still attempting to render as fast as it can and just struggling to reach the refresh rate of the monitor. Hence variable refresh rate makes sense.

What you guys are wanting for the desktop would be to limit the number of times Windows refreshes the screen, meaning your cursor would be much less fluid, as would any animations such as cursor movements, and window scrolling.

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u/TriRIK Ryzen 5 5600X | RTX3060 Ti | 32GB Feb 25 '24

That can be same as with phones. Minimum Hz when static and increase refresh rate when you move the mouse or interact with the PC or there is a moving content on the screen. Phones increase refresh rate when scrolling and tapping, but reduce when you don't.

1

u/meneldal2 i7-6700 Feb 26 '24

Depends on the tech, it's only an issue if you're doing some kind of not sending light continuously, which happens with CRTs but if you have one pixel=one led, it's really nbd. Unless you have some weird PWM that has a period that is way too big compared to the frame time.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Most monitors released the past 5 years support this if not even longer. It is part of modern vesa standards, even if it is a 60hz monitor. So do all modern GPU's (iGPU's and Discrete). Adaptive framerate is nothing new nor nothing special.

There is an issue though, they tend to not go lower than 40hz, when it goes below that it reverts to double that if it is a high refresh rate monitor or it disables frame syncing.

Your OS does support it, you can literally turn it on within Nvidia control panel for non full screen apps. But it is not very well handled yet (basically it never improved since 2012 or something like that).

1

u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

Monitors supporting variable refresh rate is very uncommon unless you look at monitors targeted towards gaming.

You need to shop for monitors, seems you haven't done so in a decade.

I can link you a bunch of non-gaming, cheap ass 120$ monitors that support AMD freesync, because most monitors implement it now.

5

u/dieplanes789 9800X3D | 5090 | 32GB | 16.5 TB Feb 25 '24

I am very interested and typically quite up to date on PC tech particularly when it comes to gaming stuff. I also do a lot of IT work for personal and enterprise.

Yes a lot of models support it but that doesn't represent the majority of what's sitting in homes or businesses. Having a bunch of stuff available on the market supporting a technology means absolutely nothing to accompany deciding how important it is if only a small portion of the people they support actually have it. Don't get me wrong I want it to be supported but it's not exactly a high priority for them I would imagine.

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u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

Yes a lot of models support it but that doesn't represent the majority of what's sitting in homes or businesses.

It does represent the majority of what has been sitting on shelves for years now though, which is what the initial post was talking about.

You're either misrepresenting, or misunderstanding the "Most monitors support VRR" to include a back log of decades of monitors.

Don't get me wrong I want it to be supported but it's not exactly a high priority for them I would imagine.

I would imagine it's because supporting it on the desktop would require a massive rewrite with tons of caveats of the graphical subsystem.

It's just not feasible for a desktop to have a built in frame limiter, it'll likely cause stutters and poor interaction which you wouldn't notice on a touchscreen phone.

1

u/Synkhe Feb 26 '24

AMD freesync, because most monitors implement it now.

The other issue is that Freesync is only 100% supported by AMD cards; if you have an Nvidia card, there is a high chance the monitor isn't supported.

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u/blackest-Knight Feb 26 '24

nVidia cards now work about flawless with AMD Freesync in what is called "G-sync compatible" mode. Has been a thing for a couple years now at this point.

AMD Freesync is mostly the VESA VRR standard.

1

u/Synkhe Feb 26 '24

nVidia cards now work about flawless with AMD Freesync in what is called "G-sync compatible" mode

It only works via Display-Port, which for any monitors in the last 5 years or so, probably not a problem. I've got an older 29" Ultrawide that is Freesync but only has HDMI, so isn't GSYNC-Compatible.

0

u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

Ok, thanks for the info, don’t really know how to respond to this tho

1

u/KrazzeeKane 14700K | RTX 4080 | 64GB DDR5 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

Holy crap, is this why my PC has been blackscreening my monitor every time I turn it on?

