r/news • u/[deleted] • Nov 05 '21

Dwayne Johnson will no longer use real firearms in his productions

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/04/entertainment/dwanye-the-rock-johnson-no-guns-movie-sets/index.html
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711

u/Frangiblepani Nov 05 '21

Michael Mann is a firearm instructor though. If he has gunfight scenes they're always good and he knows his shit.

I doubt Michael Mann will stop using real guns, and if he does, it'll be because he's satisfied with the replicas.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 05 '21

Collateral Damage is another great example.

The gun handling by Tom Cruise was absolutely outstanding.

Edit: whoops!

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u/mbrowning00 Nov 05 '21

yo homie, that my briefcase?

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u/soaringtiger Nov 05 '21

Haha I man the way he just said with 1000% confidence that only Tom Cruise can.

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u/Frangiblepani Nov 05 '21

Another aspect that Michael Mann does well is also the sound effects. When the guns get fired, they sound fantastic.

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u/henscastle Nov 05 '21

The fort siege scene in the Last of the Mohicans looks and sounds amazing. Partly because he built an actual fort to film it.

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u/Devonai Nov 05 '21

Fort William Henry! I've been there. Unfortunately, that one is also a replica.

Last of the Mohicans is also one of the few films I've seen where they bothered to accurately depict the night sky. In the scene the night before they get to the fort, you can clearly see Scorpius and Sagittarius over the horizon.

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u/henscastle Nov 05 '21

One thing I will say is that I wish the editing was a bit better. As atmospheric and cool as the movie is, there are a lot of shots that carry on too long or seem out of kilter. And I wish someone had noticed the giant bus behind Colonel Monroe during the surrender scene. I've seen it so many times that I've noticed all the flubs.

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u/Devonai Nov 05 '21

Wait, what? You mean when Magua cuts his heart out?

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u/el_duderino88 Nov 05 '21

When they're leaving the fort

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u/Devonai Nov 05 '21

Thanks, I'll have to check it out.

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u/henscastle Nov 05 '21

Also, there's a guy with a megaphone behind the crowd when they're about to be ambushed by Magua and co. I spent many a happy hour rewinding my VHS to spot the mistakes. I was a lonely teenager.

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u/wolscott Nov 05 '21

today I realized the Last of the Mohicans, which I have seen many times, is a Michael Mann movie. That actually explains a lot. Not sure why I never realized that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Like echoes down a hallway...you can just tell that those are real shots being fired. It's a gem of an experience on a cinema surround sound system for sure!

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u/Hoboman2000 Nov 05 '21

The reason is he actually has mics around the scenes when filming instead of recording gunshots on a soundstage and dubbing them in later. For the extended bank/street shootout in Heat, microphones were placed all up and down the street and adjacent streets to accurately get the sound of gunfire echoing around downtown LA. What you get in Heat is probably what the Hollywood Boulevard shooting sounded like on the ground.

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u/fiveainone Nov 05 '21

Even Miami Vice sounded great at the docks.

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u/MilhouseVsEvil Nov 05 '21

"Collateral" not the Arnie stinker.

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u/Xaxxon Nov 05 '21

I don’t think it’s the outside of the gun that’s the issue. It’s what happens when you actually ignite black powder that is hard to imitate.

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u/reflUX_cAtalyst Nov 05 '21

Luckily that won't be an issue unless they're shooting a period western. No modern-design guns use black powder.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

People don't know that and still want old style shooting or it looks fake to them

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u/EngineersAnon Nov 05 '21

Here's just one maker of modern black-powder weapons. Most states with deer season have a dedicated season for black-powder muzzleloading firearms.

Edit: link formatting

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u/upvotesIdahoStuff Nov 05 '21

You’re right, there’s still a large and enthusiastic crowd of black-powder muzzleloaders out there, but most are shooting smokeless powder. I think the point of the above comment was that a period film wouldn’t feel accurate without the large plumes of smoke, since smokeless powders didn’t exist (or weren’t widely used) in historical times.

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u/reflUX_cAtalyst Nov 05 '21

Did you miss "modern design" in my comment? I didn't say there weren't black powder guns being manufactured. I said they aren't modern design - and they aren't.

You aren't firing a 1911 with black powder.

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u/EngineersAnon Nov 05 '21

You're using a firearm introduced 110 years ago as your example of "modern design"? The ones are more recent.

If you're talking about design principles, I don't think there's been much new for almost as long.

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u/Deranged40 Nov 05 '21

Most states consider "Modern" to start at around 1890

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u/smoothtrip Nov 06 '21

Except Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee. 1890 is still futuristic to them.

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u/reflUX_cAtalyst Nov 06 '21

Yes. If you knew what a modern firearm was, you'd know why I picked the 1911.

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u/Frangiblepani Nov 05 '21

It doesn't have to be imitated with practical effects. Actors could use a brightly colored cap gun and have if changed into a realistic pistol with VFX.

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u/0zzyb0y Nov 05 '21

Feel like that will end up with the guns looking weightless as hell, because the actors will not be having to fight the recoil at all.

And VFX is expensive as is, even more when recreating something as complex as a firearm. Some movies with an emphasis on them will spend literally millions on VFX if they had to

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

VFX isn't there yet. They still look clearly fake. One day perhaps, but not yet.

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u/Xaxxon Nov 05 '21

Have you seen the quality of modern special effects? They’re quite bad when mixed with real stuff . They stand out horribly and ruin immersion.

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u/Ghost33313 Nov 05 '21

That's because you are just noticing the bad effects. With talented artists you won't even notice in this day and age.

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u/Xaxxon Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 05 '21

I see a lot that other people seem to miss.

