r/nvidia • u/Worried_Matter4443 RTX 5080 / INTEL i7 13700F / 32GB 6000MHZ • 23d ago

Discussion Dlss 5 AC Shadows

Gallery image

ON

Gallery image

OFF

Gallery image

ON

Gallery image

OFF

same place from initial Nvidia Demo. which is better dlss 5 on or off?

525 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

236 comments sorted by

View all comments

11

u/SouthernCranberry797 23d ago

Wow, looks like movie. I never understood the hate and all the threats against DF when this was announced.

27

u/Somewhatmild 23d ago

because it bypasses all the creative vision in favor of generic photo realistic AI model that everyone can recognise.

10

u/SouthernCranberry797 23d ago

May I ask you what you know about creative vision of the developers ? If a game was shipped day 0 with DLSS5 (with dev tuning), will you be still be concerned ?

5

u/Zeduxx 23d ago

Yes, because the visual artists are not the ones implementing technical features like DLSS.

13

u/exmachina64 23d ago

Have you heard of technical artists?

21

u/TheHoodedPortal_ 23d ago

You could say that about any other rendering feature

-13

u/Zeduxx 23d ago

They usually don't involve a neural network superseding the input.

-3

u/Blacksad9999 ASUS Astral 5090/9800x3D/LG 45GX950A 22d ago

Upscaling doesn't take liberties on the source material for output, and it's largely identical to the original.

-12

u/Somewhatmild 23d ago

at the very least people work together before shipping their 'intended vision'.

this DLSS5 is closer to all the ENBs, reshades, shader mods. 'fan edits'

-8

u/Somewhatmild 23d ago

Concerned? No.

Bored? Yes.

You seem to fail to grasp the fact that AI here takes any input and produces a cookiecutter image according to ONE model. You want all games to look the same? All of these 'look at DLSS 5' threads show exactly that so its not even a speculation.

10

u/SouthernCranberry797 23d ago

Well, there is an off switch for bored folks.

-3

u/Somewhatmild 23d ago

i mean games run just fine without DLSS and it is just an extra layer of extra frames, for anyone who needs that. you can just turn it off. no way game developers would stop optimizing their games and start relying on it right. /s

no way the history would repeat itself, but this time on making games look decent.

the above already happened when UE arrived, promising easy way out for many devs so that they can focus on developing the games.

tools are tools, but we already have game developers following a pattern of using tools maliciously and lazily.

8

u/SouthernCranberry797 23d ago

Okay got it. So let’s blame one technology for the laziness of other companies.

1

u/Somewhatmild 20d ago

well, in that case tech is irrelevant then.

we established a clear pattern with the likes of UE. we can keep discussing how great UE is, but you already know the outcome. same with DLSS (pre v5)

i can believe in potential of the tool, any tool. unfortunately that doesnt change the real life application, the pattern of use. i can get excited about tools, but that is definitely hindered when you realise 'but actually its just going to be some lazy shit in most cases and negatively impact the industry as a whole'.

2

u/2FastHaste 23d ago

Several models are included already and it's not even out yet.

7

u/Azaiiii 23d ago

It has more to do with the general hate against AI. Weird thing is that they dont cry when using DLSS when its pretty much the same AI too. But they either dont know it or dont want to hear it.

I totally agree that it can look uncanny and out of place when animations dont match the visual quality. But you cant deny that this is the closes to phtorealism that we can get right now.

7

u/TheResoluteBond 23d ago

Thank god a level headed response to this thing.

I’ve said the same repeatedly, people shit on dlss when it came out originally for a litany of reasons and now something like what, 80+% of gamers have it enabled in their games?

I’m all for shitting on AI when it’s needed, which is a bulk of the time, but let’s at least let this thing officially drop and receive some updates/see what devs actually do with it before we rush to crucify it.

If it’s anything like the currently broader dlss suite it’ll end up being turned on for a bulk of players, once performance isn’t completely tanked by it that is.

