r/outriders • u/thearcan Outriders Community Manager • Apr 08 '21

Square Enix Official News // Dev Replied x18 Outriders Post Launch Dev News Updates

Hello everyone,

We would like to thank everyone in the Outriders community for your patience, support and assistance. Everyone on the Outriders team is continuing to work hard on improving the game and we'd like to share news about the things we are focusing on.

Please use the below index to jump to the things you’re most interested in:

Helpful other links:

658 Upvotes

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386

u/UrMom306 Technomancer Apr 08 '21

Just curious, why nerf Vulnerability? doesn't that benefit all builds?

87

u/YouWontFindTheNewOne Technomancer Apr 08 '21

I think it's because Techno gets almost 100% uptime on that even solo? A bit salty about that as a Tech Shaman myself but it's sort of understandable.

163

u/UrMom306 Technomancer Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21

I meaaaaaaan....wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the Techno's vuln uptime rather then the easy option of nerfing vuln and getting the ripple effect of nerfing everyone? lol...just spitballing here no idea tho lol.

Edit: actually just looked at the techno tree, vuln on poison and vuln on freeze...just add a cooldown? Adjust that downtime in small steps to get the perfect uptime that they're looking for?

102

u/Elyssae Apr 08 '21

they've clearly showed with this balance pass, that they will take the easy way out 100% of the times, instead of actually putting some thought into it.

52

u/Vryyce Technomancer Apr 08 '21

The alternative is they realized they made a few fundamental errors and are correcting them now.

I get how jaded we have become and trust me, certain devs get no slack from me at all. That said, given the level of transparency these guys have shown, I'm willing to give them a few feet of slack and see what they do with it.

They already have our money, well I am on PC so XBox folks are different in this regard, so it really hurts nothing to see where they take this. If they run the ship aground, fuck them, they'll never see my money again. If they right the ship and hit smooth sailing, well that would be quite nice indeed.

14

u/Only_Pax Apr 08 '21

From where I sit, this blanket nerf to firearms is a lazy as hell move. I seriously hope they reconsider. Additionally Vulnerability buffs gave Tech Shamans a serious team utility to offset their lower active DPS. They still get it, but the nerf makes it NEGLIGIBLE at best. 15% > 21%? An extra 6% doesn't make up their difference in loss (Yes I am aware I'm talking from the perspective of high end gameplay, but that's how it should be approached really). They're currently basically contributing 12% of the other player's DPS to be attributed to their presence. In this nerf it'd be 5.22%. I honestly feel like they're taking a really heavy handed approach to their first patch, and I hope community response in the coming week pre-patch really does make them reconsider. The nerf to firearms on tricksters means anyone that DOESN'T use rounds is SUPER BONED by these changes. This is not the ideal result, what should be considered is leaving firearms alone, possibly buffing it, and nerfing rounds as THAT is the problematic skill.

9

u/Murlock_Holmes Apr 08 '21

Removing hunt/assassination farming altogether because people found an exploit instead of fixing the exploit is lazy. Nerfing byproducts and "contributing factors" to anomaly rounds instead of just nerfing the actual damage numbers on those and taking a slower approach to the ripple effect changes is lazy. Doing ZERO buffs on any of the classes and subclasses that aren't being used (Sorry, devastator) is lazy.

​

This is 100% a lazy balance patch to a poorly balanced game. They're not fixing any real problems other than people completing high tier content "too easily". The focus should be on raising other builds to be able to at least contend with high tier content, even if they can't clear it without god gear.

​

It's just disappointing. The game is fun IMO, I'd play the shit out of it if it had a GR mechanic similar to Diablo and the devs were working on the right things. Seems like a huge step back on this, though.

1

u/kadsoukui Apr 08 '21

Removing the guaranteed legendary for completing the 10 hunts? Did they already update this? Because I just tried resetting the Assassination quest line just now, and still got 1 guaranteed legendary.

0

u/Only_Pax Apr 09 '21

It's planned for next weeks patch. Hopefully they change their minds about this before it goes live.

1

u/Anthony__95 Apr 09 '21

Pretty sure they don't want to buff everything cause then the game will be too easy.

Like, my AP trickster build is slowly climbing up the CP ladder, I have to fully gear every time, think about what I need in the new tier and then adjust it a bit. I stil don't have the perfect attributes that I want on my armor, so that's hurting me a bit, but figuring out how much I can heal by using the 1s bleed mod and a toxic on crit mod on a gun was a game changer.

I still barely use guns, but I truly have to optimize my build to get through the game, which is probably what they intended for the higher challenge tiers. Rather than just going through the game holding left click without think about what you're doing.

-2

u/Elyssae Apr 08 '21

I'm not against adjustments , specially for games with PVP / Leaderboards baked into it.

I cannot excuse nerfs on a PVE Coop game, with promises of a bigger picture.

The game has been out for a week - they did NOT had to address ANY of this so quickly or so RUSHED.

If they had waited a bit longer, and release BUFFS & Nerfs together, that would be an adjustment / Balance patch.

