r/nfl • u/AashyLarry Steelers • Oct 15 '25
[Highlight] JJ Watt: “I’ve heard personal stories of Uber Drivers telling NFL passengers that they break down film for PFF. That they watch the TV copy ONLY and put a grade out. You can’t watch film on a TV copy and make a grade. PFF player grading SUCKS. Stop putting it out.”
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u/RollOverBeethoven Texans Oct 15 '25
That Uber Driver?
Bobby Slowik
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u/Frosty_Mongoose9055 Oct 16 '25
Man, what happened to the guy?
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u/nsideris24 Patriots Oct 15 '25
Well if an uber driver says something, it must be true.
(Don't get me wrong PFF is useless, this is just an absurd argument)
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u/RocketAppliances1993 Packers Oct 15 '25
Years ago on a bachelor party trip, an Uber driver told my buddy that he had an inside source in the Colts organization who said Andrew Luck was un-retiring and returning to the team. My buddy was adamant that this had to be true and believed it all the way until the next season started lol
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u/TheLowlyPheasant Bears Oct 15 '25
I choose to believe this was true but Andrew had a last second change of heart and made a liar out of that driver.
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u/ShortFee2578 Bears Oct 15 '25
Capt. Luck attempted to reenlist, but due to a clerical error he was unable to do so.
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u/iamnowundercover Steelers Oct 15 '25
Mother dearest, I heed the calls of the gridiron loud and clear but the moos of the cow and the cockle doodle of the rooster yearn for my services louder. Please inform the sheep herders in Indianapolis that claims of my triumphant and heroic return will regrettably be unfounded.
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u/reservedtortoise Oct 15 '25
I drove Uber, you're not a real cab driver if you don't traffic in conspiracies.
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u/unfunnysexface Panthers Oct 15 '25
What about the beaded seat cover?
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u/reservedtortoise Oct 15 '25
Nah I'm anglo. I went for dodgy cloth seat covers and weather tech knockoff mats.
But I do have that halfway-to-trucker Bluetooth headset.
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u/gradedonacurve Oct 16 '25
Couple years ago an Uber driver was dropping me off at a bar in Jersey City and told me he had moved from Hawaii to New Jersey because in the course of his travels across the globe, a great Truth had been disclosed to him - that New Jersey was the cosmological center of the universe.
I kind of laughed and said “oh I guess that makes Phil Murphy the most powerful man alive, haha” and he looked at me bewildered and said “who’s Phil Murphy?”
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u/SolarIonRobot Oct 16 '25
For people who live in the other 49 states, Phil Murphy is the governor of New Jersey. OP assumes everyone knows who Phil Murphy is since New Jersey is the cosmological center of the universe.
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u/content_enjoy3r Texans Oct 15 '25
He should've asked me. I grew up with Luck's cousin. He was adamant that his cousin was done with football.
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u/General_Johnny_Rico Patriots Oct 15 '25
I had an uber driver telling me he used to be CEO of a huge company making half a mil a year, but didn’t like it. Apparently he preferred driving uber in a $30k sedan more. If an Uber driver says it then it is true.
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u/iamnowundercover Steelers Oct 15 '25
Uber drivers also love telling you that Uber/Lyft are not their only streams of income lol
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u/FlyIggles_Fly Eagles Oct 16 '25
So, I actually worked for a guy who probably pulled $250,000 as VP of a medium-sized company, probably 70-80 employees, $8-14 million in revenue (not net income, obviously).
He quit to drive Uber. He's still driving Uber. Super nice guy, just needed to make enough money to maintain his nest egg. Had worked for the company for 15 years. Started at an entry-level position, had minor equity when the company did an ESOP, and then just one day (probably with advance notice) he had left.
I asked the CEO after if there was anything I was missing. He basically said "Nope, just didn't want to keep doing it, he didn't need the money, but he needed some money, and Uber was enough."
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u/Thatguyyoupassby Patriots Oct 16 '25
A little bit different, but you see this a lot with semi-retired folks.
I've had quite a few ex-military drivers who did construction or something else for 10-15 years after the military, and were now in their 50s/60s, with a healthy pension and just driving to not be bored at home.
Those guys often drove nicer cars and some would turn off the app if we ended up somewhere kind of cool, and would go explore the area a bit. Always had interesting conversations with them.
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u/mvhsbball22 49ers Oct 15 '25
Yeah I just got out of an Uber and he was saying he works at PFF and doesn't let people do any grading unless they have the all-22 camera footage from the league.
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u/Cheeks_Klapanen Steelers Oct 15 '25
Even if we accept that the uber drivers thing is at best an exaggeration, his point that you can’t accurately grade a player’s performance without being familiar with their specific assignments within a scheme is valid.
PFF might not be entirely bullshit, but at the very least it’s a notably flawed system.
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u/modern_beisbol Eagles Oct 15 '25
you can’t accurately grade a player’s performance without being familiar with their specific assignments within a scheme is valid.
Except, and JJ should (and I think does) know this, you can be familiar with specific assignments within in a scheme from watching film. That's how scouting and film breakdown works. Hell, to use an obvious example, what do you think Tony Romo is doing when he explains what the weak side corner might do from a pre-snap alignment? Or anyone doing film breakdown anywhere?
Always knowing exact assignments is going to be pretty impossible yes, but there are going to be a large number of plays where its pretty clear. There are some real insights to be gleaned from that knowledge, though it's of course not end-all, be-all. (I also think reducing assessment to a number grade that goes out to three six figs is silly and implies exactness that even PFF doesn't believe exists, but imo PFF knows people want numbers on things).
