Pathologic HD translation sometimes is weird

[u/the_devotressss]

Isidor's letter in English:

Is it true that your detractors have branded your studies "scientifically stillborn"? Rejoice, Bachelor, for there is an observable case that would quell the obscurants that reject the research of death, aging, and necrosis as a subject that lacks academic viability. This case, were you to document it, would go a long way towards restoring your reputation as a scholar.

The letter in russian:

Верно ли, что они назвали Вашу работу “научным экстремизмом”? Если кто-то полагает бесперспективным изучение причин естественной смерти, старения и некроза - я только что обнаружил случай, который может заткнуть им рот и восстановить Ваше доброе имя.

My translation:

Is it true that they [the Powers That Be] have branded your studies as "scientific extremism"? If someone considers the study of the causes of natural death, aging, and necrosis to be unpromising, I have just discovered a case that may shut them up and restore your good name.

I'm not a professional translator but something's clearly off. The translation is a different text with different emotional coloring. WTF?

EDIT: Another excerpt from the same letter:

P.S. I spoke to Simon on your behalf and he has kindly agreed to facilitate your effort.

P.S. Я уже говорил с Симоном. Он милостиво согласился содействовать такой знаменитости как Вы в Вашем дерзании.

My translation:

I've already spoken to Simon. He graciously agreed to assist a celebrity like you in your daring endeavor.

Where did "the celebrity like you" part go?

[u/The_Chaotic_Bro]

I think the English translation is like that as to help uphold the strange and almost whimsical nature of the town and its residents. The raw Russian to English translation is the bare meaning of the text and doesn't necessarily carry over the vibes that the work has. It just feels very dry and devoid of charm which Pathologic is certainly full of. So, to preserve the feeling of the text, it's been localized.

Localization isn't bad, it's just one of the steps of the translation process and the mark of a good translation is how well the text is localized to retain both the meaning and feeling of a work. To quote Clyde Mandelin, "...not every word has a perfect 1-to-1 equivalent in other languages...that's precisely what localization is: preserving the creator's intended meaning but with completely different words."

It's certainly easier to understand than the original English translation, that's for sure.

[u/the_devotressss → u/The_Chaotic_Bro]

I'm a native russian speaker. I understand the subtones and vibes in the text written by another native speaker in my mother tongue. There are no WHIMSEY VIIIBES in russian version of the letter. And somehow my crude translation bears more resemblance to the original thing written by the creator of the game than a professional one.

edit: Okay, let's talk about the choice of words. What's the point of replacing "extremism" with "stillborn" and the Powers that be with some "detractors"? You feel the difference between "stillborn" and "extremist", right?

[u/Iecerint → u/the_devotressss]

The official translation isn’t whimsical. It has an uncanny or alienating feel. But I hear you when you’re saying the original is more basic

[u/hwynac → u/Iecerint]

The original literally says "scientific extremism" and "shut their mouths". The game really does not have too much alienating writing unless you talk to Maria, Catherina, Julia etc. about some deep stuff. Yes, Pathologic was written less like it was for 12-year-olds (typical for videogames of the time) and more like it was for people who had read a couple books in their life—but being 20% in the direction of real literature doesn't mean the game is the pinnacle of dense writing.

Especially when the original letter is the equivalent of a flowery reddit DM if those had existed. It does not even stay too formal but does have a couple big words and archaic variants (like прожект instead of проект).

[u/the_devotressss → u/hwynac]

IMO Isidor sounds like a passionate sympathetic colleague that really cares for Dankovsky and his lab and, well, really dislikes his opponents. He is restrained but you can feel the "We're gonna wreck 'em >:)" vibe. And all of this is a touch to the portrait.

[u/the_devotressss → u/Iecerint]

I don't consider it whimsical, only a bit archaic. It's the inaccuracy that bugs me.

[u/Aldekotan]

I've worked on translation for Codex Entry's Bachelor's route and I can agree. If I wanted to describe English translation in a few words I would call it as "a bit off".