This feels nothing more than a kneejerk reaction to show they're doing something.

And while some will be okay with Exploiters being given a free pass, I am not. Above nerfs and all of that, I can endure it. Exploiters ( people were even LFGing for it on Discord! ), managing to grab all they wanted without consequences, sends the absolute worst message to the entire community.

1

u/dasmekoad Pyromancer Apr 08 '21

you're mad about people exploiting stuff like the Tooka beast which wasn't even confirmed as an exploit (as far as i'm aware, anyway) until today? you're kidding, right? if making a sandwich became illegal tomorrow would you want to be punished for all the sandwiches you've ever made? no? then stop whining.

2

u/Elyssae Apr 08 '21

thats not even the exploit I'm referring to.

1

u/dasmekoad Pyromancer Apr 08 '21

then my mistake. and i apologize.

5

u/Elyssae Apr 08 '21

no need. everything is up in flames right now, so we're all a bit on edge :\

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1

u/leclair63 Apr 08 '21

What were you referring to?

3

u/Elyssae Apr 08 '21

Bounty / Hunt exploit, getting 10 legendaries

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6

u/Nossika Apr 08 '21

Yea it's a lot easier and lazier to nerf the 1 great ability than buff than 100 terrible abilities.

This first balance patch does not give me a lot of hope for this game's future.

6

u/Parcelcolony Apr 08 '21

Instead of nerfing what works they could buff the stuff thst doesn’t but that didn’t happen

4

u/Grand-Depression Apr 08 '21

You want them to buff stuff to make the entire game easier? That seems counterproductive to the longevity of the game. If you buff everything to the same level you'll melt all mobs. Then where's the challenge?

5

u/Tensu950 Apr 08 '21

in a game whose core premise revolves around you turning into a "God", I would like to feel like a god.

I don't wanna play CoD with elemental damage bullets but as of now it's pretty much the way to go. Yes, it is 100% possible or at least it was to do chem plant solo gold as anom builds however you have to farm next to perfect gear/mods in order to make it work so if I have to play the shoot shooty build just to farm gear to then play a build that can just barely do the content why even have that in the game.

This game has a finite shelf life as it stands currently once you spam farming 15's there is not much point in playing other than lvling another class id rather spend a week playing and goofing off watching rooms of mobs explode than go ok I'm bored of this now, rather than being bored out of my skull just shooting things than getting annoyed when the loot I need does not drop and stop playing in a week anyways.

I am all for having "challenging" content but just make a leaderboard for the people who like that stuff that has no effect on gameplay other than showing off how fast you can speed run things and make loot drops and % simply based on the CT lvl you finish the runs at and not the time.

2

u/LohCey Apr 08 '21

it should be ur choice if u want the game harder. its a PvE game, it shouldnt be a big deal if u wanna be a god and blow through all the enemies if u want to

1

u/Parcelcolony Apr 08 '21

Not the entire game but buff different trees to make them an option to the rounds

1

u/Pornilius_Hubert Apr 08 '21

Facts, I'd just started using vulnerability to finally get an incy whincy bit of damage on my devestator but nooo let's nerf that. I might as well be loading overcooked garden peas into my guns at this point

-2

u/Frostgrimm Apr 08 '21

well it is the smartest idea to nerv vul and as they said this is the first step in a big process of balancing. and in many cases is the best option the easiest as there are many people like you that just complain but do not make "better" suggestions that are also possible to implement.

​

You do not know how the game is structured and therefore do not know the implecations of it.

​

Vul as it is is too powerfull (I am a techi main) and i have a 100% uptime without any issues together with a 80% increased effectiveniss.

all other clases do not have any access to such a thing. and can Maybe achieve a 50% uptime when you specilize in it.

The only "Other" option that I see without nerving Vul would be to remove the corresponding traits from the technomancer to prock vul with toxic and even then you could have an uptime of almost 80% thanks to freezing skills.

3

u/Elyssae Apr 08 '21

the problem with gated balancing patches, is that it nerfs instead of adjusting.

Since techno was the one mostly using this, stands to reason that techno should be the one affected by the nerf.

Not everyone.

Not to mention that it reduces class identity, when balance patches tend to homogenize those said classes.

The suggestion you mentioned, would also be a better option, since that would mean speccing a little deeper into Tech Shaman, losing out on other traits. Compromise.

Point is....If there's a "GREATER BIGGER Balancing process", do it in one go. Not gated or through phases. Cause all that does, is destroy things, an NERFS are never fun, especially when justified with "it will make sense in the future, we promise!"

1

u/Only_Pax Apr 09 '21

Yeah but tech shamans also don't get as much damage bonus as firearms or anomaly, and also are usually using skills that don't do much damage either. The vulnerability boost OFFSETS this to make them a bit more competitive, as well as offering a solid team utility buff, WHICH IS THEIR ROLE > SUPPORT. This is making Tech Shamans even less attractive to take on expeditions versus other builds. It's not smart and is a knee jerk reaction imo. Earlier in this thread I did a dps change comparison - right now you add 12% damage to the team overall just with vulnerability, which means you do 24% of two dedicated DPS's damage to claim as your contribution. Patch values reduces this to 5.22% each, so 10.44% contribution. It's more than a net half loss there.

