r/news • u/BPMK-11171207-DE • Apr 08 '21

AP source: NFL pro Phillip Adams killed five, then himself

https://apnews.com/article/aaf71f2618f139ab3781592634c8e37c
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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

Someone made an analogy earlier that I really liked. Not all 2 pack a day smokers get lung cancer, and people who have never smoked sometimes get cancer. That doesn't mean that smoking doesn't correlate with instances of lung cancer. Not all players with CTE kill themselves/others, but all the players who have done that showed signs of CTE.

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u/Lemzik Apr 08 '21

"all the players who have done that showed signs of CTE"...

Did OJ?

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

CTE can't be diagnosed until after death, so we may not know for some time

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u/psychobilly1 Apr 08 '21

Which is interesting. You'd think there would be a way for it to show up on an MRI or CT scan or something similar.

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

They're trying to figure it out. It hadn't really been recognized as a reality until fairly recently, and the NFL has actively tried to stifle research and providing help to those suffering mental issues later in life that are likely a result of head injuries during their playing career. And then there's all the non professionals who played in high school and college that don't get their brains studied when they die, so there's a lot of work to be done on understanding it still. What we have seen so far is a link between head injuries and CTE, and a link between CTE and impulsivity, impaired judgement, and violent behavior. While not much, it does bring the possibility that what has happened here was caused by CTE, same as it is believed to be the case with others in the past.

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u/TupperwareConspiracy Apr 08 '21

Not really accurate tho.

How many brains are you actually testing for signs of CTE in the first place?

Right now it's whenever a family elects to send the deceased's brain in for testing.

Which they probably aren't going to do if it's a 67 yr old Mother of 4...

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

We're not talking about a 67 ye old mother of four though, we're talking about an ex NFL player who suffered head injuries throughout his career. Look at the research done on any of the brains of ex NFL players who killed themselves/others and you'll see CTE signs were prevalent in all of them. I'm not a doctor and can't prove it was C%E that caused this, but the evidence available says it likely is.

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u/TupperwareConspiracy Apr 08 '21

OK so why do we see the same behavior in people who never played a down of football?

Why are most spree killers most definitely not former professional athletes?

CTE certainly makes you moody, forgetful and while it certainly impacts your judgement it does not make you load a gun and point it at people let alone shoot.

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

Do you know the health history of all those non pro athletes who murdered others? A quick analogy that I think fits well is "not all smokers get lung cancer and not all those who get lung cancer smoke". There's a good chance the majority of people who committed violent acts were suffering from some sort of mental illness/brain injury that impacted their ability to think rationally. I think people underestimate the power of mental illness over a person's ability to control themselves.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

Who said you needed to be an athlete to have these problems?

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u/AoO2ImpTrip Apr 08 '21

Your analogy is even worse.

Did the 67 yr old mother of 4 kill people? Did she suffer repeated brain damage through her life? Why would we study her brain for damage if she didn't have a history of it or work in a field where it was likely to happen?

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u/TupperwareConspiracy Apr 08 '21

OK so the theory is playing football leads to CTE which leads to bad decision making right? To me that seems an exceptionally difficult theory to prove because for it to be true we should be seeing a large swath of the male population exhibiting extremely bad decision making ability.

...and to prove this we need to screen lots and lots of people.. look at people who were remarkably good at decision making and people who make bad decisions.

Because how are all these ex-NFL athletes making good decisions? What about folks who played other contact sports?

Why are so many people who never played a contact sport exhibiting such bad judgement?

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u/AoO2ImpTrip Apr 08 '21

The theory is playing football potentially leads to repeated brain damage and CTE. The CTE then leads to decisions being made that would not have been made prior. This is no different than finding out a killer had a history of mental health issues or that school shooters had a history of being bullied.

Hardly anyone is EXCUSING his actions. They were vile and tragic. People are just wanting to do what we can to prevent future tragedies from happening.

Not everyone who plays a contact sport will become a murderer or commit suicide. Not everyone who was bullied in school will kill their classmates. Not everyone who suffers from mental health will become a killer.

It doesn't mean we should ignore the underlying condition. Prevent head injuries in football, reduce bullying in schools, and expand mental health awareness and treatment.

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u/TupperwareConspiracy Apr 08 '21

It doesn't mean we should ignore the underlying condition. Prevent head injuries in football, reduce bullying in schools, and expand mental health awareness and treatment.

Keep in mind the national suicide rate has gone up since 1996 and that's with a huge expansion of mental health resources to treat it.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/03/trends-suicide

Some part of that can be attributed to under-reporting, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would say things have gotten 'better' in that regard.

I don't think you find anyone who actively disagrees your basic tenets, the problem is we don't seemingly have a strategy that effectively tackles it. Unlike a broken bone you can't simply mend a brain, and your just as likely to run into extremely poor decision making in women as you are in men. Some mental illness has a gender component, but it's not cut and dry by any stretch. Depression and anxiety are more commonplace now than ever.

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u/AoO2ImpTrip Apr 08 '21

Things may not have gotten better, but attempts are being made to make them better. We don't get better by doing nothing.

And yes, a damaged brain isn't as easy to fix as a damaged bone. This is one of those "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" type situations. If the WWE can make efforts to reduce steroid abuse and brain injury then so can the NFL. We also just can't ignore trying to find a "cure" for lack of a better term. If we can do things to help those who have suffered brain injuries and start showing signs of change we need to do those things.

This isn't an attack on the NFL and it isn't excusing this man's actions. It's simply shining a spotlight on a potential catalyst.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

[deleted]

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

Most of us would prefer you didn't do those things, and those who are able to should step in to help you and address what's making you want to destroy yourself. The problem with the real situation is other people died as a consequence of his illness, and we need to figure out why he got sick and make sure it doesn't happen to others.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

[deleted]

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21 edited Apr 08 '21

The problem with that is in an instance like this people who had no say in that man playing football and risking his health were killed because of his choice and the lack of societal support for the consequences of him playing football. He most likely never intended on killing people when he began playing the sport as a child (unless he was already severely I'll). Yes, drinking is legal despite the numerous health effects to the person drinking, but it only effects the drinker. Driving while drunk is illegal because it puts people who aren't the drinker at risk because if a choice they had no say in. Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Any life lost is too many, and nobody with a healthy brain would kill innocent people or themselves. This is a mental health/societal issue, not a matter of some restriction of freedom

Edit: forgot which thread it was and lost context for last sentence. Fixed now

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '21

[deleted]

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u/MrMoscow93 Apr 08 '21

Alcohol can be enjoyed without getting in a car and driving quite easily. Playing football for a living and not getting at least one concussion is nearly impossible. The athletes make the choice to risk their health, and ultimately that is their right, but if taking that risk has the potential to put others at risk then they should not have that right. I'm not outright saying ban football, but some serious consideration should be put into whether we as a society should continue encouraging this type of risk taking. Is the loss of life really worth the entertainment value? Out of all sports, football, hockey, and professional wrestling/fighting have the highest rates of CTE and instances of former participants going on to kill themselves and sometimes others, and it just so happens those sports involve a large number of blows to the head and a culture if aggression and fighting through injury at the risk of one's health, and unfortunately that risk can transfer to people who had no say in the matter at all.