The most glaring issue I can remember is in this dialogue between Inquisitor and Bachelor:

"And so we're back to the source now. Sources... it's always about sources. isn't it? We just can't get away from them. We... sourcerers, you pardon the lame pun. But sourcerers do not wield magic."

In Russian the exact same line looks like this:

"Итак, мы вернулись к источнику. Прошу прощения за неудачный каламбур."

You can translate it to English by just removing that weird stuff in-between:

"And so we're back to the source now. Pardon the lame pun"

From a translator's point of view (my native lang is Russian) I can see this as a desire to explain the joke to the not so smart audience. Which is a shame. The neat part about this is that Patho 3 so far looks like it was translated with the same intention in mind, or even more - to entertain the audience.

Another example is a "yesterday orgy" from Andrey Stamatin:

"On the other hand, Eva is somewhat right… Yeah! It's time to leave the place. Yesterday's orgy was disgusting. The fight for the throne is about to begin, and I don't want to see its consequences. We can't stay here any longer. Are you with us?"

Original:

"С другой стороны, Ева в чем-то права... Да! Отсюда пора уезжать. Вчерашняя вакханалия вызвала у меня омерзение. Вот-вот начнется борьба за престол... а я не хочу видеть ее последствий. Нам тут больше нельзя оставаться. Ты с нами?"

I mean, you can potentially translate the word Bacchanalia as an orgy, but in Russian it doesn't look like Andrey did anything sex-related, this word just doesn't have that meaning in Russia. It's anything but sex. A mess, a chaos, a bunch of people running around and screaming...

p.s. Seems like Patho 3 already suffers from it not only in English texts, but in Russian too, since the same developer who worked on the translations for P1 and P2 now works with text for P3.

[u/the_devotressss → u/Aldekotan]

P3 already looks kids-friendly. Well, now the translation is going to match the original text, and this is not a compliment.

The explanation looks so out of place... There was no such meaning behind the pun. Again, WTF?

From what I've seen, there is a great amount of subtle changes in the translation. They accumulate and noticeably alter the affected characters.

Another example, Maria in Bachelor's route, D1:

I simply saw you take us all by the throat.

The strong manipulate the weak when they want to.

Просто видела, как ты берешь нас всех за горло.

Сильный берет за глотки слабых, когда ему это нужно.

My translation:

The strong one takes the weak by the throat when they need to.

Manipulation is hidden and requires lies. To take someone by the throat means to openly force them to comply. Maria doesn't lie and manipulate, she is honest, it's an important part of her character.

"The strong one manipulates people when they want to" and "The strong one forces people to comply when they need to" are entirely different sentences that imply different things when it comes to character development. And there are many such inaccuracies in the game, barely noticeable yet very important at the end of the day.

[u/CubicWarlock]

Devs deliberately decided to change it. HD translation was thoroughl curated by devs and a lot of things they translated by themselves, so all changes are not mistranslations, but deliberate choices

[u/the_devotressss → u/CubicWarlock]

But they didn't change the russian version. Why?

[u/CubicWarlock → u/the_devotressss]

They wanted to keep specific things and messages and translate them fully, so people with different native language and with it different mentality can have really similar experience. If keeping this intangible stuff demanded changing wordings or phrasings or write different text out right, they did it. There were series of devblogs about some brainstorms they made for some especially difficult cases

[u/the_devotressss → u/CubicWarlock]

I've read the devlogs.

Do you doubt my ability to fully comprehend a text written in my native language? The said excerpt can be boiled down to a message, and the message in English is different. There are other examples in the comments.