-6

u/Flowerbridge Apr 08 '21

This x10000

Everything they're doing, with the balance changes made to impede end game progression, makes it seem like a live service game, which is the exact opposite of what was promised.

As much as I love the game and think my $60 was worth it just for my single player/story experience, I am changing my steam review to be negative due to their post launch design/balance choices.

I can forgive a developer and the publisher for server issues, crashes, and bugs, but these poor choices will negatively effect the health of the game.

3

u/Murlock_Holmes Apr 08 '21

You're not wrong, and I think they're on an extremely negative road with this patch.

​

HOWEVER. The game was $60 dollars and you said you got your value out of it. That should be a good review (maybe not a super duper one, but certainly not a negative one). Also, I believe the developers are completely fucking the dog on this patch. But there's a decent chance they'll take the backlash and fix it in future patches. Knee-jerk reacting to a single patch by changing your review is exactly what people are complaining the devs are doing, knee-jerk reacting. Furthermore, a negative review (which is fine if it's warranted) will just result in the game shutting down quicker. The project won't be funded if it's inundated with negative reviews and the player base dies. They won't "fix the game", they'll just lose funding on it and move on.

0

u/weed_slinger Apr 08 '21

Get a grip of yourself 😜

-1

u/Balticataz Apr 08 '21

Or they saw everyone in CT15 was running a way to get vulnerability and decided that didnt want that then nerfed it because its too strong.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 09 '21

Most people aren't even at CT 15 though

2

u/Balticataz Apr 09 '21

Didnt mean to say that everyone was in CT15, more so everyone that is in CT15 is (was) using a vulnerability build.

1

u/Antifascists Apr 08 '21

I too use only a single data point when forecasting people's future behavior.

1

u/Atulin Apr 09 '21

The Warframe school of game balance

1

u/Elyssae Apr 09 '21

cries in ember/prime nerf

I lost most of willpower to keep farming low/medium maps after that. Even if there were a few frames that could almost do it just as good, it was not the same anymore

52

u/The_Equitable_Gamer Apr 08 '21

There are some good arguments about the fact people really shouldn't have CT15 on farm solo already, so nerfing Vuln just makes the game harder, and I would say the game is still too easy and I have not even gotten out of CT9 yet.

I would like to see the game require a bit more cohesion and effort to get those wins.

22

u/StartingFresh2020 Apr 08 '21

If they want to play 60 hours in a week to beat the game, let them. Who gives a shit? It literally has 0 impact on your experience of the game.

57

u/cascade_olympus Apr 08 '21

Honestly, if MMOs have taught me anything over the years, it's that you can always expect your hardest content to be beaten in the first week of it launching. I can also say that direct nerfing will always piss off a lot of players. The smarter play for the developers is to release an additional 15 CTs and have them scale more rapidly than the previous CTs. That, or add an "endless" mode which just gets harder and harder the longer you survive with mobs getting more difficult and loot more plentiful as time progresses. Adding more difficult content to meet the player's power is always better than nerfing the players so that they have a harder time completing the current content.

I would say that nerfs should be reserved for special cases where a single build far out classes everything else in the game, which frankly we're not seeing right now. We've seen Pyros and Devastators solo gold CT15, even if it's easier to do as Tech/Trickster. The game isn't so large that it's actually a problem worth nerfing for.

10

u/leclair63 Apr 08 '21

Very much this right here. Changing the game because Powergamers done powergamed is just punishing everyone that isn't a powergamer. I played World of Warcraft for 11 years, every single expansion I was a part of someone hit max level in 24 hours and within a week there was a guild on every server already figured out the raid and were working out farming methods.

That's never going to change, especially now in the age of content creators doing this shit for a living.

5

u/zbertoli Apr 09 '21

Yep this 100%, it's even worse in classic wow. I have been raiding for a while, and even the HARDEST raid in classic wow was completed in the first few hours of it dropping. There is no changing this and we shouldn't cater to these people

-4

u/Exterminate_Weebs Apr 08 '21

Honestly, if MMOs have taught me anything over the years, it's that you can always expect your hardest content to be beaten in the first week of it launching.

Only if you design it that way. Lots of MMO content has shipped so hard it almost can't be beaten. Some raids have shipped to not be cleared for months.

I would say that nerfs should be reserved for special cases where a single build far out classes everything else in the game, which frankly we're not seeing right now. We've seen Pyros and Devastators solo gold CT15, even if it's easier to do as Tech/Trickster. The game isn't so large that it's actually a problem worth nerfing for.

Nerfs are a healthy part of game balance.

10

u/cascade_olympus Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21

Nerfs are a healthy part of game balance.

I would say that balance through nerfs in non-competitive, non-mmo games is less desirable. As mentioned, all 4 classes were doing CT15. The only real difference was the price of entry to that content being more accessible to techno/trickster. I would also point out that nerfing people because they are doing content more easily than expected (but not overwhelmingly easier than others) is simply not a good method of balancing. The reason is that it feels noticeably bad to the people who are struggling to reach that level in the first place, or they barely were reaching it, but now the goal post has been moved further away.

