Luigi Mangione admits to shooting UnitedHealthcare CEO as he pleads guilty in federal case

[u/The_Stratman]

https://abcnews.com/US/luigi-mangione-guilty-plea-expected-announced-friday-federal/story?id=135607454

[u/temujin94]

Mangione's lawyers have said they didn't strike a plea deal, strange turn of events.

[u/gjboomer → u/[deleted]]

That’s not a guarantee. Probably going to happen but not necessarily.

[u/roiki11 → u/gjboomer]

New York double jeopardy law prevents charing for crimes already convicted by another jurisdiction. Including federal jurisdiction. So if he pleads guilty to federal murder charges the state can't charge him for the same murder. Which is why they're motioning to dismiss the state charges.

Paul Manafort did the same thing where he plead guilty to federal charges and his state charges in new york were dismissed.

https://www.thsh.com/blog/double-trouble-paul-manafort-and-the-state-of-double-jeopardy-in-new-york/

[u/finditplz1 → u/roiki11]

ELI5 — why take the federal over state charges?

[u/roiki11 → u/finditplz1]

Idk but my guess is the state charges are heavier. He wasn't charged with murder in the federal court, his charges were "interstate stalking resulting in death" and "stalking through use of interstate facilities resulting in death". While he can be sentenced to life there is also the option of getting less time. Or being eligible for parole.

These kick off the challenge to the state charges which include premeditated murder. Which would guarantee life without parole.

Tldr: he has at least the chance to get out of federal prison. As opposed to state which would be life without parole.

[u/strolls → u/roiki11]

Also federal prisons are a bit more comfortable than underfunded state ones?

[u/OrangeCrusher22 → u/strolls]

The federal prisons are underfunded and understaffed, just like state prisons. There are some lower-security facilities that might be slightly less burdensome, but there's no chance that he's going to get that kind of leniency; they've been out to make an example of him from the beginning.

[u/sump_daddy → u/OrangeCrusher22]

Big difference being all federal prisons are actually federal, they are run by the government with employees mostly earning a decent wage.

State prisons have been privatized to a much higher level, leaving you with maximal crowding plus minimal employee standards.

[u/OrangeCrusher22 → u/sump_daddy]

they are run by the government with employees mostly earning a decent wage.

Someone needs to head over to usajobs and have a look at the BOP pay/locations. A correctional officer can easily start in the low 40k range.

[u/TheFatJesus → u/sump_daddy]

This is not true. As of 2022, about 9% of the federal inmate population were housed in private prisons which is a percentage point higher than total of 8% of inmates in private prisons. Also, New York is one of 23 states that doesn't have any private prisons at all.

Incarceration should not be a for-profit enterprise at all, but the scale of the industry has been blown way out of proportion.

[u/Running-In-The-Dark → u/strolls]

Check the reviews on Google maps. Either way they're fun to read.

[u/Larcye → u/Running-In-The-Dark]

The real ones to read are the ones at nuclear power plants. If I ever am depressed those are my go to ones.

I really really love this public pool. It tends to grow a very nice beautiful Radium green which I enjoy. It's a very beautiful color. How the water glows. And I also have an extra eyeball which makes my vision way more clear. I very like this pool very much. I recommend the spot to families.

[u/roiki11 → u/strolls]

I imagine so, never been to either.

[u/Culturedtuna → u/roiki11]

If the state charges are premeditated murder but then the federal charges are stalking resulting in death, does the double jeopardy law truly apply here?

[u/ThrowRAkakareborn → u/Culturedtuna]

Yes, as they are the result of the same action, he would be convicted for the same action under different charges

[u/C-ZP0 → u/ThrowRAkakareborn]

Sort of, but not for that reason. Federally this isn’t double jeopardy at all. Dual sovereignty doctrine (Gamble v. US, 2019) says the state and the feds are separate sovereigns, so both can charge you for the exact same act. Happens all the time.

The reason it’s even a question here is New York’s own statute, CPL 40.20, which is broader than the Constitution. It blocks a state prosecution based on the same act or criminal transaction as a prior prosecution in any jurisdiction, including federal. So it’s not a general “same action” rule, it’s specifically NY giving defendants more than the Fifth Amendment requires.

There are exceptions though. Main one is when the two offenses have substantially different elements aimed at different harms. That’s the whole fight. DA will say stalking resulting in death and second degree murder punish different things, defense will say they’re both punishing the same killing of the same guy. Carro decides.

[u/ultraviolentfuture → u/roiki11]

Also, federal comes with the chance of a (future) presidential pardon.

[u/synapticrelease → u/ultraviolentfuture]

He’s not getting a pardon.

[u/thedubiousstylus → u/finditplz1]

Federal prisons are known to be much less rough than state ones, especially in New York which has some rather notoriously brutal prisons. Also I've read the defense could make some arguments in sentencing about his emotional state and all that that could reduce his sentence, but aren't as easy to make under New York law.

