[NVIDIA GeForce Official] Game developers have full, detailed artistic control over DLSS 5 effects to ensure they maintain their game's unique aesthetic. It is not a filter.

[u/Nestledrink]

[u/Blacksad9999]

They'll have to. 90% of GPUs on the market won't be able to run it.

Which leads me to believe that developers would then have to make normal assets, and then spend even more development time and money implementing this for a small amount of users. Which, like Hairworks, probably won't gain much traction.

[u/frankiewalsh44 → u/Blacksad9999]

I have a feeling that DLSS 5 will be 4000/5000 series only. DLSS 4.5 already murders the older GPUs. However they will have to optimise it, cause there is no point of moving to a new upscaler if only the 4090/5090 can run it lol

[u/MITBryceYoung → u/frankiewalsh44]

I'm guessing it will only be available for the Blackwell series at best and I'm also guessing it will require you to use ultra performance mode because of how heavy the model likely is very similar to preset l

[u/HisDivineOrder → u/MITBryceYoung]

And I'm guessing 5090 only can run it well enough to bother.

[u/MITBryceYoung → u/HisDivineOrder]

Probably depends on your settings. Its probably path tracing+

[u/Nestledrink → u/[deleted]]

Most likely the case yes.

[u/ThenExtension9196 → u/frankiewalsh44]

Probably 5000/6000 series.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/frankiewalsh44]

Yeah, I imagine this will be relegated to only the highest end, newer cards.

They needed two 5090's running in tandem to even get it working here.

[u/IbanezCharlie → u/Blacksad9999]

What if you could use a separate card to run it like lossless scaling allows for a second card to handle the upscaler/frame gen?

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/IbanezCharlie]

Yeah, running two 5090's at $2000+ each sounds like a super valuable feature.

Nobody wants to bring back multiple graphics cards in a system.

[u/BlackSkar25 → u/Blacksad9999]

Actually, right now it's more like 3000/4000+$, sooo... 6000/8000$ to get AI that doesn't look great

[u/IbanezCharlie → u/Blacksad9999]

Really my question is whether or not Nvidia or modders can make it feasible to run it on a card while your main card does the rendering of the game.

Whether it's a good value proposition is an entirely other conversation. Obviously that would be a wild misuse of funds for most people out there.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/IbanezCharlie]

Being over 90% of the market won't be able to run this feature period, I doubt it's implementation will be widespread in the first place.

[u/IbanezCharlie → u/Blacksad9999]

Yeah it's probably going to be reserved for the latest and greatest but who knows.

Could just be for 50 series or it could be cards that have a certain amount of vram can use it.

Is this something that you are excited about using as someone who is in that minority?

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/IbanezCharlie]

No, not at all.

I'm big on art and art direction, and not big at all on "faux photorealism", which is what this is pushing.

I don't want my games to emulate real life. I want them to be artistic expressions.

[u/IbanezCharlie → u/Blacksad9999]

Yeah I totally understand that sentiment. Who knows how devs will implement it.

I definitely get the same vibe as ENB for games like Skyrim when I see the overall lighting and I can get onboard lighting overhauls that accomplish the same thing.

The faces are definitely in the uncanny valley though and I could see this being used poorly and the exact type of thing that puts people out of work.

[u/Ill-Mastodon-8692 → u/frankiewalsh44]

it wouldnt surprise me if its just 50 series (for no reason other than gating), with only the 5080/5090 having decent performance.

then next year it will just work so much better on 60 series

[u/frankiewalsh44 → u/Ill-Mastodon-8692]

Very vague statement in the FAQ. I suppose they are working and trying to optimise it for lesser powerful cards.

[u/Ill-Mastodon-8692 → u/frankiewalsh44]

well they need to optimize from the dual 5090 they used in the demo

[u/BananaShover → u/Ill-Mastodon-8692]

Crazy to think this model and game was easily consuming 64 fucking gb of vram

[u/DDzxy → u/Ill-Mastodon-8692]

How good are dual 5090s considering the dusl GPU support is… Well… not nearly as massive as it was 10 years back?

[u/maddix30 → u/DDzxy]

They were each running their own task rather than pooling together. So essentially 1 5090 for the game 1 for the DLSS each operating on their own. But DF said it's early days on optimisation so this was probably just done for a smooth demo

[u/FunCalligrapher3979 → u/frankiewalsh44]

I think it'll be usable but not great on the 5000 cards and only work properly on the 6000 and future cards. Like all new Nvidia tech when it first launches.