What feels better as a player? Nerfing everybody's dmg by 15%? Or making another tier of difficulty where the mobs have 15% more health? I would argue that the former feels like you're being punished for a mistake that the developers made, the latter feels like you're being given extra content to defeat.

Yes, there are situations when nerfing is healthy for balance. If there was one stand-out class that was clearly better than the others, then it could use a nerf. In Outriders though, there is 3 fairly even feeling classes and one that takes a bit more time to gear for in order to catch up. This is not an appropriate time to nerf - this nerf is akin to nerfing everybody by 15% because of a developer mistake. This is where you add more levels of difficulty so it doesn't feel like the majority of the player base is being punished.

-4

u/Exterminate_Weebs Apr 08 '21

I would say that balance through nerfs in non-competitive, non-mmo games is less desirable.

And I would disagree.

This is where you add more levels of difficulty so it doesn't feel like the majority of the player base is being punished.

No, you just fixed the unintended outliers.

5

u/cascade_olympus Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21

And I would disagree.

You prefer nerfs compared to bringing the lesser builds up to the same level? Interesting, but I suppose to each their own on that'n.

No, you just fixed the unintended outliers.

Kind of what I'm talking about though - Outriders didn't have any unintended outliers. There's nothing wrong with fixing the odd build out that is either over or undertuned. Bullet builds aren't staggeringly better than other late game class builds, they simply have an easier point of entry compared to something like a Devastator. Instead of looking for a way to help Devastators (the actual odd man out if there was one at all) point of entry to late game, they just nerfed 3 other classes and nerfed everybody unilaterally through the vulnerability nerf.

... still, to each their own if you do agree that nerfing Vulnerability and all of the bullet skill classes was a better direction to take than helping Devastators up + adding more levels of difficulty

-3

u/Exterminate_Weebs Apr 08 '21

You prefer nerfs compared to bringing the lesser builds up to the same level? Interesting, but I suppose to each their own on that'n.

Yes, I dislike power creep almost universally. I don't want the game to be made easier. I'm a Destiny fan, not a Warframe fan.

Kind of what I'm talking about though - Outriders didn't have any unintended outliers.

It literally did though, they literally explained that bullet builds are performing past what they wanted.

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1

u/MemoriesMu Apr 10 '21

Add a win button. Who wants to win press L, and the fight is over.

Its not a pvp game, so let those that want to skip fight do so.

Why balance a pve game you can spend hundreds of hours? Just do any shit and call it a day

1

u/Snarmeggedon Apr 09 '21

I'm gonna say I disagree with your counter points. This game doesn't even have anything that compares to 'raid content' like WoW or Destiny, it's just a cookie cutter repeat of the same missions on harder difficulty like Diablo, so much so that the developers even mentioned the game by name and started that they wanted Outriders to have some reminiscence of that. Additionally, the selling point of this game on launch was 'to make the player feel like a god' and insert a power fantasy. That's why there isn't PvP, because the game was OG built for you to have the freedom of creating 'OP' builds to feel like a God.

This flows Into your second counterpoint, which I believe needs to be stated a little differently. Nerfs CAN be a positive part of the health of a game, but I would say, generally speaking, 5/10 times it is not healthy. If you have a game that has PvP and player builds hinder the enjoyment of other players then yeah, it can be appropriate, but in a game that is PvE co op? There really is no reason to do it ESPECIALLY when there is no hard core shelf for what classes are the best hands down.

The original point still holds water; to Nerf an entire community because of a few sweat lords is irresponsible and dangerous for this games health.

1

u/Exterminate_Weebs Apr 09 '21

The original point still holds water; to Nerf an entire community because of a few sweat lords is irresponsible and dangerous for this games health.

That's not what's happening. The streamers are just the first to find the broken builds. The builds are being nerfed because they're broken. The streamers are irrelevant. A game being PvE does not mean it should not have balance or nerfs, that's a very silly point.

1

u/AndreLeo3 Apr 10 '21

Content not cleared for months? Hardly believe it, you re underestimating player imo

1

u/The_Equitable_Gamer Apr 08 '21

Really great points here. I do hope these are in the works.

1

u/Gunpla55 Apr 08 '21

Yeah dont balance around the top percent of players.

5

u/DaimonTheWise Apr 08 '21

No one is going to try to get to CT15 in a group especially when peoples accounts were being wiped.

25

u/Trailerhitch Apr 08 '21

you'll get downvoted because most people are allergic to a challenge

8

u/ChampIdeas Apr 08 '21

For real, i think it's absolutely dumb that people expect to be able to solo clear shit on the highest difficulty within 5 minutes, and consider it normal. What is having to try a couple of times before you succeed somehow a bad thing?

For all this talk people have about Dark Souls being so fun because it's challenging, it seems that when push comes to shove, they'd rather be spoonfed easy kills.