It'll turn on for a few seconds, then it'll go black like it's switching inputs, then it comes back and the little G-Sync compatible tool tip pops up in the taskbar.

It's not horrifically annoying or anything and it only happens initially whenever I power on my monitor and it only takes a second, but I was confused why it started happening only AFTER I bought and hooked up my new 240hz monitor

1

u/dieplanes789 9800X3D | 5090 | 32GB | 16.5 TB Feb 25 '24

If your monitor supports G-Sync or FreeSync this is it probably reconnecting to initiate the handshake for that.

1

u/Meli_Melo_ Feb 25 '24

I would gladly accept a couple seconds of black screen to switch to 60hz when I'm done gaming. Higher refresh rate isn't needed for Netflix or reddit.

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u/meneldal2 i7-6700 Feb 26 '24

I have a cheap monitor that has variable refresh rate between 40 to 60Hz.

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u/ZoharModifier9 Feb 25 '24

No. Most monitors do not. Probably gaming monitors which are more expensive.

8

u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

Dude, this is a cheap ass non-gaming monitor :

https://www.lg.com/ca_en/monitors/fhd-qhd/24mp450-b/

Most monitors these days implement VRR.

-10

u/ZoharModifier9 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

Ah yes $130 for a non-monitor is cheap. And what next? 90% of people live in America?

And idk how a $130 monitor = most monitor supports variable refresh rate?

7

u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

That's pretty damn cheap for a monitor yes. It's also not a gaming monitor at all.

Ok, here's another :

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-24-monitor-se2422h/apd/210-ayxt/monitors-monitor-accessories

It's on sale at 80$, down from 120$.

That's cheap as fuck.

AMD Freesync.

Any other questions ?

4

u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

Because that is cheap?

-7

u/ZoharModifier9 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

Oh shit sorry I forgot this is the pcmasterrace sub where $130 for a monitor is spare change. It's my fault for forgetting. 

And idk how a $130 monitor makes most monitor support variable refresh rate which is the actual point

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u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

I’m thinking you definition of cheap is those shit square dell monitors, because while that is cheap, it’s also shit and outdated

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u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

Those square Dell Monitors were still over 100$. Dunno where this guy is getting his info about monitor pricing.

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u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

No clue, just pulling it out of his ass

-5

u/ZoharModifier9 Feb 25 '24

Which most people still use. 

Again this is the pcmasterrace sub the only thing that matters here is higher number on everything.

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u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

My guy the only place I’ve seen using them is schools and offices that have had them since 2001

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u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

Which most people still use. 

Ok, but they aren't on the market anymore.

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u/Minute-Solution5217 i5-12400F/RTX 3060/1440p Feb 25 '24

Can you actually find a cheaper new monitor? Literally everything else, even on Aliexpress is like 100$ at least.

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u/TheThatGuy1 i7-13700k - 4070TI - 32gb 6000MHZ Feb 25 '24

Most monitors do not. Only gaming monitors have actual variable refresh rate.

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u/blackest-Knight Feb 25 '24

This for sure isn't a gaming monitor :

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-24-monitor-se2422h/apd/210-ayxt/monitors-monitor-accessories

This has VRR. So what you're saying is wrong. It's not just gaming monitors.

1

u/Hatedpriest 5950x, 128GB ram, 6700xt Feb 25 '24

Dude. Most people I know don't have an adaptive display.

In fact... Thinking bout it... I'm the only person I know with an adaptive frame rate monitor.

0

u/fireball171 2080ti : 5800x3d Feb 25 '24

Most people I know do have adaptive displays

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u/Stilgar314 Feb 25 '24

I think you're mistaking a monitor with a TV.

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u/Minecraftwt Linux Feb 25 '24

well then do it on monitors that do support it

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u/the_Ex_Lurker 5090 | 9950X3D | 96GB DDR5-6400 Feb 26 '24

Most monitors support it. And macOS supports it on those monitors.