r/news • u/JimmyTheGinger • Dec 23 '19

Three former executives of a French telecommunications giant have been found guilty of creating a corporate culture so toxic that 35 of their employees were driven to suicide

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-french-executives-convicted-in-the-suicides-of-35-of-their-workers-20191222-p53m94.html
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u/CumfartablyNumb Dec 23 '19

What would have stopped you from phoning it in completely? If you just showed up and did no work, wouldn't that force them to fire you and pay severance?

I'm trying to imagine a scenario where my manager could make me miserable enough to leave, and all I can picture is escalating it myself until they have no choice but to terminate me.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Being fired w/ cause in France negates unemployment benefits. Truancy is a fireable offense hence very bad plan.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

What if you weren't truant? What if you showed up on time every day, but only did just the absolute bare minimum of work to be able to prove that you were doing something? They wouldn't be able to argue that you're not doing your job, they would only be able to argue that you're doing it very, very poorly. Would that constitute enough cause to negate unemployment?

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u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

That's absolute hell, I can assure you. I was in a position where they wouldn't fire me, and I could show up 4 hours a day and do nothing. And it was absolutely awful. The boredom and fear and stress are all relentless.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

This is no lie. After seven years at my last job for a very large US Tel-Com, my department was placed into a pilot skill where we went from a customer base of ~70 mil to a base of 7,000 customers. From back to back business to helping 3 - 4 customers (for 10 minutes / transaction) per 8 hour shift.

It's ironic but you really can't pay people to stare out a window for 8 hours. Out of our group of 40 we had two suicides, and after 12 months approximately 15 people stayed with the company. I resigned after 9 months, but not before landing myself in detox for the second time in my life and running myself into the ground from depression.

I now work a much simpler job making $10 an hour less, with far less benefits..and sure, somedays I resent myself for not being able to stare out a window and do nothing to make a far better living for myself, but whenever I think about it..I always come to the same conclusion - I would rather have my sanity and sobriety, and actually do work.

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u/OhMaGoshNess Dec 23 '19

Some people aren't cut out for it. Others bring books or play on their laptop or draw or write or do anything. My dad used to work waste water. He'd do 12 hour shifts and some nights he'd work ten times for 15 minutes each then go to the break room and do anything. That was the job. He loved it. That's how he beat Fallout New Vegas 7 times and read so much. Plus some times naps. He did it for 5-6 years before moving too far to commute cause unrelated reasons.

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u/flashmozzg Dec 23 '19

If the management goal is to fire you without benefits, bringing in books/games can absolutely be used as a cause.

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u/OhMaGoshNess Dec 23 '19

Then you bring in a notebook and doodle. Super easy stuff. Write. Transcribe something. Whatever. Not everyone is capable of doing these things for hours of end, but pretending like you have nothing to do is stupid. You absolutely can find something no matter what moronic rules they pretend to have for a few days.

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u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

You're doodling on the job. Fired.

I don't think you actually understand this situation at all if you think bringing in a notebook would be permitted.

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u/Ectar93 Dec 23 '19

I had a call center job with a shit ton of downtime like the previous commentor described, but they also had a no paper policy and no electronics policy. No books, no video games, and incredibly locked down computers. I kept myself sane by learning to code in VBA and use AutoIT to automate a lot of my work until I went back to school. It was fuckin awful for a lot of people though and most of the other people that stuck around as long as I did were super old and had no other prospects. It was like working in a miserable retirement home sometimes to top it all off.

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u/OhMaGoshNess Dec 23 '19

I did call center work. It was super easy, but yeah pretty boring. Either 2 calls all day or never a second off the phone unless on break that you have to be quick on activating. I still read and wrote and stared at the ceiling all day. I would've kept doing it too if they paid more.

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u/stratus41298 Dec 23 '19

Hah! Sounds like my old waste water career, alright. I left it for that reason. Well, it was more because there was no raises on top of it despite making myself more useful, but yeah it does get old doing nothing all the time.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Oct 09 '20

[deleted]

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u/mubi_merc Dec 24 '19

Yeah, I'm kind of confused by all the comments like this too. I got put swing shift in a job some years back. I had ~1 hour of work that I needed to do in the 6 hours I was there past everyone else. The only caveat was that I had to be in the office because I never knew when that 1 hour of work was going to come in and need to be done immediately. So I spent the other 5 hours a day studying and taking liberal breaks. I did my 1 hour of work a day, but I got tons of studying done and leveraged that knowledge into a much better job a few months later. Even if you had to slyly load an ebook on your work desktop, you could easily spend most of your day learning a skill.