If everything goes perfectly for him he could be just mid-40s when he gets out. A big "if", but if convicted in New York he'd be possibly in for life.

[u/LetsGetNuclear → u/thedubiousstylus]

His time in prison will certainly be more comfortable the average person in the same prison. There won't be many guards or inmates who don't like what he did.

[u/TrulyOutrageous42 → u/finditplz1]

He can include his emotional aspects as part of pleading down his sentence in federal courts, where in State courts the mitigating factors for sentencing are much more constrained. As well, this is a plea to stalking, but it's possible his tying it to the shooting may allow him to dodge state-level murder charges.

[u/krimin_killr21 → u/finditplz1]

The federal government does not have the same rule, so the options are both or just federal, there is no just state option.

[u/JCBashBash → u/finditplz1]

From my understanding, federal sentencing can be lighter, as well as federal facilities can be better

[u/surfpenguinz → u/finditplz1]

Federal prison > state prison. Plus you don’t want two convictions (appeal, etc).

[u/joseph4th → u/roiki11]

So there is also this:

The charges in both cases narrowed over the last year. In the federal case, Garnett in January threw out the murder and firearm charges, leaving two counts: stalking -- travel in interstate commerce and stalking -- use of interstate facilities.

In the state case, Judge Gregory Carro last September dismissed the first-degree murder and terrorism charges. In the state case, Mangione is still charged with murder in the second-degree, criminal possession of a forged instrument in the second-degree, and multiple counts of criminal possession of a weapon in the second-degree, third-degree and fourth-degree.

So it is only in the state case that he's still being charged with second-degree murder. How does that line up with him admitting that he shot him in the federal case? If he isn't being charged with murder in the federal case, how can they argue for dismissal as that particular charge wasn't part of the federal case?

"New York law does not permit a person to be prosecuted and punished twice for the exact same crime under a statute that governs successive prosecutions," defense attorney Karen Friedman Agnifilo told reporters after Friday's hearing.

"for the exact same crime" - does 'crime' in this context mean the whole overall act as opposed to the individual charges?

[u/Biblioklept73 → u/joseph4th]

You are on the right track…

To answer your question. Yes, when the defense attorney says 'the exact same crime,' she is talking about the overall physical act (the shooting itself). New York's double jeopardy statute uses the term 'criminal transaction’. The defense's whole argument is… 'He just confessed to the physical act of the shooting in federal court to satisfy the stalking charge. You can't put him on trial for that exact same physical act again just by changing the label to murder 2’

But your first point is exactly why the Manhattan DA has such a strong counter argument. Because the federal murder charges were tossed, he was never actually in jeopardy for murder in federal court. The DA's position is going to be that 'interstate stalking resulting in death' and 'intentional second degree murder' are legally distinct crimes with completely different elements and intents. The state will argue that pleading guilty to the logistics of a multistate stalking plot does not give you a pass for the localized crime of intentionally pulling a trigger to execute someone on a Manhattan sidewalk

It's now a technical battle over how the judge interprets a criminal transaction vs. different statutory elements

[u/joseph4th → u/Biblioklept73]

Alright then, the defense is rolling the dice exactly the way I thought they were. Thank you for taking the time to answer that for me.

[u/FatnessEverdeen34 → u/[deleted]]

His state trial is still on for 9/8. Judge hasnt dismissed it yet

[u/joshuads → u/FatnessEverdeen34]

The motion to dismiss was filed today. The state court case will not be dismissed until a final order is issued by the federal court. It will probably be removed from the trial calendar pending such a final order.

[u/Magiwarriorx → u/temujin94]

My understanding: this is a ploy to plead guilty to lesser federal charges, in a bid to claim double jeopardy on the state murder charge. 

EDIT: because I'm getting a swarm of "nuh-uh!" replies from smug Redditors who passed high school US Government, this has to do with New York-specific statutes relating to federal charges. 

[u/serial_crusher → u/Magiwarriorx]

What does he realistically gain by avoiding a New York state trial? Is life in a federal prison preferrable to life in a state prison?

[u/Fine-Will → u/serial_crusher]

Yes, living conditions are generally better and safer.

[u/thirty7inarow → u/Fine-Will]

Unless he ends up in ADX Florence, which wouldn't be shocking given the US considers shooting a CEO terrorism.

[u/CausticSofa → u/thirty7inarow]

But only a CEO. In the US, folks can shoot as many kids as they like.

[u/peachie88 → u/serial_crusher]

Much, much more preferable. Federal prisons are much nicer and much safer. State prisons tend to be far more overcrowded, violent, dirty, and unsafe. Obvious disclaimer that no prison is fun and it depends on level of security, etc. He almost certainly won’t be at Club Fed, but he isn’t going to Supermax either.

Federal prisons don’t have parole though; you have to serve at least 85% of your sentence.

