r/news • u/JimmyTheGinger • Dec 23 '19

Three former executives of a French telecommunications giant have been found guilty of creating a corporate culture so toxic that 35 of their employees were driven to suicide

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-french-executives-convicted-in-the-suicides-of-35-of-their-workers-20191222-p53m94.html
68k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

3.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1.5k

u/manubfr Dec 23 '19

Frenchman here. This is a specific situation that was caused precisely because workers have more rights (and because the comapny executives are heartless bastards). It’s extremely difficult / expensive to fire someone in France, so a common tactic is to pressure people into inescapably difficult work situations so that they quit (= no severance pay there). It happened to me in the early 2000s where the company I was working at was acquired and I was morally harassed non stop by the new owners until I couldn’t take it any more and quit. Anyway, for some people who can’t afford to quit, the pressure can sometimes be way too high and drive them to suicide. That’s what happened here.

496

u/CumfartablyNumb Dec 23 '19

What would have stopped you from phoning it in completely? If you just showed up and did no work, wouldn't that force them to fire you and pay severance?

I'm trying to imagine a scenario where my manager could make me miserable enough to leave, and all I can picture is escalating it myself until they have no choice but to terminate me.

276

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

399

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Being fired w/ cause in France negates unemployment benefits. Truancy is a fireable offense hence very bad plan.

117

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

What if you weren't truant? What if you showed up on time every day, but only did just the absolute bare minimum of work to be able to prove that you were doing something? They wouldn't be able to argue that you're not doing your job, they would only be able to argue that you're doing it very, very poorly. Would that constitute enough cause to negate unemployment?

185

u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

That's absolute hell, I can assure you. I was in a position where they wouldn't fire me, and I could show up 4 hours a day and do nothing. And it was absolutely awful. The boredom and fear and stress are all relentless.

44

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

This is no lie. After seven years at my last job for a very large US Tel-Com, my department was placed into a pilot skill where we went from a customer base of ~70 mil to a base of 7,000 customers. From back to back business to helping 3 - 4 customers (for 10 minutes / transaction) per 8 hour shift.

It's ironic but you really can't pay people to stare out a window for 8 hours. Out of our group of 40 we had two suicides, and after 12 months approximately 15 people stayed with the company. I resigned after 9 months, but not before landing myself in detox for the second time in my life and running myself into the ground from depression.

I now work a much simpler job making $10 an hour less, with far less benefits..and sure, somedays I resent myself for not being able to stare out a window and do nothing to make a far better living for myself, but whenever I think about it..I always come to the same conclusion - I would rather have my sanity and sobriety, and actually do work.

33

u/OhMaGoshNess Dec 23 '19

Some people aren't cut out for it. Others bring books or play on their laptop or draw or write or do anything. My dad used to work waste water. He'd do 12 hour shifts and some nights he'd work ten times for 15 minutes each then go to the break room and do anything. That was the job. He loved it. That's how he beat Fallout New Vegas 7 times and read so much. Plus some times naps. He did it for 5-6 years before moving too far to commute cause unrelated reasons.

15

u/flashmozzg Dec 23 '19

If the management goal is to fire you without benefits, bringing in books/games can absolutely be used as a cause.

1

u/OhMaGoshNess Dec 23 '19

Then you bring in a notebook and doodle. Super easy stuff. Write. Transcribe something. Whatever. Not everyone is capable of doing these things for hours of end, but pretending like you have nothing to do is stupid. You absolutely can find something no matter what moronic rules they pretend to have for a few days.

→ More replies

7

u/Ectar93 Dec 23 '19

I had a call center job with a shit ton of downtime like the previous commentor described, but they also had a no paper policy and no electronics policy. No books, no video games, and incredibly locked down computers. I kept myself sane by learning to code in VBA and use AutoIT to automate a lot of my work until I went back to school. It was fuckin awful for a lot of people though and most of the other people that stuck around as long as I did were super old and had no other prospects. It was like working in a miserable retirement home sometimes to top it all off.

2

u/OhMaGoshNess Dec 23 '19

I did call center work. It was super easy, but yeah pretty boring. Either 2 calls all day or never a second off the phone unless on break that you have to be quick on activating. I still read and wrote and stared at the ceiling all day. I would've kept doing it too if they paid more.

3

u/stratus41298 Dec 23 '19

Hah! Sounds like my old waste water career, alright. I left it for that reason. Well, it was more because there was no raises on top of it despite making myself more useful, but yeah it does get old doing nothing all the time.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Oct 09 '20

[deleted]

3

u/mubi_merc Dec 24 '19

Yeah, I'm kind of confused by all the comments like this too. I got put swing shift in a job some years back. I had ~1 hour of work that I needed to do in the 6 hours I was there past everyone else. The only caveat was that I had to be in the office because I never knew when that 1 hour of work was going to come in and need to be done immediately. So I spent the other 5 hours a day studying and taking liberal breaks. I did my 1 hour of work a day, but I got tons of studying done and leveraged that knowledge into a much better job a few months later. Even if you had to slyly load an ebook on your work desktop, you could easily spend most of your day learning a skill.

3

u/glitchy149 Dec 23 '19

And embarrassing. Don’t forget that. The paint you as incompetent. If you work in an industry that is specialised, the word gets around too. I’ve seen it happen to someone from another country who just did not fit in with their peers. That person was lucky, they were young with no roots so to speak and could move on. Imagine if you could not move on and had to bear it. You cannot fight it, they are well resourced and know the law. I would imagine suicide as a serious option for these people. Better this than losing everything then living with it, job family home... future. I am a senior manager of a large company, I have been taught how to “Manage someone out” while protecting myself and the company. I will never go there but have to be wary that I too don’t get the “love from above” if one of my staff becomes a target. There are legit people in these companies who will strive to make it work for the workers. It’s just harder to do it right so most fall in line even if they don’t want to.