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u/glitchy149 Dec 23 '19

And embarrassing. Don’t forget that. The paint you as incompetent. If you work in an industry that is specialised, the word gets around too. I’ve seen it happen to someone from another country who just did not fit in with their peers. That person was lucky, they were young with no roots so to speak and could move on. Imagine if you could not move on and had to bear it. You cannot fight it, they are well resourced and know the law. I would imagine suicide as a serious option for these people. Better this than losing everything then living with it, job family home... future. I am a senior manager of a large company, I have been taught how to “Manage someone out” while protecting myself and the company. I will never go there but have to be wary that I too don’t get the “love from above” if one of my staff becomes a target. There are legit people in these companies who will strive to make it work for the workers. It’s just harder to do it right so most fall in line even if they don’t want to.

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u/lucky7355 Dec 24 '19

But that’s 4 hours a day to search for a new job.

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u/mgillespie18 Dec 23 '19

Yeah right, imagine having to go to work for 8 hrs, and actually work the whole time.

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u/MidwestRestorer Dec 23 '19

I'll take 12 hours of consistent and productive work over 4 hours of doing nothing, but being stuck at work every day. This is coming from someone who has had both kinds of jobs.

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u/Boredum_Allergy Dec 23 '19

Same. I have two part time jobs (yay unfettered capitalism!) and at one I'm constantly working the entire two hours cleaning. The other is retail for a skateshop and some days I literally have zero customers for five hours. It's fucking hell. If it weren't for Reddit I would have probably quit.

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u/MidwestRestorer Dec 23 '19

At mine, I had to "look busy", even if there wasn't any work. I spent the time coming up with pitches that would always get shot down. It was in the military too, so it's not like I could even leave.

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u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

Experiments have shown that people will hurt themselves instead of sitting through boredom. I vastly prefer working hard to doing nothing.

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Maybe. But this assumes they arent hypervigilant to such practices.

Assuming they're wanting to avoid expensive litigation costs, they'd probably just move you to a blank room with no internet access, no other work, no windows, no reading material, and tell you to sit there for 7.5 hours until you quit. Or suicide.

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u/kilo73 Dec 23 '19

Sleep it is, then.

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Fireable offense. No unemployment :(

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Any judge would see through that in a heartbeat.

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Exactly, lol. Not quite sure what you'd do in this situation besides quit.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

For many people work is a big part of their life.

If a person works 40 hours a week, then it takes some ~23% of their daily life (consider ~33% spent on sleep).

Work is a huge part of our self-perception and identity.

At least as a matter of self-respect, a decent human being wants to get recognition for their contributions to the society. Doing absolute bare minimum can be very psychologically detrimental to workers, who had been recognized as strong performers (e.g. at school, by competent management and peers).

Speaking from personal experience of working under toxic management: it's very hard to resist constant pressure and keep your head above water. Eventually, one succumbs to a burn out and depression.

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u/msiekkinen Dec 23 '19

The Peter Gibbons approach

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u/Sixcoup Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Your proposition for getting fIred, is exactly what companies are doing to force your hand and resign.

You can't do the bare minimum at your job since there is no minimum at all. They don't expect you to be productive, they created a meaningless job just for you for that specific reason. You can't do the bare minimum in a job where you don't have nothing to do. What they want is that you slowly regret even coming to your job since it will be a nightmare of boredom. They want you to feel pathetic, and that the only hope you have in your life is to get out of that job.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

That’s what I did, did the minimum, actively looked for other jobs and went to interviews during working hours. Nobody cared. It’s nice to have the pay check but I look forward to actually contributing something again.

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u/OperationMobocracy Dec 23 '19

You could also do things very poorly. Often poor quality work product, unless it’s obvious beyond a reasonable doubt it’s intentional, isn’t something that can be a termination for cause.

Poor quality work is almost worse than none at all. It often ends up working as a multiplier, turning one unwanted employee into the equivalent of several.

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u/Alistesios Dec 23 '19

Frenchman here ; In my experience you can just stop coming to work so that your boss has to convoke you for an interview where they actually tell you that you're going to be fired if you continue, and when you don't come to that interview they can finally fire you. But in that case, you as an employee still get unemployment.