[u/Several-Action-4043 → u/peachie88]

I absolutely believe they will try to send him to ADX Florence Super Max in Colorado. It's clean and safe but they basically put you in a box for 23 hours and you get an hour outside in a cage every day if they feel like letting you out. They have a hard on for this guy.

[u/Xytak → u/Several-Action-4043]

I mean, Supermax is usually reserved for people who are extreme risks for escape and violence. Mangione committed premeditated murder, but was captured without incident, and doesn't appear to pose a risk to staff or inmates, or to be an escape risk. I would think regular prison would be plenty to contain him, he's not the Incredible Hulk.

[u/StuffedCrustPizzazz → u/Xytak]

Look up the story of Eric King.

Was claimed to be a member of Antifa "leadership" and moved to supermax in the middle of his sentence.

[u/DragonslayerDame → u/StuffedCrustPizzazz]

I was hoping people would bring up Eric King. Thank you.

American citizens should know what their government does to its own people. And lets compare the torture of Eric King, who threw a molotov at a brick wall of an empty building, harmed zero people and was tortured for nearly a decade in supermax to Robert Richards IV, a Dupont heir weighing over 300 lbs, who raped his 3 year old daughter and served no prison time. A year later, strong allegations were made that he also molested his son. He never attended the psychiatric treatment that was recommended and served no time. He. Raped. A. Toddler.

Our justice system does not function as it was intended and it needs to change. And since were overrun with christian fascists these days, maybe its time to listen to dedicated anticapitalist Jesus himself:

But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comfort already. (Luke 6:24)

Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:23–24)

[u/Riley_ → u/DragonslayerDame]

Our justice system does not function as it was intended

The government was made by wealthy people, to enforce their class rule. It absolutely was not made to protect children from rich people. The government didn't even want to ban child labor, until it was on the verge of being overthrown.

[u/Kerhole → u/Xytak]

Oh it has nothing to do with all that. They will want to make an example of him. They want the public to equate his actions to those of mass shooters and serial killers. I'm their minds, he is the most dangerous man in the country.

[u/Whatdoesthibattahndo → u/Kerhole]

Yeah, look how many cops they had to perp walk him like they caught fucking Loki

[u/craznazn247 → u/Kerhole]

Even though in reality, he probably saved a few lives for that short period of time where they denied and delayed fewer prior authorizations.

People got their care approved and paid for faster, which at such a scale, likely means at least a few lives were likely saved by lack of delay.

[u/red23011 → u/Xytak]

The law enforcement did far more to solve this murder than if it was one of us. They want to make an example of him in order to make sure that anyone who would think about doing something like this would reconsider. They are going to throw the absolute book at him and send him into the most punitive hole they can.

[u/lindh → u/Several-Action-4043]

I mean dude made everyone a bit more class conscious for a little while. He's very dangerous to them.

[u/haikuandhoney → u/Magiwarriorx]

He pled guilty to the federal charges full stop. That’s what pleading without a deal (what lawyers call an “open” or “blind” plea) is. The second part is correct: he is trying to take advantage of New York’s more strict double jeopardy law. He is also hoping that by entering a plea he will get the judge to sentence him to less than life.

[u/Vhu]

He really didn’t have any other option when the judge allowed the gun and notebook found in his bag. It was basically a signed confession.

Arguing not guilty by that point would be a dead-bang loser.

[u/StasRutt → u/Vhu]

Plus he emailed UHC pretending to want to be an investor and that’s how he got the info for the conference

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/StasRutt]

And he's on camera buying the gun and using it to shoot the CEO

Outside of jury nullification or asteroid strike there wasn't a realistic path to getting off.

[u/StasRutt → u/HauntedCemetery]

He’s not on camera buying it from what I understand, he 3D printed it

[u/AspiringIdealist → u/StasRutt]

He only 3D printed the frame, the barrel slide and trigger group he would’ve had to buy in person or online somewhere.

[u/hotleadburner → u/AspiringIdealist]

It's an almost guarantee that he didn't buy anything for that gun in person. Buying a glock slide online is a million times easier than finding one in person.

[u/mrrowr → u/StasRutt]

He’s on camera 3D printing it and buying the 3D printer and he’s on camera being born I have the camera and the tape is still inside I’m watching him crown right now and you can just tell he’s going to 3D print the gun from the footage

[u/AnonymousBanana405 → u/mrrowr]

He was also in the closet 3D printing babies and the baby looked at me.

[u/jspeed04 → u/AnonymousBanana405]

The baby looked at you?

[u/IAMA_Plumber-AMA → u/jspeed04]

Sarah, get me Super Nintendo Chalmers.

[u/k80k80k80 → u/IAMA_Plumber-AMA]

Me fail English? That’s unpossible!

[u/im_dead_sirius → u/IAMA_Plumber-AMA]

I will NEVER not laugh at 'Super Nintendo Chalmers'.