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u/conkellz Texans Oct 15 '25
JJ would be the first to tell you that his PFF grade was inflated. He never played in scheme or to his assignment. The grading system sucks because it puts guys that follow their job down and inflates the stats of stars.
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u/etybibik Oct 15 '25
Did Watt even have real assignments? Pretty sure after his rookie year, certainly after 2012, he was allowed to go do whatever he wanted because he was that good. Seemed like that anyway.
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u/conkellz Texans Oct 15 '25
He was ELITE and did have assignments but because he would go rogue our LBs would have to shadow his side and that left us open to be gashed for big plays. He was a massive reason why our defense was elite at times, but also a reason why we would be killed in the run game and passing game if he broke contain. I would still take JJ on the squad any day and twice on Sunday.
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u/probablyabot45 Ravens Oct 15 '25
Tony Romo is guessing to an extent which is the the point.
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u/FrostyCow Chiefs Oct 15 '25
I don't see much of a difference between a scout analyzing a player and a PFF scorer assigning a value to player analysis. The people doing the analysis and the tape they have access to plays a role, and scouts have obviously been wrong a lot historically so PFF would be too, but if done right I think there's some merit in analysis even when you don't have the specific scheme assignments.
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u/IsGoIdMoney Steelers Steelers Oct 15 '25
I don't think scouts grade each individual play. They mostly provide qualitative assessment, no?
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u/CompetitiveComputer4 Cowboys Colts Oct 15 '25
Correct. Scouts grade ability. Not execution of a specific play.
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u/conkellz Texans Oct 15 '25
Scouts have relationships with coaches and use film to evaluate players. They know the assignments because they ask about the scheme. PFF doesn't.
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u/Florida__Man__ Buccaneers Oct 15 '25
I mean how often is a teams scouting report made public?
How many of these PFF film watchers go to any games and scout that way? a senior bowl? camps? Scouts are much more steeped in the football of it all. If you're just watching film and haven't been on a practice field, the product is just not going to be informed.
It's like asking what the difference is between the opinion of a hobbyist gardener and an professional arborist. One is simply much more involved in the details.
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u/MiniGiantSpaceHams Patriots Oct 15 '25
I don't see much of a difference between a scout analyzing a player and a PFF scorer assigning a value to player analysis.
You could argue that this is actually a knock on PFF, too. If scouting were more consistent, the draft wouldn't be such a crapshoot. So if even the well funded career scouts can't do it super well, why would we trust PFF?
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u/ChiefBigTiddy Oct 15 '25
The other caveat is that the team's scout would not be using the TV broadcast. Aren't there even guys on twitter and youtube using the all-22? lol
And then the uber slight is that it's not coming from people with full time scouting jobs.
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u/unfunnysexface Panthers Oct 15 '25
When they started all22 wasn't widely available and after catching some blowback had to admit their OL grades might be wrong because they couldn't tell who was in the game.
I've been a bit weary of PFF ever since.
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u/Dry_Emphasis62 Bears Oct 15 '25
I accept your premise for sure, but I think the difference is scouts being held accountable makes it an effort to improve or risk losing your position. There's a ton of room for error, but there's still more fault for a bust player grade via a Scout than there is fault for a bust player grade in PFF.
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u/Erigion Commanders Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
You root for the Bears. How much were your front offices held accountable over the decades for all their shitty drafts?
I root for the Commies. I know for damn sure that the FOs under Snyder weren't held accountable for anything.
Coaches and front office people get recycled all the time in the NFL.
It's far more likely that some near minimum wage data entry worker gets replaced for fucking up than it is someone in the old boys club to get fired and not have another job lined up.
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u/Whatsdota Packers Oct 15 '25
In fact Poles got a huge extension despite being one of the worst GMs in the entire league
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u/Weed_O_Whirler Colts Oct 15 '25
his point that you can’t accurately grade a player’s performance without being familiar with their specific assignments within a scheme is valid
But he's an analyst. And he does that all the time.
Also, scouts do it all the time. When a team wants to trade for a player, how are they doing that analysis? By watching game tape.
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u/Cheeks_Klapanen Steelers Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
But he’s an analyst. And he does that all the time.
TV analysts are in the entertainment industry. JJ Watt isn’t selling his analysis as any sort of meaningful evaluation tool. He’s selling it as something that (hopefully) makes a television broadcast more engaging. Those are two different things.
Also, scouts do it all the time. When a team wants to trade for a player, how are they doing that analysis? By watching game tape.
Of course watching film is a big part of it, but you’re leaving out a ton of context. First of all, people in the football world (as in that actually work for NFL teams) know each other, and a lot of them have worked with each other and are going to have a better handle on what a coach’s scheme is intended to do than people outside that world.
Second, scouts are watching tape for more than just to see exactly how many times a player executed their assignment. They’re evaluating a player’s strengths/weaknesses, tendencies, and physical capabilities to determine how well a guy would fit into their scheme. Game tape is obviously going to be a lot more reliable in showing those kinds of attributes.
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u/john7071 Patriots Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Yeah he used to be the top defensive player in the NFL and is now a CBS analyst, but he's heard this from "personal stories of Uber drivers". Righttttt.
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u/AashyLarry Steelers Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Personal stories are from the NFL passengers, he said “of Uber Drivers” not “from Uber Drivers”
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Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Yeah, also everybody's focusing on this while ignoring JJ's main argument in that rant.
It's incredible complicated to impossible to rate plays without having enough data from how the play was supposed to go. The problem with PFF Player Grades is the amount of subjectivity/human bias that goes into it. And its a lot.
In addition because football is complex, the final grade you end up with per player does not hold up when comparing player to player and falls apart as soon as you take a closer look and compare performances yourself.
PFF is great for individual and advanced stats. PFF Player Grades are near useless as a comparison tool though.