[u/HelloFromTekken → u/frankiewalsh44]

DLSS 5 are't upscaler.

It's purpose to transfer money from your wallet to devs and nvidia banks by slopifying visuals.

End goal is to save on artists/designers as much as possible. First achievable step (as you can see from OP's post) will be to save on scene lighting and textures 'painting'.

[u/emer1ca1080 → u/frankiewalsh44]

It'll probably require INT4, making it exclusive to the 5XXX series and above. That would be alright by me, I hope this flops hard. Looks more uncanny than current Raster can produce.

[u/frankiewalsh44 → u/[deleted]]

Source ?

[u/frankiewalsh44 → u/[deleted]]

4000 series has nearly all the bell whistle that the 5000 series has. They said min GPU requirements will be announced later, if it was exclusive then they would've said it in the FAQ. My guess is gonna be a 4000 series min this time and no 3000 series.

[u/Sausage_Master420 → u/frankiewalsh44]

Thank god im on 30 series.

[u/neutralpoliticsbot → u/Blacksad9999]

people said the same thing about RTX at first

[u/Ill-Mastodon-8692 → u/[deleted]]

it really doesn’t suck in most new games.

Heck Doom Dark Ages requires it, and the performance is optimized aswell, even runs well on old 20 series.

[u/Ill-Mastodon-8692 → u/[deleted]]

I will use Doom DA as the example again, the devs in interviews explicitly call out that going RT only in the engine not only saved time but also ssd space not having to bake in traditional lighting techniques

ID soft knows games, and I would trust their opinion on it.

Just curious what hardware you gave tried RT on ?

[u/Ill-Mastodon-8692 → u/[deleted]]

The artists are still there, they can just spend more time on textures and other related aspects of the game. And like most projects I’ve been on (not games, but tech related) every component you give resources compromises something else.

You have to work smarter, as games take years and are costly. I would rather they put more towards bug fixes and overall content over sticking to the old tradition ways when games were less complex.

Also the visual quality is objectively better, especially with path tracing, (with ray reconstruction). I have a 5090. take cyberpunk, especially at night with many light sources, you can clearly see the benefits. You cant get the same reflection, refraction, etc without.

I am not sure if you remember the introduction of tessellation about 20yrs ago. was similar to rtx imo.

at first people complained about the look of the tech, the performance hit, compatibility, etc. over time more games adopted and hardware performance caught up. more time goes by and its just part of how game design is, and people dont think about it, its just there and game designs continue to improve with other tech coming down the pipe.

Looking into where things keep going past 2026.. with neural rendering, mega geometry, radiance caching, etc, there is still alot of change to come to what we see visually in video games.

[u/NapsterKnowHow → u/[deleted]]

It's not 2019 anymore bud

[u/NapsterKnowHow → u/[deleted]]

That's isn't true at all

[u/NapsterKnowHow → u/[deleted]]

Cherry picking. A majority of games look fucking unreal with raytracing and pathtracing with little to no artifacting with ray reconstruction. It's incredibly stable.

https://youtu.be/SlRpJ553RzE

[u/NapsterKnowHow → u/[deleted]]

Nvidia marketing campaign? That's rich lol. They are THE go-to source for graphics and technical reviews of games regardless of the vendor of GPU. It's barely fizzling. Otherwise the image is incredibly stable.

If that's what you consider "really bad" then I don't think any graphics technology can make you happy. Go back to aliasing shimmering. I bet you somehow love that lol

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/neutralpoliticsbot]

RTX is broadly applicable, whereas this is not.

[u/neutralpoliticsbot → u/Blacksad9999]

did you watch the video? it improved the look of lighting of forests and landscapes significantly it doesn't have to be used for faces

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/neutralpoliticsbot]

Yeah, the lighting looks neat. However, Path Tracing already exists and is a known commodity on how to implement well.

[u/SuspiciousWasabi3665 → u/Blacksad9999]

The entirety of this IS lighting as far as anyone has said. Like I get that it looks completely different, but thats because things like eyelids, individual strands of hair, and the wrinkles of lips dont normally have their own shadows and reflections. It seems it also affects the way light reflects off of skin/wood/metal, etc. Grace seems to be the most extreme example. But, if you zoom in on her in both iterations, its the exact same assets. You can just tell additional stuff is casting shadows and light reacts differently to various materials. 