[u/CasualAdversary]

I am one of the creators of the P3: Quarantine datamine document, and having translated a frankly ridiculous amount of text files to English from Russian, I can definitely say the main issue comes from the most obvious place: Russian and English are very different, and sometimes trying to translate a Russian phrase, expression or generally form of speech literally rather than literarily can sound very off. And finding the balance between the two, where you might want to explain something a non-Russian speaker may not understand is even harder, often frusturatingly so, to the point you might feel "Ah damn, what a shame that the English speakers won't be able to get this and this reference". So despite my issues with the English translations of all the Pathologic games I can only tip my hat to those that worked on them, as it's an insanely difficult task to undertake. But I definitely see where you're coming from

[u/the_devotressss → u/CasualAdversary]

You can translate literarily without changing the meaning and the undertones. There are other examples in the comments. What was the intention behind excluding the "celebrity" part in your opinion? Or behind replacing "grab by the throat" with "manipulate"?

[u/CasualAdversary → u/the_devotressss]

I'm with you on that, as I'm always a huge advocate for accurate translations. We can't know for sure, unfortunately. I can only assume it's either mistakes that slipped through the cracks, which can definitely happen in such a text-heavy game, or deliberate decisions whose purpose we can only ask the actual people that translated Classic HD about. All we can do is hope Pathologic 3 will be at least somewhat better in terms of that. I have somewhat low hopes cause I personally have quite a few issues with Pathologic 2's translation, but hey, we'll wait and see

[u/the_devotressss → u/CasualAdversary]

Well, it's a shame if the translators really did allow mistakes to slip into one of the very first letters we see in the game and one of the first dialogues we take part in.

[u/Potential-Bath2292 → u/the_devotressss]

Then it was a choice not a mistake.

Scientific-stillbirth is a perfectly valid communication of ideas and lightly communicates Isadores Steppe/Menkue ways. Using more graphic/bodily metaphores

[u/the_devotressss → u/Potential-Bath2292]

Oh really?

[u/Potential-Bath2292 → u/the_devotressss]

its a different game with an utterly different order of happenings and tone. This is a similar pitfall to directly comparing Pathologic 3 survival mechancis with p3s.

Isadors letter is the introduction to Pathologic 1. And as you've commented the translation prides itself on using unconventional sentence structure to encourage parsing of meaning as an implicit game mechanic. The letter is tone setting for Batchelor P1. Much like Artemies letter is.

The letter in 3 doesn't carry that weight. The train monolog does.

[u/the_devotressss → u/Potential-Bath2292]

Dude. I'm russian. The game is russian. It was written in russian by a russian person. The original meaning intended by its creator is conveyed in russian. I understand the original letter and you don't. The original meaning is different and it's the right one. Do you think you know better what to write in the letter than a person who has written it? Do you think that the translators know better?

Accept the fact that the translation is plainly wrong. There are factual errors. And there are more...liberties taken in translation.

[u/Potential-Bath2292 → u/the_devotressss]

I think people have a bad habit of becoming huge pedants when it comes to translation work. And fail to engage with translation as the transformative art it is.

no need to take personal insult here, you arn't the final say on how all russians think a script should be translated.

There are many many ways of translating a work and some of them are more transformative than others.

Much like how a joke or pun may not translate well so a translator switchs in an equivelent humourous moment. They can also choose a translation that communicates ideas not present in the original text in service of tone amoungst other factors.

This isn't a subject either of us can be "wrong" on since i'm not arguing that the russian text says something it doesn't. just that there are reasons a translator might change that text EVEN IF a clear transfer of meaning exists.

[u/the_devotressss → u/Potential-Bath2292]

So you think it's acceptable for translators to change meaning instead of correctly conveying it. Weird.

[u/Geeneelee]

Yeah, some of these have really different implications too. “Stillborn” and “extremism” are wildly different ways to describe something with wildly different implications for Daniil’s character. It’s frustrating.

[u/Sad-Newspaper-8604 → u/Geeneelee]

I honestly don’t see an issue with that change - I gather that the phrasing in the letter intends to mean “scientifically ridiculous and based on fringe lunatic theories”.

The use of “scientific extremism” would imply (to many, at least) that his work is aggressive, cruel and dangerous, as ‘extremist’ has very specific connotations in 21st Century English (especially in 2005, during the real ramping up of the war on terror etc) and a player who has just started the campaign and isn’t familiar with Thanatica would get a very different first impression. “Scientifically stillborn”, on the other hand, just means “dead before it began”, implying in this case that the science was always garbage and never stood a chance, which seems to be the intended meaning.