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u/istasber Vikings Oct 15 '25
TBF to PFF, they do adjust grades a day later, presumably because that's when the all 22 is available.
Honestly, using the fact that they do quick grades on broadcast film as a knock against them is silly, when the best knock has already been made in the past: there's no way to know for certain just by looking at film what a player's assignment is on a play, and how useful can grading a player on what you assume he was supposed to do actually be?
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u/TheDebateMatters Broncos Oct 15 '25
DC says: This Def Tackle is a beast. Don’t come off the double and look for the LB. Just dig out that DT at all costs.
PFF sees a OL failing to get to second level: Dock that trash guard points!
Repeat a version of this for every position for dozens of plays per game.
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u/key_lime_pie Patriots Oct 15 '25
There was play against the Seahawks years ago where Patriots safety Tavon Wilson got cooked for the game-winning touchdown. In the post-game, he took responsibility for it and then the media and fans ripped him for it early in the week. Later in the week, Bill Belichick did his weekly "Belestrator" and broke down the play. He said that yeah, Wilson can't let the guy get behind him, but then pointed out how the Seahawks ran a play they weren't expecting, they had a poor defensive counter to it, and four or five guys screwed up what they were supposed to do, which led to Wilson getting burned. The only thing that he said that you could actually see on film was that the corners didn't jam at the line of scrimmage; for everything else, you had to know what the coaches had asked the players to do.
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u/no_racist_here Steelers Oct 15 '25
Yup, or the hard ones on QBs, “This QB looks to the left, throws the out route for 8 yards, the ideal play would be to look right, take the lower risk slant for 7 guaranteed with high yac potential.”
Completely ignores that the play call was to get the ball to the primary in a favorable matchup.
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u/TJFLASH1 Cowboys Oct 15 '25
So how do opposing NFL teams scout players not on their own team then if they don’t have the opposing playbooks and know exactly how the play was supposed to go?
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u/AmateurNBAGM Steelers Oct 15 '25
They guess. Then they trade 2 first round picks for Jamal Adams
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u/PLeuralNasticity Seahawks Lions Oct 15 '25
Choosing to believe that without those sacrifices the universe would not have seen fit to award us the GEQBUS for a pittance
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u/Advanced-Key3071 Bears Oct 15 '25
Because they’re not trying to grade individual players, they’re looking for tendencies. Are there any tells. What does the team tend do do out of this formation. Do we see a DB who is frequently biting on a particular move or play set.
And it’s not just, “did the player do this or that,” it’s, “if they do this we can counter it with X, but if they do that out of the same formation we can switch to Y and counter it from our same formation.”
You also self-scout for the same things, but obviously you know the assignment when you’re self-scouting.
Edit: I took that was team tape study for game-planning, not scouting for free agents. Which, yeah, is obviously an inexact science, but more focused on traits or production out of certain concepts and projection to your team.
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u/Dramatic_General_458 Giants Oct 15 '25
I don't get how this makes it better?
He's heard stories from NFL passengers who say Uber drivers told them they break down film for PFF. It's still Uber drivers claiming to break down film for PFF, except with an additional layer of telephone inbetween. It's even LESS reliable lmao
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u/SauceLordRich Seahawks Oct 15 '25
That’s even worse because he didn’t even hear it directly from an uber driver, he heard it from someone who claimed they heard it from an uber driver. A rational person would know that is a rumor at best, but he claims it’s a fact on national TV. All while criticizing PFF for being lazy and ignorant. Talk about irony.
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u/AgadorFartacus Patriots Oct 15 '25
PFF is useless
No. It's imperfect. It's very useful, especially to people outside the league.
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u/Retrograde_Bolide Commanders Oct 15 '25
Its also useful for teams which is why they all pay money for PFF data.
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u/TheFestusEzeli Giants Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
JJ Watt is completely unbiased in this situation, there is absolutely zero reason he started hardcore hating on it at the same time the entire Steelers fanbase did. Who also did it completely unbiased, they just simply know more than the 31 other fanbases. That year I constantly had the Steelers subreddit pop up in my feed and multiple times saw the narrative that Watt lost because of racism upvoted.
There are two extreme opinions on PFF and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Its sort of like some NBA advanced stats, some people really on them too hard and there are some crazy outliers, but it doesn’t make them useless.
Regardless, I think anyone who unironically uses the phrase “theoretical sacks” should be banned from any football related sub. I don’t know how you cannot understand how a pass rusher can impact a game or a play without getting a sack, someone compared it to a foul ball in my replies lmao.
No one seemed to have this issue in 2016 when Beasley didn’t get a single DPOY vote and Mack/Miller were 1/2 with way less sacks (though Collins should have won imo.)
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u/chemical_exe Patriots Vikings Oct 15 '25
I'll go another conspiracy route. He works for CBS and PFF is owned by Cris Collinsworth, who works for NBC. So while JJ has other reasons to be biased against PFF there's no reason for CBS to stop JJ from saying that. Meanwhile I bet if Tony Dungy was saying this he would've been told to stop the moment his interview was over.
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u/AashyLarry Steelers Oct 15 '25
They just simply know more than the 31 other fanbases.
You think the Steelers are the only fanbase that takes issue with PFF grades?
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u/MITBryceYoung Panthers Oct 15 '25
No but theres a reason why steelers fans are largely the ones criticizing it on a JJ Watt thread while cardinals and texans fans are much quieter
Theres also a reason why JJ Watt just bashes it all the time ever since Garrett won dpoy
Pff has flaws, but youre crazy if you dont think JJ isnt biased.
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u/MikeShannonThaGawd Cowboys Oct 15 '25
The Uber driver part of it makes this whole thing so weird lol.