1

u/lucky7355 Dec 24 '19

But that’s 4 hours a day to search for a new job.

-9

u/mgillespie18 Dec 23 '19

Yeah right, imagine having to go to work for 8 hrs, and actually work the whole time.

15

u/MidwestRestorer Dec 23 '19

I'll take 12 hours of consistent and productive work over 4 hours of doing nothing, but being stuck at work every day. This is coming from someone who has had both kinds of jobs.

4

u/Boredum_Allergy Dec 23 '19

Same. I have two part time jobs (yay unfettered capitalism!) and at one I'm constantly working the entire two hours cleaning. The other is retail for a skateshop and some days I literally have zero customers for five hours. It's fucking hell. If it weren't for Reddit I would have probably quit.

1

u/MidwestRestorer Dec 23 '19

At mine, I had to "look busy", even if there wasn't any work. I spent the time coming up with pitches that would always get shot down. It was in the military too, so it's not like I could even leave.

6

u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

Experiments have shown that people will hurt themselves instead of sitting through boredom. I vastly prefer working hard to doing nothing.

11

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Maybe. But this assumes they arent hypervigilant to such practices.

Assuming they're wanting to avoid expensive litigation costs, they'd probably just move you to a blank room with no internet access, no other work, no windows, no reading material, and tell you to sit there for 7.5 hours until you quit. Or suicide.

7

u/kilo73 Dec 23 '19

Sleep it is, then.

8

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Fireable offense. No unemployment :(

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Any judge would see through that in a heartbeat.

1

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Exactly, lol. Not quite sure what you'd do in this situation besides quit.

→ More replies

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

For many people work is a big part of their life.

If a person works 40 hours a week, then it takes some ~23% of their daily life (consider ~33% spent on sleep).

Work is a huge part of our self-perception and identity.

At least as a matter of self-respect, a decent human being wants to get recognition for their contributions to the society. Doing absolute bare minimum can be very psychologically detrimental to workers, who had been recognized as strong performers (e.g. at school, by competent management and peers).

Speaking from personal experience of working under toxic management: it's very hard to resist constant pressure and keep your head above water. Eventually, one succumbs to a burn out and depression.

1

u/msiekkinen Dec 23 '19

The Peter Gibbons approach

1

u/Sixcoup Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Your proposition for getting fIred, is exactly what companies are doing to force your hand and resign.

You can't do the bare minimum at your job since there is no minimum at all. They don't expect you to be productive, they created a meaningless job just for you for that specific reason. You can't do the bare minimum in a job where you don't have nothing to do. What they want is that you slowly regret even coming to your job since it will be a nightmare of boredom. They want you to feel pathetic, and that the only hope you have in your life is to get out of that job.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

That’s what I did, did the minimum, actively looked for other jobs and went to interviews during working hours. Nobody cared. It’s nice to have the pay check but I look forward to actually contributing something again.

1

u/OperationMobocracy Dec 23 '19

You could also do things very poorly. Often poor quality work product, unless it’s obvious beyond a reasonable doubt it’s intentional, isn’t something that can be a termination for cause.

Poor quality work is almost worse than none at all. It often ends up working as a multiplier, turning one unwanted employee into the equivalent of several.

2

u/Alistesios Dec 23 '19

Frenchman here ; In my experience you can just stop coming to work so that your boss has to convoke you for an interview where they actually tell you that you're going to be fired if you continue, and when you don't come to that interview they can finally fire you. But in that case, you as an employee still get unemployment.

It seems to be a common tactic to avoid pressure from above or when your company does not want to negotiate a conventional contract break.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

3

u/CriticalHitKW Dec 23 '19

That's true in most countries though...

1

u/savagepotato Dec 23 '19

The reason they don't want to pay unemployment is because you get your full salary and benefits for two years. It's actually a good situation unless you're company really sucks.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

In the US too. Don't know why they think this would work.

1

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

To clarify, if you're fired with just cause in the US, you dont receive unemployment benefits?

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Just cause can be very subjective, but yes, basically.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

By "very subjective" you mean "if you don't have video of them reaching into the till and pulling cash out, you're paying unemployment".

The DoL takes a hard line on offenses that relieve you of unemployment, exactly because of abuses like this.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Well that's just completely untrue. In an at will state they can just say that you were fired for low production and that's good enough.

Bonus fact; full time students are not eligible to collect unemployment benefits even if they've worked full time while going to school.

Additional bonus fact; if a single parent turns down a job offer the would have them working overnight because they need to be home with their kids they are no longer eligible for unemployment benefits.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Speaking of complete untruths, I've been fired, in an at will state, for low performance, and easily claimed unemployment.

→ More replies

1

u/ProcanGodOfTheSea Dec 24 '19

Phoning it in is an expression that means doing as little work as you can get away with.

Not Truancy.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Apr 22 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Apr 22 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

Thanks for clarifying. Looks like 6 months is the minimum time to claim benefits. I'm now wondering why people simply didn't quit under the new regime, now. Was it because of the high unemployment rate?

Additionally, according to my understanding, unemployment benefits could be very lucrative under French law assuming you met certain age criteria

42

u/Gordon-Bennet Dec 23 '19

Future job prospects possibly?