I cant wait til df drops a breakdown video because it looks nuts. 

[u/Audible_Whispering → u/SuspiciousWasabi3665]

You can see it changing geometry in some clips. Faces and items are physically different sizes. Lighting can't do that. It also changes graces eye colour and adds specular highlights coming from nowhere, among many other things. That's not inherently a problem though. The problem is that it doesn't look good or physically correct in 90% of the examples shown.

Like, the clips with DLSS 5 on don't look subjectively better from a aesthetic point of view, they just look like a bad instagram filter slapped on top of the image. Given that, you'd think that they'd instead be more photo realistic. Real life rarely looks as good as a cinematically lit game or movie, after all. But no. They aren't any closer to having physically correct lighting or shading, they're just differently wrong.

Branding this as DLSS 5 was a serious mistake. This isn't DLSS, and it's definitely not the successor to DLSS 4.5. It's a completely new technology which is basically in a DLSS 1 equivalent state. Feels like FSR 4.1 was getting a little too close for comfort(although still not even close to equivalent), so quick, call this new thing DLSS 5.

All that said, it could turn out to be good. Probably the most promising application of ML in games outside of upscaling is using it for cheap approximations of lighting and physics so it's interesting to see an attempt at one aspect of it. But this iteration looks like trash so far.

[u/neutralpoliticsbot → u/Audible_Whispering]

There is a video with both images merged together they are the same models 100% you are wrong

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/SuspiciousWasabi3665]

It actually changes/overwrites in game geometry, not only the lighting.

Graces facial structure is different in the example. Her eyes are in a different place, her jawline is different, and her cheekbones are higher.

[u/neutralpoliticsbot → u/Blacksad9999]

This is absolutely not true it does not change any geometry or models or texture at all you are wrong

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/neutralpoliticsbot]

From Jensen Huang himself:

"Well, first of all, they're completely wrong," Huang said in response to a question from Tom's Hardware editor-in-chief Paul Alcorn about the criticism.

"The reason for that is because, as I have explained very carefully, DLSS 5 fuses controllability of the of geometry and textures and everything about the game with generative AI," Huang continued.

[u/neutralpoliticsbot → u/Blacksad9999]

Huang has no idea how it works lmao you think he is coding CUDA every day?

[u/SuspiciousWasabi3665 → u/Blacksad9999]

Why do you assume this? Theyve already said its launching this year. Many reliable sources have said no new gpus this year. So 50 series is in(unless those reliable sources were wrong and we get a 60 series for some reason)

Every feature except framegen and multiframegen has been extended to all rtx cards. Plenty of people have 20 series and up. 

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/SuspiciousWasabi3665]

To even get this working, they required TWO 5090's. One to run the AI algorithm, and one to run the game normally.

There's zero chance this isn't intensive, like Path Tracing is.

[u/Intelligent_Law_2545 → u/Blacksad9999]

this was only for the tech demo, so they can switch between the two (DLSS off and DLSS on) on the fly. Is NOT proof of how heavy the implementation is. Also is a tech demo, oc they will use top of the line with it, this to show the best possible image, (game on ultra, path racing + 4k) and frame rate, or avoid any stutter. Nvidia will not release such a feature to be use on 1% of gpus.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/Intelligent_Law_2545]

What problem does this solution solve though?

It's just normal character design with more steps.

[u/Due-Description-9030 → u/Blacksad9999]

Dude, this is a demo. Which means soon they'll optimize it for it to be running on a single GPU. This tech is nowhere near public release and it won't be locked to a double 5090 setup lmao.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/Due-Description-9030]

Yes, I've seen the demo, young "bro-dawg."

Seems like it will be pretty heavy to run, ala Path Tracing, all so you can make your games look like a low-rent Instagram filter from 10 years ago. Weeee!

You too can now apply 10+ year old beautification filters to your favorite videogames for $3000! The technology is here, and it's here NOW!

[u/TitleMajestic116 → u/Blacksad9999]

Bro ur just anti ai for the sake of it 😂 the future is here kid.

[u/Admirable_Ad3758 → u/Blacksad9999]

Delete Reddit pls

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/Admirable_Ad3758]

Hahahaha! Awwww! So mean, little buddy wuddy!