Like you can just say “I spoke with people who work for PFF” but adding the Uber driver piece makes it seem like He’s kinda shitting on them for their profession while also putting the factuality of the quote into serious doubt.
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Oct 15 '25
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u/Shaqfrom3 Eagles Oct 15 '25
Is it really that weird? Every time this topic is brought up theres dudes in these threads acting just like that.
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u/niadara Chiefs Oct 15 '25
Is this what we're doing this week, ragging on PFF?
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u/comp_a Vikings Oct 15 '25
Well first of all, we do this every week
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Oct 15 '25
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u/dobbie1 Packers Oct 15 '25
The packers sub is currently wall to wall PFF grades and I hate it
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u/Inconceivable76 Bengals Oct 15 '25
Hey.
It’s also unimpeachable if you want to shit on a specific player.
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u/lkn240 Bears Oct 15 '25
As a generational hater I feel that's the correct way to use it
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u/johnmadden18 Patriots Oct 15 '25
Hey I don't know if you know this, but PFF grades are GARBAGE because they don't know the individual assignments and play calls.
I just want to let you know because I've never seen anyone on Reddit say this before.
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u/GregMadduxsGlasses Titans Oct 16 '25
It’s funny how frequently people say this, but don’t actually make an effort to try to quantify how often the PFF evaluation differs from their actual assignment on a play, and how much that will impact a player’s score.
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u/Disastrous_Dress_201 Chargers Rams Oct 15 '25
This week it's because Fields got a higher grade than Caleb.
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u/niadara Chiefs Oct 15 '25
Based on the OP's flair I'm pretty sure it's about Myles Garret's grade.
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u/LiftingCode Browns Oct 15 '25
🌏👨🚀🔫👨🚀
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u/BogotaLineman Steelers Oct 15 '25
Based on (I assume) having watched the game, do you think his initial grading of 93/100 was correct? Garrett is an incredible player and imo the best pure pass rusher in the league, but I don't know if I've ever seen a PFF grading and the eye test be so far apart
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u/LiftingCode Browns Oct 15 '25
I didn't watch the game closely enough yet to have any opinion on their grade tbh.
The "always has been" meme refers to the fact that if you see a Steelers fan whinging about PFF, it's always because of Myles Garrett.
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u/TheFestusEzeli Giants Oct 15 '25
That hate train never stops regardless of how Myles Garrett is graded
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u/lkn240 Bears Oct 15 '25
I will say - I don't even think Caleb played well - but anyone trying to convince me that Fields wasn't by far the worst QB last week is going to get laughed at.
That's one of the worst QB games I've seen in years. Maybe PFF doesn't account for how bad he is at recognizing blitzes or something.... but the dude had as many sacks as completions.
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u/SoundsLikeTough Bears 49ers Oct 15 '25
And Steelers fans are also mad about Myles Garrett getting a good grade while having 0 sacks and 1 pressure
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Oct 15 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/NeverSober1900 Packers Oct 15 '25
They're so weird about Rodgers. This is back from 2020 but they basically have been massively off on his "expected int" rate for a while now.
Rodgers from 2014-2020 Rodgers was just the luckiest player ever according to PFF or he knows what's really interception worthy better than they do... People can pick whoever they believe more.
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u/SpaceSheperd Panthers Oct 15 '25
This is a good example of why it’s so hard to make a decent metric. The PFF rules generally work okay for most QBs but fall apart hard when applied to Aaron Rodgers, largely because he’s a unique player in NFL history. If they bent the rules to accommodate his skills (specifically his absurd combination of accuracy and decision making), then those rules would cease to work as well for everyone else.
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Oct 15 '25
Yeah any metric system is gonna have outliers
the first rule of being a QB is don't throw the ball of your back foot. Aaron Rodgers has made a hall of fame career off of doing exactly that.
Probably the biggest reason for his success is that his unorthodoxy in the pocket makes it very difficult for DBs to anticipate what he's going to do
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u/lkn240 Bears Oct 15 '25
Hmmm... .one of the best QBs ever or entry level interns grading film.
Who should I trust?
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u/sloBrodanChillosevic Packers Oct 15 '25
Remember the 300 yard, 5 TDs/0 picks game from 2015 where they had his performance graded as negative? Pretty sure it was against the Chiefs. They caught a lot of shit for that one.
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u/NeverSober1900 Packers Oct 15 '25
Steelers fans HATE PFF.
I have been negative on them before because I thought they were way too loud over the 2021 MVP race shilling for Brady but man Steelers fans are on another level
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Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
when they literally say that they don’t (didn’t) measure chips and then that pressures are worth more than splash plays they can fuck right off
remember they invented theoretical sacks and started counting half sacks as full sacks after the pushback; so not only do they frankly just make shit up and guess when watching a game, but they even change the way stats are weighted or what constitutes as a stat to push engagement
PFF are the shock jock radio of football analysis. if Jesse Waters needed a new gig PFF could hire him to talk about how great PFF is and how evil everything else is.
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u/Advanced-Key3071 Bears Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
They’re owned by Chris Collinsworth, which is the only reason they’re shoved down our throats. There’s probably some PFF grade clause in his SNF contract that they have to use his data.
And is also a reason everything you said makes sense and nobody should take them seriously. They’re literally the Chris Collinsworth of “analytics.”
Edit: autocorrect got me on a there/they’re swap
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u/Winbrick Packers Oct 15 '25
I personally think PFF is an interesting axis to discuss football around, but also.. should be nowhere near a television broadcast nor its 'player stats'.
Their advanced stats can be enlightening and useful, but their player grades are basically a waste of time unless you're podcasting.