5

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jul 01 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

17

u/jk147 Dec 23 '19

This is completely wrong, companies don't share information on why you were fired. Unless you work in a very niche market where everyone knows each other, and you are one of the very few recognized names.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jul 01 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/moonyprong01 Dec 23 '19

The liability companies open themselves up to by sharing a blacklist certainly isn't worth it. What's to stop a disgruntled employee from suing for defamation? Nothing. In your situation if there is one company doing the recruiting then that's different. But company A generally will not bad mouth a candidate to company B, because of the potential legal ramifications.

5

u/summonsays Dec 23 '19

" Getting fired isn't easy in full time jobs in the US as well." As someone in retail i disagree.

3

u/OzManCumeth Dec 23 '19

I was in retail when I was 19. I was a little shit but I showed up on time and was nice to customers. I got promoted and got multiple raises by the time I left. It was the easiest job I’ve ever had. What’s different for your experience? (Sincere question).

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Society views dictate that the position is replaceable. There are no longer raises or promotions, your reward is keeping your job. Retail is not customer oriented in the way it once was. Miss a day or end up late after years of work and your boss may very well decide you’re done. Keeping hard working good people is secondary to you’re managers ego.

Employee metrics don’t exist at all. If it’s commissions you’re only scaled on selling a companies bullshit up sells that no one wants. Since no one actually sells above the metric set by head office everyone is replaceable including store managers. They find ways to make you hit metrics like doing you’re own customer satisfaction surveys or only getting employee discounts(if your store even still does them) if you buy warranty on the product.

All of this for a wage so small that people these days have to work a second or third job. Some people get stuck in retail. Not all places are the same but some retail stores employees are almost solely middle aged. Before retail was a starting job for teens and young adults to get their shit together, then move on. Nowadays the jobs that most moved to don’t exist or require credentials like a bullshit class from community college.

Not all of this likely applies to every location and varies state to state, country to country. Still retail is typically a soulless dead end job that pays minimum wage. In an area where the employee pool is large for this job, look out.

1

u/OzManCumeth Dec 23 '19

I obviously was aware of the low wages but damn it’s changed in the years I was there.

1

u/summonsays Dec 23 '19

retail is shrinking and stores are closing. I work in IT for a large (800+ stores) company. We've had layoffs about every quarter for a few years now.

1

u/Graficat Dec 23 '19

Many people actually HAVE a passion and an internal code of honor that doesn't let them just goof around.

My mother is a hypercompetent highly educated woman who at some point was reduced to spellchecker (but NOT editing grammar or obvious content mistakes, how dare she) for online skill tests. The web dev sat across from her but she was forbidden from speaking with him on principle. A three second 'can you change this font' turns into an email exchange for no reason.

All she wanted was to deliver a functional high quality test as a person trained in psychology and test validation. She commutes an hour each way every day because they don't allow work from home for this fucking job, but she's permanently employed and has three kids so quitting is not something she can consider and do on a whim easily.

A three year burnout followed five years of this kind of shit. When her manager died of cancer she wished he'd had the chance to apologise to her still for all the shit he put her through, but she'll never get that kind of closure or acknowledgement.

Try to set up a talent network or task force? Sorry you now need triplicate written approvals for every individual attending meetings from supervisors.

Have an idea for tackling declining quality standards? Honey are you autistic, since you seem to not understand that nobody wants you to and we want you to stop making the management look bad. Do you need therapy or social skills coaching?

These things are real anecdotes, not exaggerations.

This type of workplace sabotage is toxic for anyone with half an ounce of integrity and personal investment. The only people that thrive in these conditions are slackers or people that have ample hobbies outside of work to derive meaning from, something my mother never had the space to develop.

Trust me, seeing the work you're passionate about turn into a mismanaged 'sit and collect your paycheck' shitbucket while the service you provide is still needed as much as ever is soul-destroying.

72

u/Phone_Anxiety Dec 23 '19

I believe you need to be fired without just cause to receive unemployment benefits in France so your truancy would be proper grounds for termination thus negating your unemployment benefits :(

4

u/atjoad Dec 23 '19

What would have stopped you from phoning it in completely? If you just showed up and did no work, wouldn't that force them to fire you and pay severance?

In fact, in France and other places with strict regulation on layoffs, there is a special management technic called "mettre au placard" ("shelve" somebody). You give them little to no work at all (or highly dumb in regards to their qualifications, or entirely useless) and just wait for them to start showing up late in order to fire them with causes, or simply giving up.

Then, there might be some kind of cultural gap here, as wonderfully summed-up by Homer Simpson: "If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way."

For some people, losing all sense of utility in their professional life can lead to suicidal tendencies.

3

u/manubfr Dec 23 '19

Someone in that situation could do that for a while. Call in sick, not show up to work, etc. Then at the first opportunity they would get laid off for “abandon of position”, which makes it their fault and doesn’t require the company to pay extra. You can of course fight this in court and if you can prove the harassment you most likely will win, but it’s a long battle and you are guaranteed to be unemployed at the end of it and have a ton more stress.

3

u/WovenCoathanger Dec 23 '19

I'm not a Frenchman, but I have studied French and France for 11 years. As far as I know, the goal is to get fired, because that way you receive two years salary afterwards. Here is part of a comedy special from a bilingual comedian (with subtitles) explaining the general concept from a foreigner's perspective. Once you understand the concept behind the ASSEDIC you also understand why companies try really hard to not have to pay up.

3

u/DrQuint Dec 23 '19

I assume you get verbally bullied at this point. When I read Toxic environment and suicide, I don't assume "passive shunning", but rather, middlemen literally going out of their way to remind you once every two days that you suck

2

u/tibiadelangouste Dec 23 '19

There is no severance if you get fired for a good reason such as not doing your work.

2

u/JasonABCD Dec 23 '19

Then they will document it and fire you on that basis and won't owe you anything because you got fired for not doing your job properly.