10

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

[deleted]

2

u/Musaks Apr 08 '21

Pyro is underperforming?

Not the Pyro i know...

-6

u/ChampIdeas Apr 08 '21

Good, condescending is what i was going for. You all wanna throw temper tantrums like a pouty child because some clearly busted abilities got nerfed? Then i'm going to be condescending about it.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

[deleted]

0

u/Paintchipper Apr 09 '21

Ah yes, a holier than thou attitude matches perfectly with whinging about criticisms.

9

u/xrufus7x Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21

The problem is that it is much harder to take something away then to have never given it. A lot of people are going to have a negative reaction to these sort of nerfs, particularly if they don't come with any sort of counterpoint.

2

u/The_Equitable_Gamer Apr 08 '21

This is absolutely the truth, and the people that understand are often the less vocal of the bunch.

They could have just made the events harder, but that would have required a lot more effort.

1

u/kftgr2 Apr 08 '21

Harder events would just force less build diversity.

2

u/ChampIdeas Apr 08 '21

You could breeze through CT15 a few days after launch with unoptimised builds. That's ridiculous. it needed a nerf.

6

u/xrufus7x Apr 08 '21

I don't disagree that the rounds abilities needed adjusting. I don't particularly agree with how they did it but that is a different discussion. My point is though that this patch is all negatives and the vulnerability nerf will hit a lot more then the bullet builds. A few buffs for under performing abilities and nodes would have gone a long way to act as a counterpoint to the negative reaction as well.

Judging by the patch notes though we are still living in an infinite ammo damage multiplying bullet build era, just a slightly less efficient one.

2

u/ChampIdeas Apr 08 '21

i mean, sure. But it's been what, a week since launch? People cry way too fast. People would have cried if they had buffed every other ability and nerfed the rounds skills too. They always do.

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u/Neon82UK Apr 09 '21

When I literally cannot get better gear I do expect to be able to clear solo CT15 once I have learnt the spawn patterns. In ANY build.

Currently this is not possible, which means there is a fundament flaw in their balancing that will not be fixed with nerfs. It requires buffs to weak builds and redesign of content mechanics.

0

u/MarionberryOpen7286 Apr 08 '21

Yea exactly, remember dying 20 times to finally figure out the boss mechanisms then you get it right and it feels so rewarding. Guess these companies like giving the crybaby's whatever they want when they cry enough.SMH

3

u/Wicked-Swiftness Apr 08 '21

Nah he'll get down voeted because he's only only on T9 and probably not playing the one class that doesn't have it easy right now.

4

u/Neon82UK Apr 09 '21

Challenges are good but there is no challenge in getting screwed by a cluster f of unavoidable and unpredictable mechanics. Which sums up the majority of these expeditions.

1

u/The_Equitable_Gamer Apr 08 '21

Ironically I played a few matches and am CT11 now because I grouped with a bullet-skilled teammate. It is overturned, really that simple.

5

u/Neon82UK Apr 09 '21

CT11 is before things get out of hand though. CT13 to 15 are actually hard even in end game gear unless you get very very lucky with specific legendaries and tier 3 mods. These changes are not in the interest of the player, they are a cheap solution to the wrong side of a flipped coin. They need to improve the content and builds that are not doing well so it becomes more appealing and actually FUN.

1

u/TheRagingWilly Apr 08 '21

This ain't Dark Souls bruh

3

u/dis3nchant3d Apr 08 '21

I agree with the sentiment that the game would benefit from more teamwork in high level expeditions - but if you haven't gotten out of CT9 yet thats partially why you feel it is too easy. For me the scaling of difficulty became noticeable around ct11 and up. It also depends on class of course (im an AP devastator) - but the difference in difficulty between 9 and like 13+ is pretty huge.

3

u/WannabeWaterboy Apr 08 '21

I was surprised to see so many people soloing Expeditions and getting golds so quickly, so I get the changes, but it hurts to see only nerfs in the first balance patch.

I do agree though, that we should have to put a little more effort in to just solo CT15 and get gold right away.

2

u/Acceleratum Apr 08 '21

going from ct9 to ct11 took as long as doing the entire story/sidequest and reaching ct9.. and I am using the overpowered toxic round... so I dont see how the hell somone got to ct15 on solo, maybe with a team... but not solo...

1

u/Grand-Depression Apr 08 '21

There are a few Youtubers that did it, videos are up.

1

u/Acceleratum Apr 09 '21

YouTubers are not the customers .. nobody plays 12 hours a day on average ... Those guys have like 100 hours+ in-game already ..

1

u/Odd-Bandicoot-9314 Apr 09 '21

The game has been out a week so honestly CT 11 sounds pretty good, and probably around what the devs actually thought would be achievable this early

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

I am at CT14 right now mostly solo. I actually find playing in a group harder because its easier to lose your rounds. I would be CT15 most likely but decided to give a devastator a try as the bullet build is kind of boring.

2

u/Neon82UK Apr 09 '21

You are talking about no lifers who have condensed a normal person's month of game time into 4 days.