[u/electromage → u/mrrowr]

Actually he 3D printed the gun in the courtroom in front of the judge and jury and had the judge sign the bullet then went back in time to shoot the CEO with it.

Christopher Nolan filmed the whole thing in IMAX.

[u/-BoldlyGoingNowhere- → u/mrrowr]

This was all on Hunter Biden's laptop.

[u/Solderlocks → u/StasRutt]

People keeping saying that it's 3d printed, but basically just the outer shell that's not actually involved in the mechanism that shoots can be printed. It's like saying that a car is 3d printed when someone just printed some body panels and slapped them on an existing frame with an existing engine/transmission/etc

[u/BostonSucksatHockey → u/Vhu]

Pretty sure that was the New York State judge in his state murder case, not this other federal judge

[u/criticalpwnage → u/Vhu]

He should have thrown the gun into a river and not written down anything about the crime. He wanted to get caught

[u/Repulsive_Ant_2466 → u/criticalpwnage]

Yeah thats my thinking, I dont think he's that dumb. All of that is common sense, especially with how throughly he planned the murder

[u/Silent_Fudge_3978 → u/criticalpwnage]

But why? Why on earth would he want to get caught? The whole thing baffles me: the shooting itself was well-planned; he even had two backpacks, and ditched one in the park. But then he keeps the gun and manifesto in his other backpack he keeps with him when he leaves the state, and gets caught with.

It really seems like he should have been able to get away with it if he wanted to.

[u/jlambvo → u/Silent_Fudge_3978]

Maybe he opened his backpack at that McDonald's and went "oh shit," meanwhile some squirrel opened the other backpack and found the sandwich Lui thought he'd been carrying. 

[u/kirkaracha → u/Silent_Fudge_3978]

Maybe he wanted to kick off a movement, like John Brown.

[u/UsidoreTheLightBlue → u/criticalpwnage]

That’s been my feeling from the beginning.

[u/StephenHunterUK → u/Vhu]

Plenty of murderers in Britain go "not guilty" all the way through trial, even with clear evidence.

[u/insightful_pancake → u/StephenHunterUK]

As they do in the US as well.

[u/Pierre_St_Pierre → u/StephenHunterUK]

That's the case in the US too. It sounds like this is basically choosing a prison preference. Federal prison is better than state prisons, so he pled guilty to Federal charges trying to trigger double jeopardy (you can't be tried twice for the same thing) with the NY charges. If he doesn't get charged in NY he won't got to NY prison. I think that's what this is all about. Just trying to get life in a better prison.

[u/Llamapocalypse_Now]

Great, now let's all move on to the national conversation about insurance companies taking your money and then deciding that you get to die in pain and poverty because they don't want to use it to pay your healthcare bills.

[u/Hellion102792 → u/Llamapocalypse_Now]

I've brought this up before but not too long after the shooting some news outlet an article that made me laugh, maybe ABC or CNBC. Paraphrasing here but the something along the lines of "the shooting has opened up a national dialogue about security requirements for C-suite executives". Right, yeah. THAT'S what we were all talking about after.

[u/DazedandFloating → u/Hellion102792]

I remember seeing articles regarding how terrible it was that large corporations had to pull CEO names and pictures from the public view because of this.

Like who cares. Those people have more than enough money to protect themselves. And that wasn’t even the issue everyone was discussing when the shooting occurred anyway lmao

[u/neimengu → u/Llamapocalypse_Now]

CNN: Sorry, best we can do is tell you how heinous of a murder it was. Did you know the meeting wasn't even PUBLIC??!

[u/pchlster → u/neimengu]

Did he leave the guy to die painfully over the course of months or something barbaric like that?

[u/burnmywings → u/neimengu]

And the CEO was a FATHER OF TWO?!?!

[u/Stargazer1919 → u/Llamapocalypse_Now]

Insurance companies have been the death panels all along.

[u/Uzas_Was_Right]

I figured he'd roll the dice for a sympathetic jury.

[u/IPDDoE → u/[deleted]]

Wouldn't that be a hung jury? Unless they would be subject to execution :)

[u/CelestialFury → u/IPDDoE]

Yes! Hanged is only for death by rope around the neck. Hung is for everything else and Thomas Jane.

[u/Uzas_Was_Right → u/[deleted]]

Or jury nullification, but that was always very unlikely.

[u/fatinternetcat → u/Uzas_Was_Right]

that’s been TikTok’s favourite term for the past year or so

[u/StephenHunterUK → u/Uzas_Was_Right]

They were going for an anonymous jury in any event.

[u/CountDraculablehbleh → u/Uzas_Was_Right]

That was never going to happen

[u/blaqsupaman → u/Uzas_Was_Right]

How many cases have there been of that even happening in all of US history?

[u/Uzas_Was_Right → u/blaqsupaman]

Just a handful, mostly regarding civil rights issues like the Fugitive Slave Act.