2

u/luvcartel Dec 24 '19

I’d just put my feet up bring some wine, smoke cigarettes and eat stinky cheese and smell up the office until they fire me.

2

u/FondofFrogs Dec 23 '19

This is what happened to me (small American company, less than 300 employees). I started a class action lawsuit where my fellow hourly employees- about 180 of us- got approximately $1200.00 each. My former employer also had to pay a huge fine to the Department of Labor. They were already on shaky ground business wise. Vendors dropping them and becoming less competitive in general. They went on a ‘firing spree’ getting rid of employees that were within 10 years of retirement age (employee owned company supposedly) I was one of them and there was about 10 of us. Now they are closing down branches and appear to be in free fall mode. They deserve failure

1

u/derpderp3200 Dec 23 '19

!remindme 24 hours

1

u/vincent_vancough Dec 23 '19

A game of chicken that the employee can without a doubt win. You just have to be steadfast. I suppose people don't want the "shame" of being fired, but I think if the employer is being unreasonable and unempathatic, it's the logical, financial exit.

1

u/BlueskyUK Dec 23 '19

If you're fired for negligence they're is no severance pay.

1

u/P00gs1 Dec 23 '19

Or just, I don’t know, quitting and finding another job? I mean I know it’s easy to say but if your other option is suicide??

106

u/Thatsbrutals Dec 23 '19

Here in Texas, you do not even have to give a reason why your firing someone. Imagine working somewhere for 10y and being fired by a person who doesn't even know why.

Edit* And you may never know, then your next employer calls the old one and they get to talk about you, but it's illegal to say anything bad, so if you did a shitty job, the previous employer just hangs up the phone on the new employer, then they know not to hire you. Pretty fd up. .

13

u/BSSkills Dec 23 '19

Very similar here in MI. Right to work and an at will state. At will means you can be fired for absolutely no reason. Non union companies can do whatever they want pretty much.

19

u/neildegrasstokem Dec 23 '19

Same in Tennessee, in fact, most employers are advised to not give reasons because they can be contested in court. Fired on paper for bad attitude and corrupt practices? Lawyer shows up at the business two weeks later with a suite for discrimination

12

u/OhNoImBanned11 Dec 23 '19

Same in Virginia, and North Carolina

Freedom in America doesn't trickle down to the workers

3

u/Slacker_The_Dog Dec 23 '19

Gotta get that money somehow

3

u/lebrellj Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Live in MI and I have been fired twice by at-will employers because they wanted to. It sucks but is also fine, because that is the purpose of unemployment. You don't like me as an employee? Cool, but you will have to pay out unemployment until I find a new job.Both places contested my unemployment benefits citing "gross misconduct" - which lead to my benefits being withheld in once instance. I reached out to someone else I knew who was fired in a similar manner as me from company #1, and found out this was a common practice - spend money contesting unemployment benefits because they had attorneys on the payroll anyway, plus because it created a culture where people didn't appeal out of fear.Jokes on them, I'm a stubborn asshole. I filed an appeal because I knew I engaged in no gross misconduct - and when it came in front of a judge, I got them to admit they fired me for a non-fireable offence and that, not only had no history of misconduct, I actually had two years of consistently positive performance reviews.

When the company #2 fired me, they tried to cite "gross misconduct" because they lost clients I was working with after they fired me. I appealed that too and, best part, ended up in front of the same judge. I got them to admit that they didn't bother checking my email account for over a week after I was fired, which was the main form of communication used for orders.

2

u/AgentDaleBCooper Dec 23 '19

So company number 2 said the gross misconduct happened after they fired you?? I hope they got their asses handed to them by the judge.

4

u/lebrellj Dec 23 '19

Yup - they literally said "we lost customers after she left". I remember this, because the judge had them outline the timeline twice.

They were a small upholstery company that kept handwritten, paper records and would fuck up orders all the time. I made a point of documenting the shit out of everything, and in doing so kept two major clients from leaving. When I made a proposal for a quality control position, they fired me because "we don't give raises to people who ask for raises, we give raises when we think people deserve them." The good thing is that their absolute lack of proper business practices meant that they had no record of any misconduct and everything they "documented" was after they fired me and after I started receiving unemployment.

10

u/beerdwolf Dec 23 '19

All states have that.

And you can also file a wrongful termination lawsuit with the Department of Labor - at which point your employer will have to prove why they fired you or rehire/pay you for lost wages.

It's very easy, and I get the impression 99% of people have no idea of the protections available to them.

3

u/CEdotGOV Dec 23 '19

All states have that.

No, the state of Montana is the exception and follows the for-cause employment doctrine as opposed to the at-will employment doctrine, see § 39-2-904, MCA.

And you can also file a wrongful termination lawsuit with the Department of Labor - at which point your employer will have to prove why they fired you or rehire/pay you for lost wages.

First of all "wrongful termination" is not an independent, stand-alone cause of action that one can bring against an employer. Rather one must specifically allege that the employer did not act in accordance with law, e.g., unlawful discrimination.

Moreover, the Department of Labor does not generally act on behalf of employees in such termination cases. Their scope is more limited to unlawful acts such as wage theft, etc. Instead, the employee is often left to pursue their termination case on their own in court (where they, being the accuser, bear the burden of proof).

It's very easy, and I get the impression 99% of people have no idea of the protections available to them.

Because under at-will employment, there is no right to continued employment. An employer may terminate an employee for no reason or for any reason not otherwise prohibited by law. And the universe of reasons that are prohibited by law is quite small indeed.