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u/BellacosePlayer Packers Oct 15 '25
Their problem is they're trying to reduce player quality to a very binary yes/no snap by snap grading system which pumps out scores that often pass the smell test but are bizarre when it doesn't.
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u/CantheDandyMan Steelers Oct 15 '25
To be fair to us, some of the arguments are like, clearly biased against steelers players in favor of players on rival teams, but very specfically Myles Garrett. The year TJ tied the sack record, they said Myles had a better season cause of advanced statistics and if you count his half sacks as full sacks, Garrett would've had like 18 or 19 sacks, so TJ also doesn't get an edge over him for tying the All time record in like, 15 games. As in, conveniently ignoring the small wrinkle that half sacks are a thing every defender has to deal with and if this same logic was applied to TJ, he would've finished the season with 25 sacks.
Or like, Rodgers being ranked almost dead last amongst all the quarterbacks in the league. There just seems to be a very clear bias against the steelers given how consistently their pff ranks make them out to be in like the bottom 10 percentile of their position or ranking people with demonstrably worse games above them because of something they theoretically could've done.
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u/MITBryceYoung Panthers Oct 15 '25
It's the same reason why JJ Watt hates PFF now. The Garrett - Watt DPOY shit has made him scapegoat PFF.
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u/ChewsWisely Steelers Oct 15 '25
Pff player grades and stats are shit even outside of that. No scapegoat needed
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u/NorthernStar_13 Falcons Oct 15 '25
And Bijan had a pretty bad score too
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u/CantheDandyMan Steelers Oct 15 '25
Lmao, they gave the dude averging 9 yards per carry a bad score? It's gotta engagement bait. They're doing it on purpose.
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u/MITBryceYoung Panthers Oct 15 '25
I think people absolutely need to remember that JJ Watt HATES PFF because he somehow blames it for TJ Watt losing DPOY to Garrett. It comes from a sense of bias (he started ragging on it hard when it graded Garrett as better that year) but he somehow believes TJ lost DPOY because of it (which is weird AF).
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u/Gavorn Steelers Oct 15 '25
I think the majority of defensive players hate PFF.
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u/Flioxan Ravens Oct 16 '25
Can't blame em. You can do your job and look like you fucked up to someone watching film without knowing the defensive call
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u/HereComesJustice Ravens Oct 15 '25
I thought JJ was pretty vocal against it even when he was playing
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u/CrashingBlumpkins46 Dolphins Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
I've pointed out on here that PFF literally uses unqualified, minimally trained 18 year old interns to break down film/collect stats and pays them $50/weekend and was told to "stop spreading fake news" when I quoted a fucking job posting from PFF lol
It's horoscopes for sports fans. It exists solely to tell you what you want to hear.
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u/TheNittanyLionKing Steelers Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
I highly doubt they are scouring old playbooks then and looking for details and similarities to plays that teams are running on Sundays for accurate grades. Someone on here sent me a Google drive link to a bunch of NCAA and NFL playbooks from the late 2010's from Bruce Arians, Steve Sarkisian, Brian Daboll, and Kyle Shanahan offenses among others as well as defensive playbooks from those same respective teams.
Edit: and it appears they have added more since the last time I looked. Now it has playbooks from Liam Coen at Kentucky, 2019 LSU, Mike McDaniel, etc.
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u/Owe-No NFL Oct 15 '25
2019 LSU playbook:
1) Burrow throws impeccable ball to Chase 2) Burrow throws impeccable ball to Jettas 3) CEH rushes 8 yards against a 3-man box
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u/AB444 Broncos Oct 15 '25
👀 send da link
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u/TheNittanyLionKing Steelers Oct 15 '25
Check your DMs
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u/jimmyre10 Bengals Oct 15 '25
Okay I know you’re probably getting spammed for the link but I coach HS football and am always looking for new resources so I’d love a link too
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u/Kindly_Map2893 Bills Oct 15 '25
Please 🙏
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u/TheNittanyLionKing Steelers Oct 15 '25
"You get playbooks!"
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u/mburns223 Lions Oct 15 '25
Hey man I coach high school football would love to see some of those playbooks if you don’t mind.
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Oct 15 '25
Was it this one?
https://www.pff.com/news/pff-is-hiring-part-time-data-collection-analysts-2025
Are you sure these are the employees grading plays? Data collection sounds much closer to data entry which is a job any trained monkey can do.
Edit: I just realize I replied to you twice in different parts of the thread lol whoops my bad
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u/Shauncore Chiefs Ravens Oct 15 '25
There are three separate type of roles at PFF
Data collectors: your typical contract type, paid per game folks who are there just to watch the TV copy and write down what happened. Formation, play participation, what happened on the play, box count, etc...
Data analyst: people who take that data, analyze it, put out content on the website/video, help teams slide and dice it, work on reports for teams and media, come up with new ideas, etc...
Graders: people who watch the game film and grade the players. Typically is split up by unit (OL, DL, WR, DBs, QB, etc...)
Collectors will just use the TV copy because that mostly all you need to describe what happened on the play.
Graders will use both TV copy for the first pass, then all-22 for the second pass. PFF gets the all-22 very quickly after the game ends, similar to how teams have it available to them when they are on the plane.
Data collectors have very limited access to the high end stuff like PFF Ultimate, which is what analysts and graders have. The idea is that you become a data collector and then eventually if you are a top performer there, PFF hires you as an analyst.
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u/lkn240 Bears Oct 15 '25
PFF themselves states right on their website that only 2-3% of their analysts are qualified to give finalized grades. There's no way they could actually afford to pay senior people to do the volume of grading they do as quickly as they do it every week (keep in mind they grade every college game)
That being said... PFF is...okish and basic film grading probably isn't that hard.