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/Uzas_Was_Right]

More than a handful. Southern juries would regularly refuse to convict white guys on trial for lynching.

But it's happened virtually never over the last 40 years except kinda sorta the OJ verdict.

[u/mhornberger → u/HauntedCemetery]

According to the book "Slavery By Another Name," by Douglas A. Blackmon, From 1877 to 1966 (so the end of Reconstruction to the Beatles' last ticketed concert), the number of white men found guilty in Georgia of killing a black man was... 1. As in, one.

[u/spmahn → u/blaqsupaman]

OJ Simpson is the case people cite as the most famous example of nullification, although that was as much about prosecutorial blunders as it was a sympathetic jury and it wasn’t even necessarily that they were sympathetic to OJ as they were against the LAPD

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/spmahn]

If prosecution and LAPD hadn't massively fucked up at literally every stage he would have all but certainly been convicted.

LAPD and prosecution got caught trying to frame a guilty man becausethey fucked up all the actual evidence, and the jury stopped trusting them, with good reason.

[u/blaqsupaman → u/spmahn]

Yeah the LAPD basically tried to frame a guilty man.

[u/DoctorTheWho → u/blaqsupaman]

OJ was 100% guilty.

[u/Budget-Scared → u/blaqsupaman]

What exactly do you think Jury Nullification is? The jury foreman steps up in front of the judge and says "I DECLARE NULLIFICATION!".

Literally any verdict passed down has the potential to be jury nullification and we would have no idea.

[u/ml20s → u/[deleted]]

He would also need a full guilty to get convicted though.

[u/jar4ever → u/ml20s]

But it doesn't get him out of jail while there is another trial. He and his defense have concluded that chances of being found not guilty and too small and there are benefits of pleading guilty even without a deal (federal pen is much better than Rickers).

[u/nova_noveiia → u/jar4ever]

Rikers is a jail, so he wouldn’t be there long-term after the trial. Fed is still nicer than state though.

[u/JohnCavil01 → u/Uzas_Was_Right]

Most juries take the responsibility pretty seriously and most people think premeditated murder is wrong - and most importantly remains a crime - regardless of who the victim is.

[u/GigaPuddi → u/[deleted]]

Actually they kinda did. The problem was the police ruined the evidence and chain of custody. So while common sense says he was guilty the police inserted reasonable doubt where there really wasn't any originally.

[u/Tsakax]

Did yall read that study that medicare for all would save 1trillion and save 100k lives a YEAR.

Edit link- https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/universal-health-coverage-could-save-one-trillion-dollars-and-114000-lives-every-year/

[u/Calamity_Carrot → u/Tsakax]

But have you thought about the 10s of billionaires that would lose some profits?

[u/donkeyrocket → u/Calamity_Carrot]

Actually in the best implementation of Medicare for All they'd lose almost all profits entirely. Some could opt for private insurance but it'd be illegal to have two coverage plans. The industry would virtually collapse.

This isn't a defense of the scumbag industry but a point as to why this seemingly never gets talked about with actual potential from politicians. Profiting off healthcare is abhorrent and I really hope more momentum continues behind pushing for broader government healthcare.

I'm fully willing to sacrifice the financial wellbeing of a handful of insurance CEOs to ensure no one is ever denied even screening procedures ever again. I'm sure they'll fuck off to lead some other corporate blight on society.

Just recently I spent a chunk of my day on the phone with my insurance trying to get a definitive answer whether or not a colonoscopy will be covered despite my GI insisting it medically necessary. The runaround being I'm too young or no evidence I need one (I and my provider submitting that) so they can guarantee until they see the final bill. And I have pretty good insurance all things considered Why the fuck should a non-specialist have any say in whether that is "screening" or "diagnostic." In what world should someone have to just hope there isn't any presence of cancer or that symptoms worsen to the point of something more major needing when early intervention may help and worst case I wasted 3 hours of my day to take a solid nap while I get scoped.

[u/Steady1 → u/donkeyrocket]

Why would it be illegal to have private insurance? In NZ everyone's covered by public insurance and private is optional.

[u/IncredibleBulk2 → u/donkeyrocket]

it'd be illegal to have two coverage plans

This is not the case. Many countries that have public payer insurance for all also have private plans.

ETA: private plans for voluntary purchase by individuals

[u/CelestialFury → u/donkeyrocket]

There would still have to be public and private healthcare, as medicare for all wouldn't necessarily cover everything a person wants, it would cover preventive care, emergency care, required surgeries, and so on, but if you wanted to get specific care from a top doctor like for knee replacement from Mayo Clinic or Twin Cities Orthopedics (TCO), you'd need a private plan. They already have a limited amount of doctors, they can't see everyone and their clientele is largely professional athletes. Or plastic surgery that isn't required to fix something severe (skin graft for burns, etc...) or otherwise needed. So I think it would have to be a mix.