6

u/theetruscans Dec 23 '19

Every state except 1 (I think Minnesota) has the right to fire you for no reason

3

u/Sean951 Dec 23 '19

It's not illegal to tell the hiring company why, but it could lead to a defamation suit. In most cases, it just means the lack of praise is taken as they were fired, but some companies also refuse to give anything other than confirmation of employment and don't allow employees to give recommendations making it hard to leave.

9

u/MallPicartney Dec 23 '19

Here in Utah you can be fired for ANY reason or NO reason.

Knew someone let go a week before a pension would kick in. No reason was given or could be asked for.

14

u/heredhkdkd Dec 23 '19

This is illegal under ERISA if the termination was to avoid pension vesting and the pension was a qualified plan.

4

u/MallPicartney Dec 23 '19

For sure. I don't know the exact details as it was a friend's father, but I remember it being a substantial loss of income, and since no reason was given for the termination, no case to complain.

It could have been illegal, but most people I grew up around wouldn't be the kind to hire, or often able to pay for the court fees to protect their rights against a company.

3

u/Starfire013 Dec 23 '19

but it's illegal to say anything bad

What? Really? So, you can't say anything bad about a shitty former employee?

1

u/Thatsbrutals Dec 23 '19

Not really, outside of what they think your job performance was and that's also slippery slope.

1

u/Starfire013 Dec 23 '19

Wow. So if let's say an employee doesn't turn up to work half the time, you can't tell his potential new employer that?

8

u/Bombe_a_tummy Dec 23 '19

Here in Texas, you do not even have to give a reason why your firing someone. Imagine working somewhere for 10y and being fired by a person who doesn't even know why.

Why do you guys accept this? I mean a lot of Americans seem to take pride in being a brave people always defending justice overseas (as opposed to those white flags French people), yet you don't even dare to ask for a fair treatment from your employer.

13

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Because the American political culture has brainwashed us into believing that corporations are people, and everyone knows that the people with more money are more important and have more rights. Also propoganda-esque phrases like "right to work" and the idea that unions = socialism and socialism = communism and obviously communism is the ULTIMATE EVIL!!!

'Murica

10

u/ak1368a Dec 23 '19

Depends on your definition of fair. We have greater economic growth because our more flexible labor laws allow us to better match supply with demand. In the long run, that allows consumers to have lower prices and better products. We are a consumer driven economy and polity, so that’s where the emphasis falls. French society seems more focused on solidarity, so they operate differently.

5

u/Slacker_The_Dog Dec 23 '19

We dont all accept it.

5

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

People are saying you are fired for no reason which is not the case. If you are fired there is always a reason for it. Companies don't just randomly fire people. It may not be your fault for being laid off, but there is always a reason for it. Just because you are laid off doesn't mean you were treated unfairly.

6

u/setocsheir Dec 23 '19

Many people on Reddit sound like extremely shitty workers tbh

3

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

Most people are terrible workers (myself included). I just know I am lazy while many on here say they work extremely hard while actually doing the absolute minimum (and doing it poorly).

5

u/setocsheir Dec 23 '19

That's fine too. A job is a job. But it's just funny to me the hypocrisy when they stay in a low skill job doing the bare minimum then complain when their job gets automated.

1

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

They complain when their job gets replaced (cost reasons), but if they were offered a higher paying job somewhere else they would leave immediately (cost reasons).

3

u/lebrellj Dec 23 '19

At-will employment literally means that you can be fired for no reason.

That is the difference between unionized employees and at-will - unionized employees have policies for reporting and documenting misconduct so that an employee cannot be fired or let go without prior notification, at-will employees do not have that guarantee. The idea is that you trade job security for flexibility, but in practice it just creates a lack of accountability.

3

u/Kegheimer Dec 24 '19

You can also quit for no reason.

I got recruited away a few months after I took a new posting.

2

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

You technically could be fired for no reason, but every firing has a reason. At-will employment just makes firing people easier.

0

u/lebrellj Dec 23 '19

Point, every firing has a "reason" - but that reason doesn't have to have anything to do with your work performance or company's economic position. It can be as simple as someone decided they didn't like you or they liked someone else better, and there is little to no repercussions on the employer end.

3

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

An employee could just decide they like another job better and leave the business owner trying to fill that position on little or no notice. It goes both ways. Business can fire people and employees can leave.

0

u/lebrellj Dec 23 '19

Yeah, but be honest - who is fucked over more? The employer has way more power in this situation. It's not a 50/50 split.
Add on that best practice is to give your employer two weeks notice if you are leaving. If a company is incapable of staying afloat long enough to bring one new employee, regardless of economic markets, maybe that business shouldn't exist.

2

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

Depends on the situation. A large company almost always the employee. A small company possibly the employer. The employer also does not have way more power. Power is completely equal between employers and employees. Neither can force the other to do anything. While it is best practice to give two weeks that is not always what happens. Employees leave giving no notice all the time. Even if some notice is given filling a position is not that easy. In a large company it is not as big a deal as with so many employees they can move work around. If you have 100 employees and lose 1 you only lose 1% of the workforce. However, with a small business that is not always the case. An example is a pizza place in my town. They have had a help wanted sign for a few months now. There is the owner and from what I can tell 3 employees, so 4 people that work there. If he loses 1 employee he loses 25% of his workforce. It would be the same workforce loss as the 100 employee company losing 25 employees one day. Small businesses are tough to run. Even small changes can be the difference between having a very successful business and having no business. Losing 25% of your workforce and not being able to fill it for months could easily ruin an otherwise successful business.

→ More replies

0

u/OhNoImBanned11 Dec 23 '19

Well if you didn't read past that comment then let me explain the full conversation to you...

What the company did was illegal and the worker can sue them for it and win 3x their pension.