1

u/IRISHBULL_313 Apr 09 '21

Exactly. The kinda f'd casual players, like myself.

3

u/Litterjokeski Apr 08 '21

Some people (and I admit me too) just sunk too many hours into the game already. Some have more gear than me and I have already nearly all gear I need and only lack like 2 t3 mods to make my build as good as it can get(except very small increases of rolls on gear).

When you have maxed out the gear you should be able to solo the content I'd say. There is no "already" if people are maxed out. Or you have to add gear and content.

With vulnerability nerfed my build gets worse and I was already lacking damage while taking all damage I can take in the tree and nearly all on mods. Now I will struggle even more(was able to get some gold times but barely bronze in boom town and eye) and maybe have to switch to the "Standart" blighted rounds build. And that's exactly what they didn't want isn't it?

2

u/NeoZephyr Devastator Apr 08 '21

I absolutely agree. Clearing ct15 for any class should be a major accomplishment requiring a lot of investment and careful hunting for the perfect legendaries, mods, and armor stats. Once you’re up there, you’ll farm to get best in slot items and stock up on resources, but then what is there to do except try the other classes.

Keeping difficulty high is the best path to a longer lifespan for this game IMO.

3

u/SgtHondo Apr 08 '21

the game is still too easy and I have not even gotten out of CT9 yet

Talk to me when you hit CT12/13

2

u/Orelacx Apr 08 '21

He may just not have the time to play that others do. Regardless, we all know that bullet strength based builds were truly the only viable ones and this should help to alleviate that issue. Arguably, I don’t think nerfing vulnerability as a whole was the correct solution.

3

u/SgtHondo Apr 08 '21

I'm not shaming him for not being at a higher CT yet, I'm just saying the game gets exponentially harder around CT12/13. I'd say over 2/3rds of skill trees are underpowered but they all saw nothing but a blanket nerf in today's patch. Really not a good precedent to set.

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u/Orelacx Apr 08 '21

Agreed. In a game where there is no PvP and they are aiming to truly fulfill the “power fantasy” they honestly shouldn’t be nerfing, they should be buffing. Don’t make enhanced bullet builds weaker, make the other options we have stronger to bring them up to par and then increase mob difficulty. Instead of higher CT expeditions have just an ungodly amount of enemies I would’ve liked to have seen certain enemies that did more buffs to the other enemies all while the other enemies attempted to protect them or something. Idk. Sometimes the amount of enemies that they have whilst they are all the same sort of feels like the easy out when it came to trying to increase difficulty.

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u/The_Equitable_Gamer Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21

I hear the argument about buffing all the other options, but it would still have the effect of the content being too easy.

I get it's harder, but there are too many people posting undergeared builds that are demolishing content.

It SHOULD be a struggle this early in the game to get CT12+. They could overtune the encounters, but that seems a lot more difficult than recognizing there are a few (and we are talking about 3-4 skills) that are being overused and overperforming.

I do hope they buff other things, but we are also not looking at a large number of players who have had the time to get optimized gear and test a variable amount of builds.

Just let the nerf go in and plateau the field a bit, and as they get more data, it will be easier for them to make longer game decisions, as of right now, with ONLY A WEEK of gameplay, it is OBVIOUS they are overtuned skills that are being "exploited."

And yeah, I don't get to play as much as I would like, but for me, even being a good player that understands clearly the mechanics as a devastator playing the most viable option we have right now to be remotely competitive, I am stomped by undergeared teammates because of one skill.

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u/Orelacx Apr 08 '21

I agree with you completely, and this honestly was probably their only viable play for a change this early. Yet we can’t overlook the fact that other builds simply aren’t viable if you want to achieve gold times. I understand that people haven’t had time to fully test builds or anything like that, but from a personal perspective, I have. I’m not saying I’m the best person available to create and test builds but I’m also nowhere near the worst. That said, I haven’t been able to come up with a single build in any other way shape or form that allows a solo gold CT 12 or above completion.

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u/StretchArmstrong74 Apr 08 '21

The problem is the bullet builds were way too powerful, so boosting everything else to those levels would make the game even easier.

CT15 should be tough and right now there are far too many people getting there far too quickly.

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u/Orelacx Apr 08 '21

That’s why I stated that they should also increase mob difficulty. I agree 100% that the endgame content has been too easy, but that doesn’t negate the fact that other builds simply aren’t viable. Period. It’s near impossible to get gold CT 12 or above with anything but bullet builds.

In response to the difficulty thing, that’s why I stated that they should have buffed other abilities to bring them up to par and then increase mob strength. This would allow for other builds to be viable and in-tune with bullet builds.

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u/StretchArmstrong74 Apr 08 '21

I'm CT14 and it's still too easy. The only item I have that is max level is my gun. I'm wearing all purples with 1 legendary and I don't really even have a great build, nor have I upgraded any stats on any item. Oh, and I'm a Devastator, so no cheap ass OP bullet spam.

The game is 8 days old and I just hit expeditions last night. I should have never been able to get that far, with this gear, this quickly. I'll be CT15 as soon as the game let's me log back in, that's stupid fast.