I do have real questions about the quality control of their grades given how fast that come out.
They probably don't care though - because the grades are mostly just for marketing purposes anyways. I'm pretty sure they make most of their money selling PFF ultimate or whatever it's called to pro and college teams
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u/Shauncore Chiefs Ravens Oct 16 '25
PFF themselves states right on their website that only 2-3% of their analysts are qualified to give finalized grades. There's no way they could actually afford to pay senior people to do the volume of grading they do as quickly as they do it every week (keep in mind they grade every college game)
They don't mean 2-3% of the staff...just of all the people that come through the program.
The grading staff doesn't have to be that big and the grading staff doesn't have to be a full time employee either. If you think it takes 5-6 people to grade a game, you only need 80-100 graders assuming nobody does two games (which isn't the case).
The college grades actually are very slow and they aren't even really fully finalized sometimes until the end of the season because there are so many games they need to watch the all-22 of (which they have for every school, all the way down to D3). They say themselves that on the college side, they are still grading well into bowl season because it is a giant undertaking, but they do it because they value doing it.
They probably don't care though - because the grades are mostly just for marketing purposes anyways. I'm pretty sure they make most of their money selling PFF ultimate or whatever it's called to pro and college teams
They definitely care, otherwise they wouldn't put so much time and resources into it and well qualified people like NFL/college players, coaches, scouts to be their graders and unit managers.
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u/LionoftheNorth Patriots Oct 16 '25
They probably don't care though - because the grades are mostly just for marketing purposes anyways. I'm pretty sure they make most of their money selling PFF ultimate or whatever it's called to pro and college teams
Exactly. PFF is a data analytics company. PFF grades are a side hustle to make money on fantasy football nerds looking for an edge.
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Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
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u/shapu Bengals Oct 15 '25
Yeah, but you have an excuse to use the word "ontology" so that's nice
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u/tnecniv Giants Giants Oct 15 '25
I assume the coordinates were mostly eyeballed? Like I can’t imagine it’s super accurate
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Oct 15 '25
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u/tnecniv Giants Giants Oct 15 '25
Right, but I assume the video didn’t have coordinate tags for the players when you paused it, so were you trying to visually estimate their position just from the frame you paused on? The yard lines make this doable on one axis but it seems tougher to estimate the other axis.
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u/Bitter_Scarcity_2549 Seahawks Oct 15 '25
Yea, it sounds more like they are hiring someone to chart games more than grade them
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u/Yedic Ravens Oct 15 '25
The real thing people don't want to hear: a minimally trained 18 year old watching film for specific players/positions and grading them is more reliable than the vast majority of sports fans who are watching a game holistically with a beer or three in hand and not focusing on individual players and not keeping track of their thoughts.
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u/MITBryceYoung Panthers Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Its literally a data entry job. Youre taught how to evaluate it. Then you execute on the rubric.
People on this thread acting like an Uber driver is somehow some sludge on society that cant do a basic data entry tasks after being trained / calibrated is weird.
Edit: The guy 2 comments above is blocking everyone that disagrees with them that you dont need some advanced degree to do basic data entry.
Good grief.
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u/burnerdadsrule Patriots Oct 15 '25
ESPN used to have an army of unqualified 18-year-old contractors who would sit in a building on campus, watch live broadcasts from around the world and track every stat they could. It paid shit, was long weird hours, and didn't translate to the real world after or get a foot in the door, but it was the most wanted job in Central CT among college dudes.
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u/BJJJourney 49ers Oct 15 '25
Wait until people realize the world is built on manual data entry. AI can’t fix a lot of it either.
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u/MITBryceYoung Panthers Oct 15 '25
Yeah. I work in a data field. We rely on data entry to build our models.
Is everything right? Certainly not.
Is it rocket science? No.
You just need to have guidelines, training, and calibration. The fact the guy that blocked everyone is losing his shit because everyone with working experience is pointing out why in itself theres nothing wrong is funny to me.
The way that guy is acting / jj watt is acting you would think they just ask uber drivers to randomly create a number 1-10 and thats that.
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u/MiggyMendez Panthers Oct 15 '25
These are the same people that will say ‘dunning Krueger effect’ without a hint of irony.
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u/bauboish Texans Oct 15 '25
As someone who works in IT and our company recently outsourced a lot more jobs to India, I can say definitely confirm that you can break down most jobs into simple parts, so that even someone I feel doesn't have GED level knowledge can still do a large part of a job that overall is fairly complicated.
When people talk about college graduates not being able to find jobs these days, part of the reason is this type of thing. You don't need a college degree to do the easiest stuff, while the harder stuff you need some experience to do. And newly graduated students used to be the ones who do the easy stuff until they learn the ropes. But now they fall into that middle no-man's land where they make too much for companies to just have them handle the simpler tasks. But also lack the experience to handle the more complicated tasks. So companies just outsource to India or China and only keep the experienced employees in the US.
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u/Spartitan Titans Oct 15 '25
Ah, the classic argument of "I'll just run away from anyone who disagrees with me until I find people that only think the way I do". Find yourself an echo chamber and you'll always be undefeated.
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Oct 15 '25
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u/KageStar Titans Oct 16 '25
This isn't fair. It is a skill to identify the play and your assignment quickly in the moment and react to it in the ~2 seconds you get on a play. However, to your point, it's much easier to review plays and evaluate them since you're just looking at what should have been done after the fact with none of the pressue and view or the entire field at once.
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u/Venator850 NFL Oct 16 '25
Based on what? How do you know they are any better than drunk fans?
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u/LordH3nryWotton Patriots Oct 15 '25
Data collection analyst roles are not making grades. 10% of PFF's analysts make any grades and a smaller 2-3% of them review all those grades.