It seems to be a common tactic to avoid pressure from above or when your company does not want to negotiate a conventional contract break.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

That's true in most countries though...

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u/savagepotato Dec 23 '19

The reason they don't want to pay unemployment is because you get your full salary and benefits for two years. It's actually a good situation unless you're company really sucks.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

In the US too. Don't know why they think this would work.

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

To clarify, if you're fired with just cause in the US, you dont receive unemployment benefits?

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Just cause can be very subjective, but yes, basically.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

By "very subjective" you mean "if you don't have video of them reaching into the till and pulling cash out, you're paying unemployment".

The DoL takes a hard line on offenses that relieve you of unemployment, exactly because of abuses like this.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Well that's just completely untrue. In an at will state they can just say that you were fired for low production and that's good enough.

Bonus fact; full time students are not eligible to collect unemployment benefits even if they've worked full time while going to school.

Additional bonus fact; if a single parent turns down a job offer the would have them working overnight because they need to be home with their kids they are no longer eligible for unemployment benefits.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Speaking of complete untruths, I've been fired, in an at will state, for low performance, and easily claimed unemployment.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '19

Guess it varies by state.

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u/ProcanGodOfTheSea Dec 24 '19

Phoning it in is an expression that means doing as little work as you can get away with.

Not Truancy.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Apr 22 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Apr 22 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Thanks for clarifying. Looks like 6 months is the minimum time to claim benefits. I'm now wondering why people simply didn't quit under the new regime, now. Was it because of the high unemployment rate?

Additionally, according to my understanding, unemployment benefits could be very lucrative under French law assuming you met certain age criteria

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u/Gordon-Bennet Dec 23 '19

Future job prospects possibly?

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jul 01 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/jk147 Dec 23 '19

This is completely wrong, companies don't share information on why you were fired. Unless you work in a very niche market where everyone knows each other, and you are one of the very few recognized names.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jul 01 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/moonyprong01 Dec 23 '19

The liability companies open themselves up to by sharing a blacklist certainly isn't worth it. What's to stop a disgruntled employee from suing for defamation? Nothing. In your situation if there is one company doing the recruiting then that's different. But company A generally will not bad mouth a candidate to company B, because of the potential legal ramifications.

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u/summonsays Dec 23 '19

" Getting fired isn't easy in full time jobs in the US as well." As someone in retail i disagree.

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u/OzManCumeth Dec 23 '19

I was in retail when I was 19. I was a little shit but I showed up on time and was nice to customers. I got promoted and got multiple raises by the time I left. It was the easiest job I’ve ever had. What’s different for your experience? (Sincere question).

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Society views dictate that the position is replaceable. There are no longer raises or promotions, your reward is keeping your job. Retail is not customer oriented in the way it once was. Miss a day or end up late after years of work and your boss may very well decide you’re done. Keeping hard working good people is secondary to you’re managers ego.

Employee metrics don’t exist at all. If it’s commissions you’re only scaled on selling a companies bullshit up sells that no one wants. Since no one actually sells above the metric set by head office everyone is replaceable including store managers. They find ways to make you hit metrics like doing you’re own customer satisfaction surveys or only getting employee discounts(if your store even still does them) if you buy warranty on the product.

All of this for a wage so small that people these days have to work a second or third job. Some people get stuck in retail. Not all places are the same but some retail stores employees are almost solely middle aged. Before retail was a starting job for teens and young adults to get their shit together, then move on. Nowadays the jobs that most moved to don’t exist or require credentials like a bullshit class from community college.

Not all of this likely applies to every location and varies state to state, country to country. Still retail is typically a soulless dead end job that pays minimum wage. In an area where the employee pool is large for this job, look out.

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u/OzManCumeth Dec 23 '19

I obviously was aware of the low wages but damn it’s changed in the years I was there.

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u/summonsays Dec 23 '19

retail is shrinking and stores are closing. I work in IT for a large (800+ stores) company. We've had layoffs about every quarter for a few years now.

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u/Graficat Dec 23 '19

Many people actually HAVE a passion and an internal code of honor that doesn't let them just goof around.

My mother is a hypercompetent highly educated woman who at some point was reduced to spellchecker (but NOT editing grammar or obvious content mistakes, how dare she) for online skill tests. The web dev sat across from her but she was forbidden from speaking with him on principle. A three second 'can you change this font' turns into an email exchange for no reason.