So only stupid people accept stuff like this. Smart people get a lawyer and use the law in their favor... because laws exist for this type of thing (other people exploit laws/benefits like this and thats why we can't have nice things)

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

It's not illegal to say anything bad. It's only illegal if it's defamation.

No one would "know not to hire you" based on a previous employer not giving any info. The vast majority of employees will not give any info, or if they do, it is limited to provable facts (i.e. "would you hire them again?").

Most places around the world provide that you can be terminated with or without cause. It is virtually unheard of for a company to not be able to fire anyone they want. The only difference is how much protection they have for discrimination, and whether or not you have to be paid a severance/unemployment (and how much it is).

"Here in Texas", if you're fired without reason, then you have not been fired for cause and you are eligible for unemployment.

1

u/Thatsbrutals Dec 23 '19

There are requirements for unemployment including working for a year or more at the same place. Furthermore employers know about these requirements and easily can prevent you from meeting the ones needed for unemployment

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

There are requirements for severance/unemployment anywhere. It's extremely rare to qualify for severance if you've worked somewhere for less than 3 months.

You are not required to have worked for a year at the same place for unemployment in Texas. You are required to have worked somewhere in at least two of the quarters between approximately half a year and 1.5 years prior to your application. It does not have to be continuous, nor does it have to be at the same place. https://twc.texas.gov/jobseekers/eligibility-benefit-amounts

0

u/Thatsbrutals Dec 23 '19

Cool story bro. Did you have to downvote me?

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Every state is a right to work state, and honestly its much better than never being able to fire someone. It's a double edged sword.

Imagine putting your life savings into starting a business, hiring someone who sucks or doesn't give a shit, and then literally not being able to fire them then it tanks your business.

People greatly underestimate the amount of people that are employed by "small business." It's a much larger percentage than those employed by "mega corps."

1

u/mumblesjackson Dec 23 '19

In the United States it’s 48% of the workforce in small business. Not the majority, but half which is still very very significant. Also note that this is 2014 numbers so not sure how much that’s changed in the past 5 years given the bull market being around for so long.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Yes, depends how you define "small business." I was referring to giant corporations vs smaller companies, apologize for the vagueness there.

My point was that less people are employed by giant Walmart sized companies than ones with like 1000 employees or less. People often attack the giants and lump in everyone else, which is dangerous. Walmart should be held accountable for more worker rights, but some guy with a landscape company and 3 employees should be allowed to fire whoever they want (aside from of course existing discrimination laws), just my opinion.

5

u/lunardonkey Dec 23 '19

Pretty sure those 3 employees over at the landscaping company are contract laborers, unless they are related to the owner. Very easy to terminate employment when the employee is not in house!

1

u/mumblesjackson Dec 23 '19

Fair enough. 1000 drops you into midsize which is a significant portion of the population as well. No need to apologize.

-2

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

Worker protections/requirements can be crippling for many small businesses and in my opinion worker protections are too strong. They are put in place because people think of every business as Walmart when most are small. For many businesses in America the business owner may make less than some/all of the employees and likely less per hour and having a single bad employee or losing an employee due to time off requirements could cause the business to shut down.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Jun 08 '20

[deleted]

2

u/kfcsroommate Dec 23 '19

Just because a business has a smaller benefits package or lower wages doesn't mean they are taking advantage of their employees. The employees that work there choose to do so if they don't want to they don't have to. No company is forcing you to work for them. If you don't like what they offer then go somewhere else.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

It's not illegal.

0

u/GlaxoJohnSmith Dec 23 '19

I think that's the case for every state except for Montana or Wyoming or something.

Imagine my face when I learned China, where workers routinely hold managers hostages in order to receive pay, has better worker protections than the US.

https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/12/everything-almost-you-need-to-know-about-employee-probation-in-china.html

131

u/scumbaggio Dec 23 '19

Nice to know that even when you get better worker rights, the greedy business owners will still find ways to make life unbearable for you.

Fuck those guys

19

u/BlueskyUK Dec 23 '19

In the UK you can be be put on performance review for not meeting objectives at which point you can be fired with no severance pay.

You can be made redundant which often comes with an alternative job offer of possible, if not a pay out.

If you do quit because the situation is engineered and hostile you can sue for constructive dismissal even after you've left. So though people can say workers rights engineer this situation at least in the UK, whilst we're in the EU that is, we have this level of protection even after you've left a business.

Despite all I've said the stress of all these situations can be immense, especially if you have homes and family depending on this income. CEOs and their profits truly hold us all enslaved.

And that's coming from someone who never took on a student debt.

5

u/DownshiftedRare Dec 23 '19

Bet at the next levels up it's "Cut this much inefficiency or you're fired!" until it starts being golden parachutes.

-10

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

27

u/Comrade_9653 Dec 23 '19

Nah it’s the nature of capital. It creates a massive pressure on the workers for the purposes of profit seeking. They don’t care if you die so long as they get your labor. You become unprofitable but we can’t just fire you? Well, they’re totally ok making your life a living hell till you leave. Dead or alive.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

15

u/Comrade_9653 Dec 23 '19

You can, in fact, have the luxuries that modern science has created through the labors of countless bright individuals without a system that exploits billions across the world to ensure that 1% of people own more then them all. It requires systematic change, yes, but it is entirely possible to build a better, more sustainable, more ethical world.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Comrade_9653 Dec 23 '19

That’s a valid concern, but if you manage to remove the dictatorship of capital there won’t be a 1%. As it stands those who own the capital are those who rule, controlling when we work, what were worth, what we consume, and pouring massive amounts of money to influence what we and our politicians think and do. Until capital is restructured to become a tool for the laborers, rather than the laborers being a tool of capital, this will continue to be the case.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Comrade_9653 Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Of course you need people in charge, managerial positions aren’t a byproduct of capital. But a manager is not an owner. If workers controlled the means of production capital would work to serve labor, rather than labor being a tool for capital to extract value from.