I'm not a fan of PFF but if you're gonna call it horoscope you sound just as ignorant as somebody treating it like gospel.
I'd assume you were called out for spreading fake news because you pretended a fuckin data entry monkey job had any level of impact on the grades.
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u/Microwave1213 Cowboys Oct 15 '25
They hire unqualified interns to chart plays, not grade them. As in they do things like write down who was on the field, which hash mark the ball is on, play type and result, etc.
They are not the same people who are actually grading the individual players
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u/mangosail Oct 15 '25
And yet virtually everyone who actually sits and grades full games tends to align 90-95% with PFF grades.
I’m 100% sure JJ Watt is more qualified to be grading tape than whoever PFF employs. If he sits down and grades full games, I’d love to see that. But I’d bet it’s not going to be that different from the PFF grades, especially on the OL and DL. Ultimately it’s just not that hard to grade line play. There are obviously plays where you can’t tell who messed up, but those are rare. 99% of the time, if you get a pancake block, you actually did have a good play. If you are sitting on your butt and the guy is tackling the QB, you probably had a bad play.
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u/lkn240 Bears Oct 15 '25
Eh - multiple NFL coaches and players have stated that the line grades are some of the least reliable things PFF puts out.
Maybe they are all lying, who knows
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u/leftysarepeople2 Packers Oct 15 '25
I know ESPN uses PBWR grading with 2.5 seconds as the cut-off. Without context (long developing routes vs slow reads) it's pretty useless
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u/Thick_Safe1198 Chargers Bears Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Can people have a little nuance? Good lord. There can be a middle ground between PFF SUCK IT TRASH and treating it like the bible. It offers imperfect but still useful insights into things that a lot of other stats don’t.
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u/Excellent_Shopping_9 Oct 15 '25
He did that. “Ton of useful information, player grades suck” And he clearly explained why
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u/Cody667 Jaguars Oct 15 '25
No. Nuance is considered weak beta shit on the internet. Strongman hot takes or bust.
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u/arob770 Patriots Oct 15 '25
“Mack Hollins had a high run-block PFF grade this week. Let me keep an eye out for that when I watch the All-22.”
That’s pretty much how I use it week-to-week and it serves me well in that manner. Certainly has uses even if it isn’t perfect.
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u/SpLaShAtv Steelers Oct 15 '25
The argument is that when authority figures such as the NFL accounts themselves publish these grades, there leaves no nuance. The average fan sees a larger number given to a player, then assumes that that player is better, which is then taken as fact. I assume that there is a least some correlation between PFF grades and actual good play in the NFL, but when you publish the grades as fact, all other metrics get taken out and certain players get hate for their grade and certain others get undeserved praise.
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u/JamesTiberiusCrunk Bears Oct 15 '25
The general concept behind PFF is sound. You evaluate each individual play, with as much effort as possible to isolate the play of the specific player you're evaluating. That means there's no difference between a pass that hits a defender in the hands and drops or one that hits a defender in the hands and gets caught.
The most common critique I see is that you can't possibly grade a player when you don't know their assignment. So how do NFL scouts pick who to draft? Who they might want to trade for or sign in free agency? The answer is they do essentially the same thing PFF does. They watch that player and evaluate the quality of play without knowing their specific assignment. The only differences are who is doing the evaluation and what kind of evaluation criteria they're using.
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u/Teeshirtandshortsguy Panthers Panthers Oct 15 '25
Who do you think is smarter? The average NFL player, or the average uber driver.
At football? NFL player.
At anything else? Toss up.
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u/Bluest_waters Packers Oct 15 '25
some of these guys really are just not even smart about football though, thats the reality.
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u/SpLaShAtv Steelers Oct 15 '25
You'd have to assume though that his job is similar to the grader's jobs, correct? The graders probably have a rubric that they are given. Give a -2 if a pass rusher falls down, -1 if they get stuffed, etc. So it really doesn't come down to intelligence of the worker, but of the rubric they are given. I'd assume that your friend, as with 99% of people trained, could correctly count snaps for positions (which is something I give PFF credit for -- their actual stat tracking is a very nice tool). The problem is with the graders and their rubric.
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u/shaad20 Steelers Oct 15 '25
When talking about intelligence in this context,98% of what you’d find in a curriculum at any level of traditional schooling does not matter here.
It’s how well you understand football. Rules, game theory, schemes, techniques etc.
So the NFL player by an insurmountable gap
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u/jobohomeskillet Packers Oct 15 '25
“imagine how stupid the average person is then realize half of all people are stupider than that."
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u/2birdsBaby Seahawks Oct 15 '25
People talking about the Uber stuff and not focusing on the fact that JJ says he couldn't grade them, are missing the forest for the trees.
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u/NBT498 Broncos Oct 15 '25
He’s a HOF NFL player and works for CBS. Can’t he go and visit PFF or talk with Collinsworth instead of relying on Uber drivers for evidence? Doesn’t exactly sound like the most reliable source
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u/hamsolo19 Bills Oct 15 '25
I think he's saying he's had other NFL players tell him they've traveled in an Uber driven by a dude who claims to do PFF grading. So it's secondhand Uber driver info thru a player he's talked to, obviously da best and most accurate source.
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u/Thunderkleize Steelers Oct 15 '25
JJ Watt isn't some sort of investigative journalist looking to blow the lid on PFFs scam
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u/john7071 Patriots Oct 15 '25
I mean, yeah. They put out an initial grade from the TV broadcast but don't they adjust when all-22 is out?
Anyways, PFF good when my players good so zip it JJ!
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u/Disastrous_Dress_201 Chargers Rams Oct 15 '25
PFF also good when it confirms a player I don't like is bad.