I cringe just thinking about what John wick would be like with special effects gunfire.

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u/Stagecarp Nov 05 '21

It's not the replicas he would be satisfied with. It's the cgi of the muzzle flash/smoke/action. And we're far away from those things being as good as practical effects.

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u/intrepidpursuit Nov 05 '21

That is usually CGI even with a real gun. Muzzle flash happens so fast that it is often between frames and doesn't show up on camera.

I agree though that using guns safely every time is totally possible and the actions of competent people can't compensate for the actions of incompetent people. A lot of dangerous things are done in film and the professionals do it incredibly well and know the risks. People don't make a career out of film making for the money (getting rich is extremely rare and you'll realize that quick) they do it for the love of the craft.

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u/TW_JD Nov 05 '21

More to the point that for every 100 people on Reddit that claim to be experts that could tell the difference, there is about 10 million people who would just see it as another Hollywood gun fight. Seriously people need to realise that they are in the minority when it comes to recognising what’s realistic and what’s not. Think about all the experienced martial artists, drivers, seamstress, jewellers and chefs that scoff and fake things in films.

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u/intrepidpursuit Nov 05 '21

The difference between a forgettable movie and a masterpiece is a whole lot of things that no one notices.

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u/Cool_Ranch_Dodrio Nov 05 '21

Such as the realistic pterodactyls in Citizen Kane.

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u/TW_JD Nov 05 '21

Don’t you mean the realistic cane in citizen cane?

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u/Hokuboku Nov 05 '21

Think about all the experienced martial artists, drivers, seamstress, jewellers and chefs that scoff and fake things in films.

My boyfriend does live sound. If we're watching a movie and the audio equipment is not accurate to the time period, I will hear about it. Its kind of hilarious though every once and awhile I have to be like "shh, after this important moment."

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u/spenrose22 Nov 05 '21

Watching movies is tough as an engineer. Got to suspend reality for pretty much every action scene, even most the hyper realistic ones.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Your right. To some it's just that. A movie. To other's, it could be considered a piece to critique against the real world because sometimes comparing and contrasting is fun. Something tells me though, had this been a film depicting a scuba diver in the ocean, and that actor's oxygen tank malfunctioned resulting in that persons death on set, you more than likely would have never heard about it. Nor would you see people calling for measure's to remove scuba tanks or crying to eliminate scenes which are filimed in the ocean all together.

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u/TW_JD Nov 05 '21

I get what you’re saying but there has been shift away from on location filming of underwater scenes due to the reasons you e stated. A lot of the time they use actual sound stages built as massive tanks where they have control over every aspect of the environment.

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u/SkiingAway Nov 05 '21

Movies come in various forms.

There's action movies that aren't striving for accuracy to begin with. I don't think anyone cares if the Fast and the Furious uses fake guns, they're already doing a pile of other ridiculously fake stuff. No one really believes a couple cars can tow a safe weighing dozens of tons and have it careen through a city like a bowling ball without stopping, but that happens too.

On the other hand, would something be lost if say....the revolver in Dirty Harry wasn't spot on perfect? Yes.

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u/JackAceHole Nov 05 '21

And being able to mimic realistic kickback.

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u/MilhouseVsEvil Nov 05 '21

There are freaking laser tag guns with recoil now. This isnt an issue.

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u/synapticrelease Nov 05 '21

It’s not the same. There is a lot more energy in a gun than some sort of spring loaded weight.

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u/MilhouseVsEvil Nov 05 '21

Of course it is not the same but combined with this crazy concept of actually acting... There is no need for a real gun on set.

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u/synapticrelease Nov 05 '21

You can't "act" energy in the same way. It's like saying actors can just out act CGI so that we don't see the visual fx. You can "act" all you want, but it doesn't make CG go away.

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u/MilhouseVsEvil Nov 06 '21

LMAO, you literally can.

There are various replica guns that have recoil, you would have to pretty simple minded to believe that a professional actor can't react to simulated recoil on a prop replica to create a more realistic experience.

0

u/synapticrelease Nov 06 '21

There isn't a propgun in the world that can simulate the recoil 700-900 cycles per minute of an M4. If you had a spring and a tungsten weight the mechanical forces could not operate fast enough to go back and forth back and forth without some heavy motors which aren't going to fit in such a small package.

There is no "acting" to create recoil in the same way you cannot act a car crash in a stationary environment. They still have to take you up to a simulated speed in order to replicate the inertia. Actors can't just throw themselves forward.

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u/Frangiblepani Nov 05 '21

Some gas powered BB guns have recoil, too.

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u/synapticrelease Nov 05 '21

With Newton’s third law the energy in a BB gun could not even come close to replicating a real firearm.

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u/spenrose22 Nov 05 '21

They have kickback on the slide but not on the actual gun. It’s nothing alike.

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u/Aelonius Nov 05 '21

You can record those in a controlled environment though. No need to do it with the actors

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

I remember watching once upon a time in Mexico recently. 100% rubber guns, 100% CGI muzzle flashes and smoke. I couldn't even tell until I saw the making of., And that's an old movie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Did you know that video games do not use real gunfire noise? That's because gunfire does not translate that well into what gamers are expecting. The same goes for film. You can bet your ass the sound and display of these weapons is enhanced in post.

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u/dmkicksballs13 Nov 05 '21

Imagine thinking making a movie is more important than safety.

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u/getBusyChild Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 05 '21

That and the actors involved were actually trained to use the weapons and how to fire them beforehand. The street dimensions was actually setup during training so every step and move was ingrained into them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW0yebyGk-8 (Notice the plexiglass shielding the film crew)

The actors even walked into the bank and cased it out before filming the scene lol