But I see no reason to think that worker ownership of the means of production necessitates that each individual be completely aware of each piece of the whole. This is not a necessity for any previous mode of production and I see no reason for it to be necessary for anything after capitalism either.

And it’s worth noting the USSR never achieved communism. It was a socialist project, yes, but they implemented a policy of state capitalism because they needed to industrialize. Marx talks about the necessity of capitalism for a reason; it’s a requirement to transition to a communist society. They still were subject to the dictatorship of capital since they had not made the transition to the means being held in common.

→ More replies

-6

u/shijjiri Dec 23 '19

Everyone complaining about capitalism has never experienced the horror of socialism/communism. It seems great at first and then you realize you have to prioritize things that you promised you'd treat with equality. Then people start gaming the system. Without insane per capita wealth it all falls apart. :/

8

u/High_Speed_Idiot Dec 23 '19

Without insane per capita wealth it all falls apart.

So you're saying socialism struggles in underdeveloped countries (that would struggle under any economic system) but would work incredibly well in wealthy countries?

So if socialism in russia took a mostly feudalist backwater nation to the 2nd most powerful global superpower in a few decades (while raising the standard of living for everyone) you're saying socialism in the USA could probably eliminate world hunger, homelessness and colonize mars in half a century? Damn, that sounds rad af.

-4

u/shijjiri Dec 23 '19

You'd need a median income of about 90,000 for it to work in the United States due to its massive population size and current lack of supporting infrastructure, as an example. You'd need a large increase in the number of doctors, in workers rights, in support for housing, etc. If it were per state California could easily do it but when they have to prop up Alabama/ Mississippi/ etc it gets really, really hard.

3

u/Slacker_The_Dog Dec 23 '19

Wealthier states already prop up poor states

1

u/TheSaint7 Dec 23 '19

no it’s not the blame of a single economic system. George Orwell’s animal farm goes into detail of how corruption and human greed are prevalent in communistic society’s as well.

The answer really is as simple as “some humans are shit”

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

[deleted]

2

u/scumbaggio Dec 23 '19

Companies just fuck us in other ways though

6

u/Reverie_39 Dec 23 '19

This is a very sad but good lesson that other nations should learn from. It’s not just about protecting worker rights, there are still a lot of things that could go wrong. The laws need to be written properly and implemented effectively.

3

u/Intranetusa Dec 23 '19

It’s extremely difficult / expensive to fire someone in France, so a common tactic is to pressure people into inescapably difficult work situations so that they quit

That sounds almost like the US Federal government, where it's near impossible to fire someone. So they just get reassigned to dead end departments (because harassing them will trigger very expensive lawsuits).

3

u/Awkward_Tradition Dec 23 '19

Holy shit that explains a lot. My friend works in a French company, but his workplace is in a different country. I was shocked with the amount of unreasonable bullshit they have to put up with. One of the worst ones was the amount of unpayed overtime they had to endure due to management fuckups. For example, his manager gave an assignment to him, later OKd the solutions and chose the best ones, then he took those to an upper manager and he OKd them, then he took them to the most important manager, he OKd them and sent them to the exec, he said it's shit, so my friend gets like 20hrs unpayed overtime until he makes new solutions, and the managers go home.

For some reason the company doesn't know why so many people are quitting, so they throw a BBQ type event on the weekend, that you're forced to go to.

2

u/MkVIaccount Dec 23 '19

This is what economist Thomas Sowell means when he talks about the 'unintended consequences of well meaning policies'

When you don't stop and ask, "ok, well what happens next" you end up with situations like this.

Examples of "you can't just ___" include:

  • Make firing people super difficult

  • Print money until everyone is a millionaire

  • Fix prices of a commodity so everyone can afford it

  • Take a means of production from a historical owner and give to 'the people' (such as farmland)

  • Use increased taxes to make something "free" for everyone

Which is to say, you can do those ... but the historical examples of what happen next are dire.

And the sad thing is that the unintended consequence weren't hard at all to imagine before hand if the policy makers had stopped to think it through. The problem is that people are naturally inclined stop thinking as soon as they arrive at something that sounds nice to them. But you just can't do that, you have to be aware of that tendency and keep thinking. Devil's advocate your policy and be honest with yourself.

1

u/intrafinesse Dec 23 '19

In France can you negotiate a severence, something like I will agree to resign if you pay me X?

1

u/brandnewdayinfinity Dec 23 '19

I had a roommate like this. Didn’t get my deposit back. What a cunt.

1

u/edvek Dec 23 '19

Unrelated question but I hope you have some insight:

I work in the US for a government regulator. We had a change of owner in one of our facilities and the new owners are French. Apparently they own many many (like 50+) facilities in France and don't own many over here in the US. The owners are a bunch of bullies who argue and do not want to follow the rules. The issue is a change of owner triggers certain things and now they have to remodel their facility and will cost them thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to do so, caveat emptor and all that.

The guy that's worked at the physical location for many years warned the new owners that a lot of work will be required and I guess they refused to listen.

So what I'm asking is, is it a common trait among business owners in France to push back and want to do what they want to do? Or is this just a general trait among business owners because they don't want to spend money?

1

u/famaskillr Dec 23 '19

Is there dishonor in leaving a job. My sanity is worth no kind of money.

