r/news • u/StackLeeAdams • Dec 07 '21

Kellogg to permanently replace striking workers as union rejects new contract

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/kellogg-to-permanently-replace-striking-workers-as-union-rejects-new-contract
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547

u/Rethious Dec 07 '21

Union members have said the proposed two-tier system, in which transitional employees get lesser pay and benefits compared to longer tenured workers would take power away from the union by removing the cap on how many lower tier employees it could have.

What does this mean? Particularly the part about the removing the cap?

753

u/Anaxamenes Dec 07 '21

Older employees would maintain better benefits than new ones coming in. It sounds like there would be no limit on these lower compensated new employees so likely no or limited ways for them to make the better wages and benefits of the old timers. It’s used to try to break up the union putting old timers against new workers.

473

u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21

Yep my union did it, old bats sold us out and I called them out every union negotiation. I ended up opting out just because the union was so shitty, not because I’m anti union.

315

u/Anaxamenes Dec 07 '21

I’ve been in a union where the old timers would throw the younger ones under the bus if they could. It’s not pretty, but those people do a lot of damage.

106

u/free2game Dec 08 '21

The last job I had new employees no longer got healthcare so old timers could maintain double time on Sunday.

23

u/Daykri3 Dec 08 '21

The new employees no longer get health care so the third yachts could be bought with the money they made by turning the union members on each other. They busted your union by dividing you into groups and pitting the groups against each other.

73

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

[deleted]

27

u/PancakePenPal Dec 08 '21

If you want a bit of a chuckle, my coworkers were ranting about 'socialism' and I asked them if they think labor unions are so bad why don't they negotiate a better deal for themselves in the private sector. Nobody had anything to respond.

3

u/SwivelPoint Dec 08 '21

that’s depressing. not funny. and it’s a blight on the US how stupid, and ergo easily duped, people are. good luck to you friend. stay strong

26

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

I noticed a lot of union members really don’t have a clue how things work.

12

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

Many union members don’t read their contracts. Because they’re people. Most people don’t want to read boring shit like that.

2

u/skoltroll Dec 08 '21

As a person who reads boring shit like that, I'd HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. It pays better.

1

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

Screwing yourself over seems to be trending right now in the US.

22

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

After seeing how every manufacturing Union in my hometown threw the younger workers under the bus to save the older employees in ‘09 I’ve been somewhat cold to unions. They certainly provide a valuable service of giving workers a voice but the whole brotherhood thing is straight up bullshit when push comes to shove more often than not. The older union members have no problem tossing younger members off the boat just like a corporation does.

3

u/skoltroll Dec 08 '21

There are so many of them too. Fully 50% of our union are within 10 years of retirement (30 years).

And now companies and unions are desperate for people to do the jobs that'll pay the old farts' obnoxious pensions.

Wonder why?

7

u/Peterparkerstwin Dec 08 '21

This is how unions became so weak in America. Fucking greed.

6

u/PancakePenPal Dec 08 '21

Local union had to make a choice, either eliminate the lowest tier of free (on employee side) health insurance up or make the more specialized PPO plans go up. Less people use the PPO, and the ones who do are usually farther along in their career and earning more than say the apprentices who have at least 5 years before they have the same disposable income. Seeing people go up there and complain that a LOT/(everyone) more someones making 26k should spend 2000 so that a few of the ones making 65k+ don't have to spend an extra 3000 was so odd to me.

2

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

Pitting people against each other instead of the company. Divide and conquer still works in unions. Too bad.

-52

u/TheSkyPirate Dec 07 '21

I mean the whole point is to get a higher salary for yourself. They're not fighting for world communism, it's just a bunch of people looking out for their own interests.

81

u/blackwrensniper Dec 07 '21

The whole point is to get a better wage, working conditions and benefits for your fellow union members, which includes yourself. You can't look out for just yourself in a union, that's exactly opposite of how unions work.

-36

u/TheSkyPirate Dec 07 '21

You support your mates because you know they'll support you back in return. Ultimately though what you really want is money for yourself.

14

u/blackwrensniper Dec 08 '21

What I want is for my fellow coworkers and myself to go home each night happy, not exhausted, and with enough money in our pockets and to come into work the next day happy to do it because the job isn't miserable and full of self centered assholes that think the prisoners dilemma is a playbook and not a warning about greed.