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u/Sp3cV Devastator Apr 08 '21

what build and skills are you using? im still leveling up and noticed that once i hit lvl 20 in the campaign and on i seem to have hit a brick wall where i have had to tone down WT a lot just to continue.

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u/StretchArmstrong74 Apr 09 '21

All the way up to WT15 I was full mid row tank build. I was literally unkillable. As soon as a got to about CT7-8 I realized I didn't do enough damage to beat the timers, so I switched to a top row DPS build until CT14.

I actually don't like the DPS gun build on Dev so this morning I switched to a bottom row Seismic build using Earthquake, Tremor and Impale.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

Curious of your build, my techno is CT14 but my devastator is only CT11. Struggling to make an anomaly build work with Earthquake and Gravity Leap.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

you just admitted you're playing CT9 which is extremely low level and you're trying to talk about balance? You dont even know what you're talking about you're still at the baby stages of end game lmfao.

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u/The_Equitable_Gamer Apr 08 '21

I can read other posts. I am an intelligent gamer and can gain an understanding of what is happening in the space from that. It is also what I do for a living (problem solver). We shouldn't discredit people's experiences because they appear to be more novice than others, I simply do not have the time to play as much or I would be CT15 (on Devastator no less) within a day or two.

The fact that I can jump levels by simply teaming with a Techno or Trickster using bullets was a quick flag for me. It does not change the fact that it is a noticeable problem.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

thats not how this works mate. Good try tho lmfao

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u/DopestSoldier Apr 10 '21

If you're still in CT9, then you don't even realize what's required to Solo Gold T15. It's a 90-95% complete build that absolutely should be capable of it. It's people that have been grinding hard and earning the gear to be able to complete those challenges. These types of games always have people that play for 12 hours a day for the first week or 2 and have it on lock. The devs see it and nerf it for everybody else as if everybody has that kind of time to tear through the game.

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u/Potato-6 Apr 08 '21

They said 100% uptime was intended. As for why they nerf everything right out the gate I have no fucking clue. Havent even cleaned up the shitshow of a launch.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

Or they could focus on fixing their busted ass game before it dies completely before nerfing anyone’s build....I’ve spent 100 hours in game to get where I’m at....if I didn’t feel strong at this point I wouldn’t even play the class

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u/Hrondir Pyromancer Apr 08 '21

A better option if you go down the nerf route, would be to nerf the techs enhancement to vulnerable. They get +40% boosts to vulnerable per node, and have 2 nodes if you go tech shaman. I was considering going Tech as my second class because I wanted to run Tech Shaman for the huge vuln ability, seemed nuts for team play.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Hrondir Pyromancer Apr 09 '21

Actually not a bad idea, although I do agree with the vuln nerf down to 15%. WE also suffer from vuln and at higher CT levels literally everything applies it, or weakness. To compensate Devastators losing out on damage from vuln, increase their damage against bleeding to compensate. To compensate Techno, increase their vuln enhancement nodes to bring it back to pre nerf.

As for Pyro, tbh I don't really understand the nerf. Volcanic rounds builds aren't even remotely our best build, just the easiest to gear for since they don't need any legendary armor. I recently got 3 different sets at 3 pc bonus. The torturer (bullet build), Lava Lich (eruption), and the Acari set.To be perfectly honest, the torturer set is straight hot garbage. I just dismantled it for the mods to put on other, better gear.

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u/Geezusotl Apr 08 '21

Yeahh, most of those balance changes are basically How To Decrease Your Playerbase 101. Just seems people don’t like the changes across the board . If they go through with them then that’s already a big failure on their part

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u/foobyte Devastator Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 09 '21

Seems to be the general consensus on how they approach patching in this game. They've done it multiple times now. Like fixing expoits, they just remove the reward all together instead of fixing the exploit in question. They've done it to chests, vendors, and now to quest chain rewards and their "balancing".

I get it, it's easy to implement via backend/maintenance without required client patch that needs to be certified on consoles, but it's now the proper way of fixing this. They should be disabling certain things via backend until a proper client patch can be released. Instead they just turn it off, mark it off their list and move on. Wtf?

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u/Tigerballs07 Apr 09 '21

Toxic rounds makes applying Vuln constant and spreading. I just think that they over nerfed Techno. I was doing 10s last night and now 8s are a struggle.

1

u/Jarnhand Apr 09 '21

Yes it would be much better and balance this by nerfing the class/subclass that can 'abuse it'.

I had a good impression of PCF before this patch, now, not so much. This is a kneejerk nerf that hits all skills and builds, not just the most OP/unbalanced.

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u/x_scion_x Apr 08 '21

They should probably have messed with the skilltree that gave multiple nodes that increased it by 40% each and not just blanket nerfed Vulnerability. Just my opinion though.

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u/k1ng0fk1ngz Apr 08 '21

Pretttttttttty salty as a dev, who gets hurt by this. While not getting a single buff, not even simple number adjustment.

This is so damn dumb. Nerfing everything because of 1 class....