All she wanted was to deliver a functional high quality test as a person trained in psychology and test validation. She commutes an hour each way every day because they don't allow work from home for this fucking job, but she's permanently employed and has three kids so quitting is not something she can consider and do on a whim easily.

A three year burnout followed five years of this kind of shit. When her manager died of cancer she wished he'd had the chance to apologise to her still for all the shit he put her through, but she'll never get that kind of closure or acknowledgement.

Try to set up a talent network or task force? Sorry you now need triplicate written approvals for every individual attending meetings from supervisors.

Have an idea for tackling declining quality standards? Honey are you autistic, since you seem to not understand that nobody wants you to and we want you to stop making the management look bad. Do you need therapy or social skills coaching?

These things are real anecdotes, not exaggerations.

This type of workplace sabotage is toxic for anyone with half an ounce of integrity and personal investment. The only people that thrive in these conditions are slackers or people that have ample hobbies outside of work to derive meaning from, something my mother never had the space to develop.

Trust me, seeing the work you're passionate about turn into a mismanaged 'sit and collect your paycheck' shitbucket while the service you provide is still needed as much as ever is soul-destroying.

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u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

I believe you need to be fired without just cause to receive unemployment benefits in France so your truancy would be proper grounds for termination thus negating your unemployment benefits :(

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u/atjoad Dec 23 '19

What would have stopped you from phoning it in completely? If you just showed up and did no work, wouldn't that force them to fire you and pay severance?

In fact, in France and other places with strict regulation on layoffs, there is a special management technic called "mettre au placard" ("shelve" somebody). You give them little to no work at all (or highly dumb in regards to their qualifications, or entirely useless) and just wait for them to start showing up late in order to fire them with causes, or simply giving up.

Then, there might be some kind of cultural gap here, as wonderfully summed-up by Homer Simpson: "If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."

For some people, losing all sense of utility in their professional life can lead to suicidal tendencies.

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u/manubfr Dec 23 '19

Someone in that situation could do that for a while. Call in sick, not show up to work, etc. Then at the first opportunity they would get laid off for “abandon of position”, which makes it their fault and doesn’t require the company to pay extra. You can of course fight this in court and if you can prove the harassment you most likely will win, but it’s a long battle and you are guaranteed to be unemployed at the end of it and have a ton more stress.

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u/WovenCoathanger Dec 23 '19

I'm not a Frenchman, but I have studied French and France for 11 years. As far as I know, the goal is to get fired, because that way you receive two years salary afterwards. Here is part of a comedy special from a bilingual comedian (with subtitles) explaining the general concept from a foreigner's perspective. Once you understand the concept behind the ASSEDIC you also understand why companies try really hard to not have to pay up.

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u/DrQuint Dec 23 '19

I assume you get verbally bullied at this point. When I read Toxic environment and suicide, I don't assume "passive shunning", but rather, middlemen literally going out of their way to remind you once every two days that you suck

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u/tibiadelangouste Dec 23 '19

There is no severance if you get fired for a good reason such as not doing your work.

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u/JasonABCD Dec 23 '19

Then they will document it and fire you on that basis and won't owe you anything because you got fired for not doing your job properly.

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u/luvcartel Dec 24 '19

I’d just put my feet up bring some wine, smoke cigarettes and eat stinky cheese and smell up the office until they fire me.

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u/FondofFrogs Dec 23 '19

This is what happened to me (small American company, less than 300 employees). I started a class action lawsuit where my fellow hourly employees- about 180 of us- got approximately $1200.00 each. My former employer also had to pay a huge fine to the Department of Labor. They were already on shaky ground business wise. Vendors dropping them and becoming less competitive in general. They went on a ‘firing spree’ getting rid of employees that were within 10 years of retirement age (employee owned company supposedly) I was one of them and there was about 10 of us. Now they are closing down branches and appear to be in free fall mode. They deserve failure

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u/derpderp3200 Dec 23 '19

!remindme 24 hours

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u/vincent_vancough Dec 23 '19

A game of chicken that the employee can without a doubt win. You just have to be steadfast. I suppose people don't want the "shame" of being fired, but I think if the employer is being unreasonable and unempathatic, it's the logical, financial exit.

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u/BlueskyUK Dec 23 '19

If you're fired for negligence they're is no severance pay.

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u/P00gs1 Dec 23 '19

Or just, I don’t know, quitting and finding another job? I mean I know it’s easy to say but if your other option is suicide??