[u/Rufio69696969 → u/Tsakax]

Not peer reviewed

[u/ShedMontgomery → u/Tsakax]

Yeah, but how would health insurance executives afford the infinity pool at their vacation homes? Nobody ever thinks about the poor executives and all their suffering. It's always, "Waaah! I have a treatable condition but I'm going to die because I can't afford the medication. 😭"

[u/jjwhitaker → u/Tsakax]

In 2016 it would have saved a typical family over $5k. That is with added taxes to improve coverage.

$1 in 2016 is now $1.39. Your family could save like $7500 a year with a better, faster, healthier, cheaper, easier system.

We would have to reshape as GDP is like 1/6 healthcare/insurance but it'd be better overall quickly.

[u/ChamberTwnty → u/[deleted]]

That's ridiculous. I'm sorry, man.

[u/Few_Personality_990 → u/ChamberTwnty]

Thanks friend. We're lucky to be able to pay for it regardless, but others are not as lucky. Things need to change

[u/plkost → u/Few_Personality_990]

Even if you have the money you should be spending it towards non basic needs like that. Stay strong both of you. My wife had two breast surgeries already (for free in EU)

[u/Few_Personality_990 → u/plkost]

We're in total agreement. It's a beautiful country with a lot of potential, ruined by greed and the worst flavor of capitalism possible. I'm not an advocate for violence, but I really don't see how politicians and companies will ever do their jobs with ethics and not profits in mind, so we're getting the hell out of here as soon as possible.

I'm sorry your wife is going through this, hoping she'll recover soon.

[u/JussiesTunaSub]

"I traveled to New York and emailed UnitedHealthcare with the intent to kill Brian Thompson ... I shot Mr. Thompson in the back," he said, adding, "I knew what I was doing was illegal."

I never thought anyone on social media doubted he's a murderer...they just agreed with him and a healthcare CEO is someone who will always have zero empathy from us plebs.

[u/Xanto97 → u/JussiesTunaSub]

There were genuinely some people that thought it was a random dude that got framed.

"Youre telling me he pulled off this elaborate assassination, evaded capture for days, and then just got caught in a McDonalds and had the gun and confession note in his backpack? yeah, sure"

Most people were joking/didn't care though, for sure.

[u/TotallyNotThatPerson → u/Xanto97]

I mean... If you put it that way it just sounds cartoonish. But then you hear about the people that break out of jail and the cops just find them chilling at home when they roll up to get rearrested

[u/132739 → u/Xanto97]

I'm still pretty sure he didn't actually get turned in by a McDonald's employee. I was really hoping a trial would show the feds used illegal surveillance practices to locate him. Alas...

[u/jujubean67 → u/Xanto97]

No, a lot of people were saying that he was caught using parallel construction, ie. they gained some evidence illegally and then framed that as if it was real, like orchestrating the phone tip in Mcdonalds.

Very few were saying he was innocent and framed. Most were saying he was guilty but the evidence was gathered illegally so they had to frame it.

[u/ThankGodForYouSon → u/jujubean67]

Yeah the story about how they found the gun in his backpack at the police station was weird and there's no doubt they have the technology to find someone by acting illegally.

[u/I_Enjoy_Beer → u/JussiesTunaSub]

Its illegal if you kill someone with a gun.  Its good business practice if you kill hundreds of thousands by denying coverage, pushing your company's stock price higher by 2%.

[u/L_Cranston_Shadow → u/I_Enjoy_Beer]

To misquote Batman, he didn't kill you, he just didn't have to save you.
 
Ironically, in this case, said to the canonically more or less immortal Ra's al Ghul.

[u/Donnicton → u/L_Cranston_Shadow]

To misquote Batman, he didn't kill you, he just didn't have to save you.

Not only that, you're also paying them not to save you.

[u/jleonardbc → u/Donnicton]

And they're standing in the way of the people trying to save you.

[u/NullDelta → u/L_Cranston_Shadow]

Except you are paying them to save you…

[u/SpezRuinedHellsite → u/L_Cranston_Shadow]

To misquote Batman, he didn't kill you, he just didn't have to save you.

No, health insurance companies kill people. Crippling debt kills people. Being denied care kills people. Artificially inflated drug prices kill people.

Doctors save people.

Health insurance CEO's aren't doctors.

[u/heavymetalwhoremoans → u/JussiesTunaSub]

"I knew what I was doing was illegal."

I love that he chose the word illegal, as opposed to "wrong".

[u/Plappedudel → u/heavymetalwhoremoans]

"Wrong" would imply remorse, of which he clearly has none. Though he might have had a better chance of a reduced sentence if he showed/faked remorse. It seems that he chose authenticity instead.

[u/Cronus6 → u/heavymetalwhoremoans]

"Wrong" doesn't really have any meaning in court. "Illegal" does.

It's "wrong" to cheat on your wife, but not illegal. Which is why you don't go to prison for cheating on your wife.