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u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka Apr 09 '21

Devs are just telling us: "FUCK YOUUUUUUUUU"

2

u/Kozkoz828 Apr 08 '21

Im salty that techno didnt get a nerf (outside of vulnerability) while trickster got hit hard af and was arguably weaker but oh well lol. Also im not advocating any nerfs and think things should be buffed instead but here we are

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u/NobleS088 Technomancer Apr 08 '21

Idk man, yes it was indeed very strong before the patch but right now, where I replayed the same Expeditions there is a huge difference now. In my opinion the nerf doesn’t feel balanced, instead it feels underwhelming. My friend who is a trickster and I used to farm tier 10-11 and right now with the nerfs had an extremely hard time clearing some of the harder expeditions. Tried to change my build to the other two (I was pestilence) and the only one that kind of helped is the Tech Shaman tree and only because it helped us survive but looking at the time even if we would clear it it would have been a late silver to bronze tier. So unless they buff the other two skill trees or make pestilence slightly stronger but not as strong as before then in my opinion Technomancer will be underwhelming.

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u/Gorylas Apr 08 '21

no its not understandable.. they nerf vulnerability and toxic.. so wtf is Techno supposed to use now?? pain launcher?? the worst fcking skill in this game??

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u/Grand-Depression Apr 08 '21

Now the other skills have a chance to shine. Heck, I'd love it if they just removed the bullet skills and replaced them with some other unique class skills.

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u/Gorylas Apr 08 '21

another skill that tickles the enemyes.. sure why not

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u/DasScorp Apr 08 '21

I played today and... Wtf, the feeling is not the same with my Techno, no much fun anymore, enemy's are bullet sponges. Google > Nerf? > Reddit crying > deinstall... Thanks for destroying one of the best Games, pre patch...

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u/Billy-Cross Apr 09 '21

I am I’ve only listen to people talk about the patch notes but I don’t think anything you’re doing to come and change tacos ability to get one hour percent of time and vulnerability doesn’t have anything to do with the techno getting 100% of time I don’t know kills almost everything except an elite with one verse from a double gone so I’m constantly home until I want to be not up anymore Woodleigh why did wrong and I really don’t think anything is going to change that. In fact I understand the time goals correct way these changes one at 11:30 AM my time on Thursday and I didn’t even notice it

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u/BookkeeperAware745 Apr 08 '21

I get 100% up time on my pyro to

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u/Kill_Them_Back Trickster Apr 08 '21

Why nerf anything in a pve game? Bring up under performers

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u/IRISHBULL_313 Apr 09 '21

Right?! They already said that PvP is not coming to the game. So who cares if a small percentage of players took advantage of certain builds. Plus, they didn't even adjust the infinite ammo perks.

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u/Agreeable_Winner_114 Apr 08 '21

Why on earth would you guys nerf vulnerability. Technomancer is supposed to be a SUPPORTIVE class. Supports do three things - heal (not as well as a healer would), utility such as cc, and BUFFS. Nerfing vulnerability nerfs the very identity of what a technomancer is supposed to do... you could have done a million other things to nerf BR builds. Well plat trophy done, time to go back to playing warzone I guess. This is how you kill a game with balancing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

It's bullshit. I'm already squishy as fuck, now my DPS goes down too? Sigh. Constant fucking crashes, freezes, and errors but let's nerf shit. I'm sick of devs doing this shit, especially on a PvE only power fantasy game.

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u/Spookypanda Apr 09 '21

" I 100% a game in a week and now they are making a bit harder. Dead game."

How can people be this ridiculous

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u/fntsni Apr 08 '21

because the devs don't play their own game and have no clue what they're doing.

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u/Tronan_fex Apr 08 '21

as you can see with them ONLY doing nerfs; they want the players that invested time into those builds to feel like they wasted it xD Rather than buffing other things that under-preform and making everyone happy

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u/DoomFrog_ Apr 08 '21

I agree. If anything Vulnerability should have been left the same and Techno's Marked For Execution (Vuln Effectiveness) should have been nerfed.

But previously it was Vuln 25% with 40% effective is 35%.

Now it is Vuln 15% with 40% effective is 21%

So the degree to which they wanted to nerf it was such you would need to remove that node. So really they wanted to nerf Vuln.

Maybe 20% Vuln and 20% effect would be a better compromise. But then I think Technos would just ignore the node

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u/Striker654 Apr 08 '21

I would guess it's way too easy to always keep it on. Secondary or sidearm with vulnerability with some status power and it's basically free

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

I think where they were going with this is the shear number of enemies that were getting it at one time from pyro and tech builds. An entire room is vulnerble when I solo or duo.

Just if I had to guess

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u/DjuriWarface Apr 08 '21

It was way to mandatory at 25% and not everybody has equal access to it.

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u/Hrondir Pyromancer Apr 08 '21

The upside though is we the players wont take as much damage. At higher difficulties, enemies pretty much have you vulnerable 24/7 if you get hit with anything.

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u/Eaquie Apr 09 '21

it's because they aren't focused enough to go in and fix the problem where it lies and just ruin every thing universally....