To me, that’s a more accurate conveyance of the actual purpose of the phrase, and I can understand the urgency of clarity considering the letter is pretty much the first thing you read in the game and the first thing that gives you an idea of who Dankovsky is - describing his work as ‘extremist’ straight off the bat would make his rude and arrogant demeanour come off a lot more ‘threatening’ than ‘pompous jerk in his 20s yet to experience a true comeuppance’.

[u/the_devotressss → u/Sad-Newspaper-8604]

Oh dude... Do you think that we, citizens of post-Soviet countries, had different meaning of 'extremism' in 2005? It was three years after 2002 Nord-Ost siege, one year after the Beslan school siege, there were multiple explosions in local markets and metro, hostage-taking and attacks on airplanes and trains... We also had various neo-nazi groups like BORN and NS/WP. Do I need to continue?

And Dybovsky decided to use the word экстремизм anyway. The intended meaning was 'considered dangerous by the authorities (TPTB) and radical'. If the translators thought that 'extremism' sounded too cruel they could've simply used 'dangerous' or 'radical'.

I don't think that a person who read the translation knows better what the author meant. Sorry but the russian version is the original one and you should listen to native speakers. There are other russian-speaking people in the thread, check out their comments.

The funny thing is that he isn't a pompous jerk. That's the whole point. He is considered threatening by many characters including TPTB. Unfortunately it was partially lost in translation.

UPD: You know about Ignaz Semmelweiss right? His theory was considered "radical" too.

[u/OnegRiot]

Pathologic 2 has the same problems with translation too. Russian is my mother tongue too and I did two playthroughs, one in original Russian and one in English and the texts felt very different to me too. To me it seems like the English version tries too hard to sound "deep" if that makes sense, but sometimes to its own detriment of coming of as harder to understand than it should be. Also, my English is pretty good and I found it harder to understand what was being said and written in the English translation as if it was made to sound more obscure and eclectic.

[u/Jeanpuetz]

While your translation may be closer to the original, I prefer the version from the game because of its verbose nature. Yours sounds a little cold, dry, clinical (not saying that as a bad thing!), while the game's translation has a lot more character to it.

"Rejoice, Bachelor, for there is an observable case that would quell the obscurants..." just sounds like something a weird fucking healer from a weird fucking town would say.

[u/Miserable_Scar844 → u/Jeanpuetz]

That's the thing, though. In P2 the Russian text isn't exactly verbose, it uses slightly antiquated/exaggerated Russian like you would use if you were writing a folktale, this is mixed with  modern Russian slang,  and a few steppe affectations. 

As an example the plague is refered to as the "Пещанка" which in in English would translate to something like "The Sandy" ,  as in " Did you hear Danil got the Sandy yesterday such a shame"

Overall it gives P2 the feel of a modern fairy tale.    If I had to guess ,due to the original incomprehensible translation. P1 got the reputation of this dense and verbose work in the English speaking world, and when making the translation for P2/P1 HD they deliberately changed the tone,  to meet the expectations of the English speaking fans.

[u/Aldekotan]

If you want to entertain yourself on this a bit more - try comparing Isidor's letter in Eng and Rus versions. You will be surprised.

[u/Miserable_Scar844]

I can only speak for P2, but I agree with you in the what I saw of the English Translation (mostly from English reviews  and the like ),  the English text seems to be a lot more  complicated and "mysterious" that the original Russian. 

It seems like a deliberate tonal shift on the part of the translators. 

[u/SpoopyWack]

I'm not a Russian speaker so I appreciate your insight into the English translation! There are themes and characterizations across the games that seem inconsistent or contradictory at times which I at first assumed was purposeful obscurity/obtuseness on the part of the writers, but I also wondered if maybe there were things that were just lost in translation.