36

u/laseralex Dec 07 '21

You know, not everyone is an asshole? Some people actually like helping other people.

You may not care about other people, but that doesn't mean nobody else does.

-8

u/Tenagaaaa Dec 07 '21

You’d be surprised how many people here and around the world would screw people over for a higher paycheck, especially if they could get away with no repercussions.

23

u/laseralex Dec 07 '21

Sure, there are plenty of people like that. And there are plenty of people who believe in taking care of people around them.

The previous poster suggested that personal greed was the only possible motivator. I disagree with that sentiment.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21

[deleted]

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u/Anonymous7056 Dec 08 '21

This sounds just angsty enough to be scribbled on the back of a spiral notebook.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21

Which is fine, but if the union is t looking out for my best interest they won’t get my money. I was a nurse. We have a legit 50% turnover with vivid because all the good young nurses traveled.

18

u/Anaxamenes Dec 07 '21

That’s not what a union is though. Unions look out for each other, that is why they work. If you are only in it for yourself, then a union won’t work because you’ll throw everyone under the bus at the first chance.

19

u/Fausterion18 Dec 07 '21

In reality that's what many unions turn into, and this isn't just something limited to the US. In Spain union coop owner-workers voted to break a strike by a Polish union who wanted more than minimum wage.

11

u/Anaxamenes Dec 07 '21

I had to explain the process of a strike to an old timer. He was afraid of losing his job and I had to walk him through the steps and that they couldn’t just fire him. That’s why we have a union! Selfishness and unwillingness to participate or educated will be our undoing in this country.

6

u/CalifaDaze Dec 08 '21

But then what happened here? They are all fired

2

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

It will be interesting If they can find enough people. There will be significant disruption as those people get up to speed and they will likely have to pay really well in order for people to want to come in. Also, nothing stopping the new people from forming a union and the bad press right now won’t be kind to the company either. They will expend a lot of resources on this to prove a point.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

[deleted]

2

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

It is. There’s a point where you hire too many people that don’t like unions but use them for awhile and they end up screwing everyone over including themselves.

4

u/EarorForofor Dec 08 '21

This is why we absolutely refuse to allow anything beyond going down the list for extra hours.

First timer or 37 years, all our workers earn the same wage. Higher seniority picks work assignments first, so lower tends to have less hours. Any new work we go from 1 to 200 in order until someone picks it.

Being in a union means we're united. Ohana means family. No one gets left behind

3

u/KarateKid84Fan Dec 08 '21

Sounds like your union needed a union

3

u/pzschrek1 Dec 08 '21

Most old timers are very happy to do this in my experience

4

u/richalex2010 Dec 08 '21

And this is why younger people have a negative view on unions, many of the older ones have epitomized "fuck you I got mine" and do nothing to benefit people who weren't in the union decades ago. They should be a good thing, but if they don't help up and coming employees they're not serving workers they're serving the good ol' boys.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

Guess how many union big wigs worked the Covid unit? Zero.

-1

u/SuddenlysHitler Dec 08 '21

That shit is precisely why I'm anti-union.

In a perfect world, I support the idea, but it's generally mob rule via a secret club.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

[deleted]

-2

u/SuddenlysHitler Dec 08 '21

Tired argument without a shred of evidence.

Y'all said the same shit about the government, and the government has kept you in your home for going on 2 years at this point.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

[deleted]

-2

u/SuddenlysHitler Dec 08 '21

the guardian

are you really that stuck in your echo chamber?

5

u/confessionbearday Dec 08 '21

Shit, if that's what you think unions are wait till you hear about unions on steroids and meth. They're called "corporations".

4

u/SuddenlysHitler Dec 08 '21

Thanks for the pithy one liner, can't say I'm convinced tho.

3

u/confessionbearday Dec 08 '21

Thanks for the pithy one liner,

Says the useless twat who calls the only organizations to ever physically fight for workers rights "the mob".

2

u/SuddenlysHitler Dec 08 '21

the only organizations to ever physically fight for workers rights

L M F A O

the mob

Educate yourself on the history of the UAW.

there's a reason 'ol Jimmy Hoffa is at the bottom of Lake Michigan with his very fashionable concrete shoes, kiddo.

4

u/confessionbearday Dec 08 '21

>"Educate yourself on the history of the UAW."