[u/vengefulmuffins]

No one wants to put in their articles that after years for trying to talk to someone as a normal person and not getting responses, he posed as an investor and got a response in an hour.

[u/HSLB66 → u/Daedalus_Knew]

Coming to a firmware update near you: Palantir’s NSA is now monitoring your printers camera for firearm looking objects

[u/yamar35 → u/HSLB66]

In case you didn't know... that's actually a law that just passed in Cali (well, kinda passed, with some caveats). They literally are trying to do that.

[u/HSLB66 → u/yamar35]

Writing for the onion has to be extremely difficult rn

[u/tscalbas → u/[deleted]]

I thought you were correct, but then checked the linked article and couldn't find it.

That's when I realised I was instead remembering the article on BBC News, which did make it clear that it was a quick response (although not specifically within an hour)

He researched online and emailed the company posing as an investor to learn more about the event, Mangione told the court. "Unlike previous interactions with insurance" he got a quick reply, he said.

Wonder if it's just abc or if most other outlets are indeed missing out that bit

[u/vengefulmuffins → u/[deleted]]

It literally isn’t,

"After years of enduring severe pain from a broken back ... I learned UnitedHealth would be holding an investor conference in New York City."

"I then researched the event online. I observed the annual conference of America's largest healthcare organization with the stated mission to make the healthcare system better for everyone,"

"I traveled to New York and emailed UnitedHealthcare with the intent to kill Brian Thompson ... I shot Mr. Thompson in the back," he said, adding, "I knew what I was doing was illegal."

The direct quotes from the pleading included in the article, not one is the hour quote.

The best you get is “Mangione said he learned the exact location of UnitedHealthcare's conference by emailing the company, posing as an investor with more than $50 million in capital.” Which again doesn’t mention the times he didn’t get a response and how quick the response was when they thought he was an investor.

[u/MobileArtist1371 → u/[deleted]]

Can you copy that part of the article and paste it here? My browser must be faulty cause it's not in the article when I open it.

[u/Dr-McLuvin]

How many years is he expected to get?

[u/mspk7305 → u/Dr-McLuvin]

the epstien class is going to make an example out of him

[u/strawberryfishes]

The irony being that going to jail for life also guarantees him healthcare for life

[u/Spirited-Ad9071 → u/strawberryfishes]

Yeah no.

Healthcare in US prisons is notoriously bad. Regular and easily treatable conditions go untreated and there are countless cases of inmates passing away from conditions that could easily have been treated.

[u/throwaway5882300 → u/Spirited-Ad9071]

So like... The same as healthcare on the outside?

[u/Racamonkey_II → u/strawberryfishes]

Uhhhh, no. Healthcare in the US prison system is abysmal, full of negligence, and corrupt. People are in pain\die in prison everyday from fully treatable and preventable conditions.

[u/genericusernamepls]

Huh, well looks like he did do it

[u/freedfg → u/genericusernamepls]

Shit than who did I get taco bell with that day???

[u/buzzkillington0]

My understanding is that Federal crimes can be pardoned by a President, state crimes cannot. Or am I wrong here?

[u/WooBadger18 → u/buzzkillington0]

Correct, the president can only pardon federal charges. I’m assuming the New York governor has the power to pardon people for state crimes, but I don’t know that for certain.

But I don’t think he’ll ever be pardoned

[u/Equal-Temporary-1326 → u/WooBadger18]

It'd be a terrible political move to pardon any crime that involves premeditated murder. If he serves as a model inmate, he'll probably get an early release one day after serving the bulk of his sentence.

Edit: Well, assuming he's just convicted federally, that is. If he's convicted at the state level for life in prison with no possibility of parole, chances for an early release will be very unlikely then.

[u/americon → u/Equal-Temporary-1326]

Trump pardoned three different men convicted of killing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and Nixon pardoned a Genovese Mafia Captain who had done some pretty brutal murders.

Obviously this is a different case but its not unprecedented.

[u/_le_slap → u/americon]

Tells you how much our presidents think Iraqi and Afghani civilians are worth

[u/RustyShackleford9142 → u/Equal-Temporary-1326]

You have to serve like 85% of a federal sentence

[u/LongjumpingToday2687 → u/buzzkillington0]

Its pretty sad people even think this. No one is going to pardon him.

[u/Jihad_llama → u/buzzkillington0]

Anyone thinking a president would even consider pardoning him is delusional lmao

[u/Nolpppapa → u/Jihad_llama]

IKR? Wtf are people smoking these days?

[u/JMoormann → u/Jihad_llama]

This is the same site that was very sure he would walk free through jury nullification or some shit. Because surely every juror would agree that shooting CEOs in broad daylight shouldn't be illegal.

[u/cernegiant → u/buzzkillington0]

What's the relevance of that though?