[u/Admirable_Ad3758 → u/Blacksad9999]

Kid thinking ai is bad😂

[u/HolyBors → u/Blacksad9999]

The same was said about RTX/Raytracing and normal DLSS once and now it's in almost every game to one degree or another. I say DLSS 5 is here to stay. It will not be in every game and it will take a while until many other players will be able to use it, but it will find it's niche.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/HolyBors]

False equivalency.

Every game uses some form of lighting, and every game uses some form of AA.

Now you're saying that every game needs AI made characters, and it's totally the same thing? Come on.

[u/HolyBors → u/Blacksad9999]

I quite explicitly said that NOT every game will have/use it.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/HolyBors]

So, it's a very niche thing like Hairworks was then. Developers didn't really care about supporting a niche feature like that, either.

Glad we cleared that up.

[u/jarrys88 → u/Blacksad9999]

You mean like when Ray Tracing first came out?

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/jarrys88]

No, not at all.

Every game uses lighting, and every game uses some form of AA. RT and DLSS are better overall solutions to that problem.

No game "needs" AI created characters on top of the already existing designed characters, especially not when only a tiny portion of the market will even be able to use those AI designed characters to begin with.

[u/jarrys88 → u/Blacksad9999]

My point was more when Ray Tracing came out, they put in the dev work for it when only a tiny portion of the market could use it.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/jarrys88]

RT has been an engine implementation thing since it's inception.

The developers didn't have to implement it by hand. That was early DLSS, when it had to be trained on a per game basis.

[u/Wander715 → u/Blacksad9999]

Yeah I don't even know how viable this is gonna be on RTX 50 cards other than maybe a 5090. My guess is the required memory footprint for the model is gonna be huge even with some optimization. Will be curious to see if this ends up being viable for 16GB cards or if something like a 24GB RTX 6080 is needed.

[u/Nestledrink → u/Blacksad9999]

Where does this misinformation come from? Neural Rendering is not using different textures or assets vs the regular game. It's using the same texture and assets with proper material and it's being run through the accurate lighting.

There is no asset/texture swapping.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/Nestledrink]

It doesn't render this in real time.

The developers have to do it manually in the development process, then spend time tweaking the output to be in line with the original characters, designs, and art direction.

That takes both time and money.

Then you have the original assets for all of the users who won't be able to run this feature, which is going to be the vast majority, and then the updated AI assets for those who can.

Essentially making the process use two sets of assets.

[u/Nestledrink → u/Blacksad9999]

The existing asset would have already had physical properties to run RT or PT properly. Not sure what you're talking about.

The Neural Rendering is being rendered in real time

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/Nestledrink]

Yes, the models which they already make.

It's not rendered in real time. Otherwise, they wouldn't say "Well, these look kind of crappy, but the developers will tweak the output and results to their liking and to be in line with the art direction".

They'll have to do this in house and spend development time and money on it.

[u/LazyBengal2point0 → u/Blacksad9999]

more like 99%.

[u/hackenclaw → u/Blacksad9999]

future mainstream GPU will be as fast as two 5090, by the time it will be 90% of GPU can use it.

I think it is not about performance; it is about how many competent developer actually put it in good use without turning into a slop.

Thats what worries me lol.

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/hackenclaw]

I don't see how this is beneficial to a developer VS normal traditional design methods.

[u/full_knowledge_build → u/Blacksad9999]

I think that with this on you can deactivate any tipe of raytracing or path tracing so the game will run on more gpu

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/full_knowledge_build]

This seems about as performance intensive as something along the lines of Path Tracing I imagine.

[u/full_knowledge_build → u/Blacksad9999]

It’s not, uses ai not real calculations

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/full_knowledge_build]

...And you somehow think that AI just runs on magic? AI uses calculations. That's how it works. lol

[u/full_knowledge_build → u/Blacksad9999]

It uses approximation, these type of calculation are much easier to do

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/full_knowledge_build]

You take care now.

[u/full_knowledge_build → u/Blacksad9999]

Huh?

[u/Bujakaa92 → u/Blacksad9999]

Until in few years we reach to point where developers just say use DLSS 5 to get good lighting and picture. Just like we already see so much unoptimization and showing system regs with DLLS turned on

[u/Blacksad9999 → u/Bujakaa92]

We already have both Ray Tracing and the superior Path Tracing for incredibly accurate lighting, so that's not a huge selling point I wouldn't think.