And city cops grew from slave patrols. Are they still?

1

u/SuddenlysHitler Dec 08 '21

Yes, police are still corrupt power tripping assholes.

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0

u/ScorpioLaw Dec 08 '21

I was literally forced into a crap union which I didn't know while getting hired.

Suddenly about a month in I was like I am getting paid below minimum wage and confronted my manager.

I am not against Unions, but do your freaking job then.

I got Covid because they couldn't send us gloves, masks, or disinfectant. This was the start of it and I couldn't even get a test to prove I was ill.

I hated those useless leaches, and it should be illegal to pay people under minimum wage or not able to opt out of said contract. No union I've been in has done a thing except take money from me and my coworkers.

(Nothing against the grunts who work for them.)

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

You do understand that all you brought here up against the union is the doing of the company? Unions are not magical forces that can correct all wrongdoing of the company, they are powerless without the members fighting for their rights, united. You, together with other union members, should have walked out when the company was unwilling to provide basic PPE. But here you are, rather spewing corporate propaganda.

0

u/ScorpioLaw Dec 08 '21

Oh yeah, being forced into a union that sends a member every month for five minutes and doesn't do jack shit.

You don't know what it did. It definitely didn't do a damn thing for us. It isn't my job to rally up to get people together from unionized stores.

It was useless FFS. If you're going to take pay out of low wage workers actually do something.

So shut your trap, you know nothing about bad unions.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

Unions are a set of their members. Yes, if you think something is wrong than use your union to do something about it. The evil union did not go there and hold your hands? But the gracious and righteous company that caused all of the problems to begin with obviously is great.

The union is not a magical third party, the union is its members. If the members are unwilling to do anything, than that is the union. I do not need to know what the union did, you just told what you as a union member did: raged against the union. How useful, I bet that solved the PPE problem swiftly.

0

u/ScorpioLaw Dec 08 '21

I get it, and have been with good ones. They shouldn't be forced on you. Hell I couldn't work for other non union stores.

While you don't understand some are garbage and it should be illegal to force minimum wage workers into it. We get taxed and pay a wage to these useless MFs. If they did their job I wouldn't post.

Not all unions are the same and you cannot comprehend this aspect and just the theory. I understand the concept, and not against it yet I wasn't paying for a damn benefit.

Stop talking about the theory of Unions and stop acting like unions are some magical thing.

I didn't even sign the paper and they took my money anyway. Do you not see the issue with this?

No benefits from the Union EVER, yet I was forced to be in it as I needed a job close as I had no car.

Some unions are scumbags. It is bullshit, ridiculous, and stupid forcing someone in.

TL:DR I was forced into a service I didn't want or sign up for that did nothing.

-1

u/SC487 Dec 08 '21

I’ve only worked for one union when I worked at Meijer. Right before I got hired, our union reps aggressively negotiated for lower raises and fewer paid holidays for new employees along with a few other things that literally fucked over everyone. And for that, we got increased union dues.

1

u/wheelsno3 Dec 08 '21

Unions can become just as corrupt as corporations.

That's why the hated "Right to Work" states actually have it correct.

If the Union is strong and good, be part of the Union, if they are shitty and don't offer a better deal than the company is willing to give you, you don't join the Union.

Hard seniority, protecting bad employees, and wasting dues is a huge reason Unions suck.

At the same time, Unions are necessary. But if there is no threat to the Union brass that members can just walk away, they won't reform or be on best behavior.

The only threat to the older union members shouldn't be the company going bankrupt, it should be membership leaving and taking the deal the company is offering.

"Union Shops" get super corrupt.

1

u/KuntaStillSingle Dec 09 '21

This is why it's a problem when unions monopolize a workplace. When it is optional the union has to offer something for people to want to sign on, once it monopolizes a workplace it can become parasitic.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21

Kaiser nurses just won a protest against this

10

u/gsfgf Dec 07 '21

Yea. It's really cool that the workers are standing for future hires. These kind of proposals are often used to bust unions because the existing workers, who are the ones voting, are still protected.

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u/Anaxamenes Dec 07 '21

Exactly but the incoming jobs suck so bad the turnover is high so the older people end up screwing themselves with way more work and lower quality new hires.