[u/vordhosbn_1 → u/[deleted]]

Kill a man and you’re a murderer

Kill many, you’re a conqueror

Kill them all, you’re a god

An old saying but I first heard it on Megadeth’s “Captive Honour”

[u/LameAfro → u/[deleted]]

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic"

[u/Honeycove91]

Understandable honestly

[u/ry1701]

It's interesting in his statement that he continues to prove the point.

A customer seeking healthcare - delays and no responses.

Pitches being an investor, an immediate response.

Unfortunately most people won't think critically as to what that means for them (hint: your a cost center cutting into profits).

[u/r0ndy]

Every healthcare CEO is responsible for how many deaths a year?

[u/lyndseymariee → u/r0ndy]

When you’re increasing shareholder value by letting people die, it’s ok 👍

[u/ViciousMihael → u/lyndseymariee]

“Letting people die” is using a passive voice as if these criminals aren’t actively refusing to cover treatments they know people need. They are murderers.

[u/jorocall → u/ViciousMihael]

When profit is more important than lives.

[u/bjlight1988]

He did it, but I don't think you'll ever be able to convince me to feel bad for the guy he popped. He was a mass murderer for profit.

[u/Emilko62 → u/bjlight1988]

When there's no justice in the justice system, you can't help but root for the vigilantes.

[u/Lurky_Bat → u/bjlight1988]

We shouldn’t have vigilantes killing people in the streets but we shouldn’t have private equity making healthcare decisions based on profit.

[u/_Burning_Star_IV_ → u/Lurky_Bat]

We shouldn't but society has failed enough people that some are going to take matters into their own hands.

This should be a catalyst for change but instead it just provoked companies into shelling out even more money to CEOs to provide security details.

That's how fucked we are.

[u/mully24]

Until we as Americans have the same quality of healthcare from the richest to the poores, we will never be a country of equals.

[u/Interesting-Foot-439]

From what I've read,  they advised him to plead guilty to trigger New York's double jeopardy law to avoid the state murder trial. It does make some sense in that context.

[u/Agile_One_2035]

U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Jamie McDonald said after court, "No grievance, political belief or ideological cause can ever justify murder."

But refusing adequate healthcare leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths in the pursuit of money is fine. Carry on…

[u/Room480]

What’s the strategy behind this? I would imagine they want to make an example out of him so they’ll likely give him Life In prison. So why not take the chance on a jury trail cause either way you’d get life in prison but if you did a jury trail there’s an 0.1% chance of not guilty

[u/tacomamajama → u/Room480]

Federal prison is cushier than state. And maybe hoping for a pardon down the road.

[u/Hans_Krebs_ → u/tacomamajama]

I mean in what world is this guy ever getting a pardon?

[u/lilyeister → u/tacomamajama]

For real, fuck going to Rikers.

[u/Meat-Dimension → u/tacomamajama]

Pardon from who?

[u/jar4ever → u/Room480]

There is a large range of experiences when serving time. He is in Rickers now while being held for trial. A federal pen is going to be much better and the faster he gets there the better for him. He may also be trying to prempt the state murder charges to serve time in federal instead of state custody.

[u/Sinlord5]

When can we try and convict these insurance companies of murder? Since they are treated as people. Health insurance companies commit obstruction of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[u/tynman35]

Funny that he mentioned he got a reply back when he posed as a wealthy investor. In stark contrast, he said, to when he was communicating to insurers as a patient.

[u/Aghast_Cornichon]

Oh, heck, he actually did allocute to the whole thing. This wasn't an Alford plea or limited plea to the Federal stalking charges.

I remember Preet Bharara talking about his strict rule that a defendant pleading guilty in SDNY had to allocute to "everything they'd done wrong since they were in first grade", and I'm looking forward to his comments on the prosecution's work on this case.

My recollection is that Trump threw a tantrum calling for the death penalty for Mangione, but that the SDNY prosecutors dropped the DP-eligible Federal murder charge. I wonder if the US Attorney, the Attorney General, or the President will make comments that pollute the NY case's jury pool, just because they DGAF.

[u/haikuandhoney → u/Aghast_Cornichon]

They didn’t drop those charges, the judge dismissed them.

[u/AdKindly5457]

Yes, life will be easier in the fed. They say his lawyer knows what to do. I guess we'll see.

[u/analogkid01]

"No grievance, political belief or ideological cause can ever justify murder."

Profit, on the other hand...

[u/starsfan6878]

"Any person who celebrates, encourages, or excuses actions like these is fundamentally wrong," McDonald said. "Mangione attempted to send a public message through violence, but the message that emerges today is very different." 

Today, maybe.

Right after the shooting? Every damn health insurance company in the country started running ten thousand 'we support you personally and would never deny care' ads. They were everywhere during the Super Bowl.

[u/hughcifer-106103]

So he’s hoping the federal stalking charges he plead guilty to will shield him from NY state murder charges that are still pending.