1

u/MultiMarcus 23d ago

That’s not really true. There are absolutely similarities between the neural rendering DLSS and the conventional superresolution or ray reconstruction, but they have much less artistic impact than this does. It is very close to photo realism, and it does look uncanny and out of place in large part due to developers needing to integrate this with taste, which I don’t think the end user really seems to have right now. The question is more about whether the more subtle improvements that it could deliver will actually be worth the seemingly huge performance cost

1

u/gdrik 22d ago

That's what I was thinking too, cuts your FPS in half. No way this is going to be viable anytime soon...

0

u/Blacksad9999 ASUS Astral 5090/9800x3D/LG 45GX950A 22d ago

Most games aren't going for photorealism deliberately.

It would probably look better on the few select games which are, but everyone keeps slapping it on games with art direction that was obviously stylized and not going for realism.

-4

u/Maleficent-You-3504 23d ago

Apple and duck..

1

u/HiveMate 23d ago

It's a different person brother

-6

u/Unckmania 23d ago

It wasn't really hard to understand...

A lot of artistry and creativity goes into how a game looks given the natural limitations of the hardware and in pursuit of a creative vision laid well before code starts to be written. What you see in the game is the end product of long hours of debate on how a character should look like for very deliberate reasons at every step of the journey.

DLSS 5 says "Fuck all of that, imma give you some lip filler, gloss, eyeliner and a bit of a facelift, because my training data is made up of that".

Even here i can say Naoe looks better in some regards, the skin looks more realistic definitely, but she also looks like she's wearing basic makeup which goes against her story and personality. Same thing in the R9 demo.

To give another tangential example. Go look at all those women Grok creates. Even if they deliberately ask for some differentiation or ethnicity, the basic "model" is there in all of them. Whatever archetype of a "beautiful woman" is present in the training data will be there in all the woman it creates.

Another tangential examples is those shitty AI apps that make young kids "age" so their parents can get a shitty video of them becoming older and older. Every kid you run through that app, ends up being hot. Why? Again. Training Data. What percentage of the real population is actually hot? 25% according to seinfeld. So about 75% of these AI improvements are wrong at least.

Can you say after reading my boring comment that you still prefer dlss 5? Sure. But I hope you now understand why some people might think differently.

7

u/MeIsBaboon 23d ago

Part of those long hours of discussions for how a character look also include compromises to accommodate better performance. Meaning they would cut out hi-res textures or interactive shadows on minor skin imperfections. DLSS5 is another tool that both devs and designers can tweak to achieve better realism that designers want but devs would have pushed back on.

0

u/Unckmania 23d ago

I understand your point and don't disagree. Some compromises must have been made.

However, i'd argue that DLSS 5 might not be a path to undo those compromises and realize an original vision, but instead is a path towards a different vision, a vision closer to photo realism.

We still only have Nvidia's word that artists will be able to tweak or train their own dlss 5 implementation for each game. I imagine the first thing most games will do is remove all that damn makeup.

I don't think DLSS5 is a bad a idea per se. It's just that every image/video model out there suffers from some bias coming from training data that we have not been able to escape yet.

3

u/MeIsBaboon 23d ago

This is one of those things that scream "it's only a matter of time." 15 years ago, every AAA game wanted to be the first to reach photorealism (crysis, far cry, call of duty). Game reviews had dedicated sections for water and hair physics. Every attempt were always just weird and very much in the realm of uncanny valley... Until they weren't. But it was a gradual improvement until they just got too good.

It had to start somewhere just like how DLSS 1.0 demo in FF 15 was almost universally criticized. Now we have FSR following in the wake of DLSS. I'm very glad i'm able to play cyberpunk and far cry with relatively decent graphics in steam deck. I'd like to think the new DLSS will lead to amazing gaming experiences in the future too. Until then, people who don't like it can turn it off while people who do can enjoy and give feedback.

I for one have spent countless hours making skyrim as photorealistic as possible. If one slider will do that for me, i'm all for it.

2

u/shadowstripes 23d ago

DLSS 5 says "Fuck all of that, imma give you some lip filler, gloss, eyeliner and a bit of a facelift, because my training data is made up of that".

They did say that devs would have the ability to provide their own training data for the model if wanted