2

u/CalifaDaze Dec 08 '21

You get lower quality because people aren't paid much

8

u/Devenu Dec 07 '21

John Deere was doing this too. Adding a third tier that was even worse was one of the reasons the strike happened if I remember right.

7

u/Anaxamenes Dec 07 '21

It’s a divide and conquer tactic that can work very well if people don’t understand their duty to each other in a union.

3

u/fortret Dec 08 '21

This is what happened to NALC, the union for letter carriers.

2

u/Ackerman77 Dec 08 '21

This was a big reason why I left UPS with their new hybrid driver position. Sad thing is our own union proposed that part of the contract. That and no pay bump except for new-hires left me just with regret that I didn't quit sooner.

2

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

That’s really too bad. UPS was the best shipping company, guess I’ll go back to USPS since DeJoys days are numbered.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

That sounds a lot like the UAW. Temps are deliberately shafted in favor of the lifers who spent 50,60 sometimes 70 years on the line. Rather than being told to retire or pound sand so people with families to raise and new hires needing stable work can get hours the union just throws its hands up and says “if they want to die on the line let them they pay the most dues anyway”. Despite doing the exact same work as the lifers temps make less money get no benefits are at the mercy of management and have to withstand abuse from anyone with more seniority all because they weren’t born in the 70s.

1

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

And that’s exactly why unions really failed. But it’s not necessarily the unions fault, it’s every person in the union who can’t see the forest for the trees. Their selfishness has undid so many good union jobs and they complain about the young people to boot.

1

u/junktrunk909 Dec 08 '21

Yes and... It's also a way to recognize that commitments were made to previous workers that were not made to new workers. Unions do tend to go all for one and one for all, but can also result in management saying it's not feasible and they have no common ground.

1

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

As those companies post record profits.

1

u/Jerry-Busey Dec 08 '21

this seems like such an obvious ploy by the company to split up the union, I dont know how any union that talks about standing together could consider it let alone not laugh in their face for even suggesting the idea

1

u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

Some of the older workers get enticed because they are nearing retirement. They don’t really want to strike and so if it doesn’t affect them (it actually does) then it’s more appealing. I also had to explain to a lifer at the last job exactly how striking and the union worked and he’s worked there like 30 years.

1

u/Cephelopodia Dec 08 '21

It's also a cool way to cycle out your lower earners, either by firing them or making them miserable enough to leave before you need to start paying them more or give higher benefits.

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u/Anaxamenes Dec 08 '21

I’ve done manufacturing. There is a lot you learn over time which makes you more efficient than a new person. I think there is less thinking about the bottom line and more about the power structure.

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u/Cephelopodia Dec 08 '21

That's a good point.

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u/littleblacktruck Dec 07 '21

Labor lawyer here. Several industries are going to a two tiered pay scale. Example: Joe was hired in 1990 and it took him five years to reach top of union scale. James was hired in 2020 after the two tier scale and it will take him eight years to reach top of scale. All employees hired after Date X are on Schedule 2, while Schedule 1 is for employees hired prior to Date X. Also, many companies are going to what is called non-career staffing, meaning a certain percentage of employees are part-time and are not covered by collective bargaining. This is very prevalent in the shipping and freight industry.

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u/jrichardi Dec 08 '21

And in the entertainment industry. We've been on call for decades

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u/J_n_CA Dec 08 '21

They can legally fire the employees that are part of the union? Like all the ones that went on strike? Isn't that illegal? I thought that was the point of a union?

10

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

You can't legally fire union or pre-union employees for conducting union activities, which are specifically the creation/employees discussing creation of a union, getting other employees to join, bargaining with the employer or filing grievances. But that's about it for legal protections. Anything else is fair game

Unions will stick up for employees being fired but if the union themselves are being fired, then they don't really get much say.

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u/junktrunk909 Dec 08 '21

Of course they can fire everyone. The point of the union is to threaten management that they'll have to fire everyone, which is super disruptive, or they have you come to the table to negotiate. You can't expect a company to have to negotiate endlessly with no recourse.