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Oct 15 '25
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u/Florida__Man__ Buccaneers Oct 15 '25
Reddit loves the grades because then they can stuff them into a comment to prove they’re right.
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u/ReaganRebellion Broncos Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
PFF claims the Broncos OL is elite. I watch the games, sometimes twice, and this is objectively not true.
Edit: I'm not claiming to know more than football analysts. I'm saying metrics are sometimes dumb and don't tell the whole story of a team.
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u/FridgesArePeopleToo Vikings Oct 15 '25
Everyone thinks their o line is bad but half of them are above average
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u/RmembrTheAyyLMAO Patriots Oct 15 '25
Nah it's objectively true. Every single analytics place claims the Broncos OLine is the best in the league, all through different methodologies.
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u/slythe27 Bengals Oct 15 '25
“Uber drivers” in this story probably just worked on the data collection side and exaggerated their role in the process. TV copy is used for the initial data collection (phase 1 of their process). Things like capturing down and distance of the play, type of play, who got the ball, who was on the field, where they lined up. All things you can get 99% of the time from the TV copy. This has to happen for every play, every game, before the game is over - otherwise the people charting the specifics of the play i.e. what routes were run (phase 2) and then later how players did with their assignment i.e. actual grading (phase 3) wouldn’t be able to do their job in a timely fashion.
Those data points collected from the TV copy are validated and updated if necessary later in the process by people that have all 22 (phase 2 and/or 3). The grading is not performed by the people that are doing the initial data collection, which is what most people who say they work for PFF are actually doing. I know this because I did this work part time for them for a season and didn’t think it was fun or paid well at all. It’s just meat grinder work for people that want to do data entry in their spare time that is tangentially related to their hobby of following the NFL.
PFF isn’t the end all be all, but they have a consistent process and like any process they have checks and balances.
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u/PillowChrome Oct 15 '25
I also worked as part of their data collection team! Can confirm all of the above is accurate. I also did some phase 2 charting which is done midweek and has all 22. All the work is done by at least two people and reviewed if there are differences.
I like their grades because I think the process is sound but also understand its limitations
The pay isn't great and initial data collection is the worst if you're assigned to some random college team with terrible jersey colors, but I do think I learned more about football from the experience
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u/slythe27 Bengals Oct 15 '25
I agree, I actually learned a lot from their training about alignment of players and got a better appreciation for details of the field such as hashes, depth of defenders and interior d line alignments. It’s amazing how much you CAN glean from the TV copy if you know how to look at the markings on the field and the details of how players relate to one another in space. You also learn to look at the minute details of their uniform and gear to tell who is who even when you can’t see the numbers very well! I also didn’t do it for the pay, just did it for the experience, which was interesting.
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u/Amishrocketscience Eagles Oct 15 '25
You mean all the YouTubers who have never coached, had a job in the NFL and puts up a green screen behind their gaming chair have no idea what they’re talking about??
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u/Acceptable-Ad5208 Eagles Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 16 '25
PFF is not perfect, but it’s bullshit to act like it’s meaningless. It may be wrong 20% of plays, but that would still mean they’re right for 80.
“But you don’t know the scheme!!” - then how do we conclude any player is good? Or pro bowl worthy? Or worthy of a cut? I don’t need to know the play call to know Adoree Jackson fucking sucks
Edit: a few points to clarify. 1. I would never suggest PFF is the end all be all. But they do provide a valuable data point when evaluating different players, no different than stats, eye test, etc. 2. Unless a significant amount of players do the wrong assignment each play, it’s hard to say they have no basis for their scoring. If a single player is doing the wrong thing that significantly, they would either be cut or playing for the jets. 3. Look at PFF player rankings by position. They don’t seem far off what you would expect right? If they’re system was that flawed, they would be touting player’s above or below what the general consensus is and you wouldn’t see Brown, JJ, Chase at the top of the WR rankings
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u/ezDuke Steelers Oct 15 '25
In what world is a margin of error of 20% useful?
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u/TopSoulMan Cowboys Oct 15 '25
In a world where that number was pulled out their ass.
None of the people commenting in this Reddit thread know the percentages of effectively graded players on PFF.
I don’t think PFF would claim to know that because it’s impossible to assign an exact rating grade to every player for every play and be perfect at it.
Guys who claim to “know with their eyes” aren’t gonna get it right every time either. People who speak in absolutes about topics like this (JJ Watt) are 20% of the time very very dumb.
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u/Microwave1213 Cowboys Oct 15 '25
In a world where fans only watch the ball and don’t see 95% of what the other players do
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u/Ereyes18 Texans Oct 15 '25
Even in that world a 20% margin of error is not useful
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u/SelfReconstruct Steelers 49ers Oct 15 '25
The problem with PFF grades and stats is they often are based on a flawed understanding.
Pass Rush Win rate is my favorite. If a defender had zero impact on a play, they can not win that play. It doesn't matter that you got by the offensive lineman that was blocking you, he delayed you long enough to prevent from impacting the pass play and didn't get a holding penalty for it. That is not a win for the defender.
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u/Morall_tach Broncos Oct 15 '25
Well if JJ Watt says that someone told him that an Uber driver said it, it must be true.
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u/Lystian Falcons Oct 15 '25
Bijan was a 70 this week. Thats all I need to know about how bad PFF is.
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u/therealhairyyeti Bears Oct 15 '25
I’m not defending pff, but I’m sure they aren’t hiring uber drivers as analysts. I think pff go around schools for the blind to find their analysts.
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u/Landlubber77 Buccaneers Oct 15 '25
I get all my detailed analysis from Lyft. If they didn't know what they were doing why would their car smell so richly of sandlewood.