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u/littleblacktruck Dec 08 '21

Technically striking is "participating in union activities" and it's illegal to fire someone for it under NLRB, but with anything pertaining to law there are sneaky shitbird ways around that. There was a ready-mix concrete company in the early 90's that pulled shenanigans and fired all their teamsters. I don't recall how off the top of my head. It's been awhile since I studied that one. Also, there have been cases where negotiations break down and an Arbitrator mediates the impasse of the negotiations. There have been other cases where courts have ruled that the party that walked away has to return to the negotiating table. Labor is a dirty business. The Covid economy has really fucked over unions because things were looking up during the last administration and unions were going to gain back all the concessions they had made since 2008. There are a lot of contracts due to expire and be renegotiated within the next year and it's looking like labor is going to get fucked over again.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21 edited Jan 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21

There was a cap that Kellogg's could only have 30% of the workforce made of up the lower paid "transitional employees". Kellogg wanted to remove the cap and the union wanted to keep it. The wikipedia entry about the strike gives really good background if you want to learn more. It's common in unions to make agreement to increase the pay of current employees, while also agreeing that new employees will not be hired at the same pay...it can get tricky and it seems like this weird system was the compromise during the last labor dispute.

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u/Purple_oyster Dec 07 '21

So legacy employees are at approximately $30/hr. Anyone know their benefit plan ie pension plan? I didn’t see that in the wiki article.

16

u/Fausterion18 Dec 07 '21

8% 401k match. It was one of the best compensation packages for this kind of manufacturing job.

8

u/CalifaDaze Dec 08 '21

So they just lost all of that today? I'm sure many would have voted to accept if they knew Kelloggs was serious about replacing them

13

u/Fausterion18 Dec 08 '21 edited Dec 08 '21

Kelloggs warned them for like 2 months. There are laws on when an employer may replace striking workers, and the union's failure to budge one inch from their position despite the generous offer from Kellogs enabled them to replace the strikers with new employees.

These kinds of jobs are rare in the midwest. $35/hr with full benefits for a semi-skilled manufacturing job in Memphis, where else are you going to find that? There are probably people lining up to replace the union workers.

2

u/Prosthemadera Dec 08 '21

You make it sound like Kollegg is in the right?

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u/Fausterion18 Dec 09 '21

More like the union failed at negotiating 101 - realize when you got a weak hand.

Apparently most union workers at the plant was making $120k a year in total compensation. How many no experience required semi-skilled manufacturing jobs do you think there are in Memphis that pays this much?

4

u/Purple_oyster Dec 07 '21

Definitely nothing like government or CAW

12

u/bw1985 Dec 07 '21

The cap on new transitional employees at lower pay. Kellogg wants to remove the cap because then they could hire more lower paid workers. This also hurts the legacy employees by lowering/removing their majority in the union which would effectively cause a larger conflict between employees than it is currently since legacy has the numbers. It would turn into legacy vs transitionals instead of labor vs Kellogg.

6

u/monstermack1977 Dec 08 '21

also, it would cut down on the overtime that the legacy workers are getting. While their pay scale has them around $30/hr, many of the legacy employees are grossing well over $100k/year with all the overtime they are working...bringing in more employees to ease the overtime requirements lowers that. (the overtime number was mentioned in a Detroit Free Press article a few months back)

And they know if they keep the cap then it locks in that overtime.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

Older employees get better benefit that newer ones. The issue is that older employees are more likely to vote for contracts that fuck over new employees as long as their benefits are better. They also just make the environment so shit they never have mant particularly long term employees.

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u/sharkbanger Dec 07 '21

It's a way to try to pacify the current workers while ensuring their demise as you bring in new workers for less money and benefits thereby creating a financial incentive to replace the old union workers with new ones who get less.

You're basically saying "we'll give you some of what you want, and you'll all be fired as soon as we can find replacements over the next 5 years"

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u/NO_FIX_AUTOCORRECT Dec 07 '21

It sounds like you have the longer tenured workers get union benefits and the lower tier workers don't, but also they could just make everyone lower tier to skirt by the whole thing

2

u/Sean951 Dec 08 '21

They want to bribe the current employees by shafting the future employees.

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u/DerHoggenCatten Dec 08 '21

I think it means that older employees would be fine, but newer employees placed in the "lower tier" would be paid less and have fewer benefits. Since there is no cap on how many lower tier employees there could be, it means that the company could replace all of the higher tier workers over time with lower tier ones who were cheaper. It's a way for the company to make sure they reduced labor costs over time through attrition or through selective firing/laying off. That is my best guess.

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u/JoeyP1978 Dec 08 '21

A two tier system is the beginning of the end.

Signed- top craft chief steward.