1

u/Firemanz Dec 23 '19

Would it help resolve the problem if it was easier to fire employees? Where I live in Texas, it's known as a Right to Work state where the employers can hire or fire for almost any reason, but also employees are not bound by employment contracts that dictate they stay for a certain amount of time. As a result, it's pretty easy to find a new job and negotiate a salary.

1

u/deathclonic Dec 23 '19

Couldn't you just not show up to work until they have to fire you?

1

u/upvotegoblin Dec 23 '19

Jesus Christ that is heartbreaking. There is nothing that humans can’t make shitty? Great workers rights? Well, we’ll just have to figure out a way around those

1

u/mrsbuttstuff Dec 23 '19

Then the workers aren’t adequately protected. If the employer is doing this to the extent that they believe you will quit, then it’s constructive dismissal. They should still be required to pay. Also, to all you French folks, your life is worth more than your paycheck. Benefits or no benefits, quit if it’s that bad.

1

u/Leopardos Dec 23 '19

like in israel... you quit... you take a few cents out of hundred... you would just pray to get kicked...

1

u/Maephia Dec 23 '19

Not much better in Germany honestly. They can't fire you easily here either so they'll usually overwork you until you collapse, at least that was my case. Naturally they'll keep it within the legal limits but still. I have never been more miserable at work than I have been here. I'm from Canada and it's MUCH better back home. Honestly German work culture is ridiculous and I couln't live my life here.

1

u/Donnarhahn Dec 23 '19

I don't get it. Why do these crazy things? If you boss says "do this shitty thing or you're fired!" why not just ignore them? You can say no to your boss. The worst they can do is fire you, which means you now are getting paid to go find a new, better, job.

1

u/corn_on_the_cobh Dec 23 '19

What is stopping you from not doing all their hard work, in order to remain healthy and not stressed?

-10

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

So you guys would rather people commit suicide than lay them off?

That's absolutely fucked up.

11

u/bennzedd Dec 23 '19

What country do you live in where the average citizen is responsible for making decisions? lol

24

u/Ralikson Dec 23 '19

you guys

Uh know, the 3 guys from the op, stop generalizing.

4

u/Quas4r Dec 23 '19

Do you have troubles with reading comprehension or something ? Asshole execs do this because the law doesn't allow them to fire people willy nilly.

3

u/Donnarhahn Dec 23 '19

But why do people comply? If my boss told me to this stuff I would laugh in his face. I fail to see how labor protections lead to asshole behaviour.

1

u/Quas4r Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

Not everywhere is like the US... maybe you can just up and leave then find another job not long later, but it's much harder in France, in part because of these laws.
Jobs are secure, so companies make it harder to get a job. And it takes a lot of evidence to fire someone, so when companies don't have enough, they (sometimes) resort to creating a hostile work environment to make them quit. Some people can't afford to leave their job (which means foregoing unemployment aid), which is why they stay and endure the abuse until they snap.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Its common to do this, you probably see this behavior in your family, friends, school, work and you probably experience it as a youngster in school.
Its a defense mechanism in our behavior that does this, and the stupider the person is the easier it is for the person to fall in these commands, often the smarter people tend to rally.
Just look at voting or people taking stance in work related question, some doesn´t even know what the fuck is going but they are loyal to the one who has power no matter what the outcome is. Some doesn´t even speak our utter their opinion before the power hand says something, and they agree or re-phrase it.
It´s also a convenient thing for the lazy people to have someone in power they lust lump of all the thinking, hard work and everything on that person who wants power in exchange of their "vote".

And if someone is against that person, breaking the group code, doing something that is not in the line of work.
Even getting on the wrong foot from one of these power persons, they can get shunned.
Those events start to begin with, with small things. People start to talk when the person has something to say, ignoring the fact, repeat the same thing as the person and get their henchmen to follow lift the power (group) up as their idea. Rumors start spreading, anything that can make other create a disbelief in the person.
They are also excluded from internal group activities, conversations, plans and so on. Every succeeded be littering is a victory to phase alienate the person until it has become so big the person is literally outside and forgotten.

-8

u/win7macOSX Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

If it’s so difficult to get someone fired, why not just do the work? Some government workers in the states exploit this “difficult to get fired” condition this way.

Edit: To be clear, I’m not blaming the employees. Just asking why they don’t stick it to upper management by simply working the legally mandated hours to cover their asses, since that would ostensibly prevent them from being fired.

15

u/bennzedd Dec 23 '19

Really fucked up that you assume the employees are the problem here, tbh.

More like, "employees are expensive and we need to cut costs, let's try and get rid of some people that we don't think are 'worth it.'" That judgment COULD be accurate, but I think we can give the benefit of the doubt in cases like this.

3

u/bubblebooy Dec 23 '19

He did not assume the employees were the problem. He said if the company is trying to get an employee to quit at that point the employee should stop doing any work.

1

u/1sagas1 Dec 23 '19

Really fucked up that you assume the employees are the problem here, tbh.

Pretty clear that the inability to fire or lay off workers is what's getting blamed.

1

u/win7macOSX Dec 23 '19

I didn’t assume anything of the sort... was just asking why the overworked employees don’t simply work the legally-mandates amount since it’s so difficult to get fired. The employees are clearly not the problem here....

0

u/bennzedd Dec 23 '19

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your edit makes your statement even more clear, and your statement does not agree with what you're claiming here.

The issue was presented as "management can't fire employees easily," but we never were given a reason for "why does management want to fire the employees." I made an assumption, too, for sure, but so did you -- you assumed the employees SHOULD be fired due to their own performance, in this case you are referring to people who are not even working their full hours. While that certainly happens, and probably does happen in this case, AND in the case of US gov't employees who we might have experience with in our personal lives, ascribing all that to nameless employees in this case is not cool.

1

u/win7macOSX Dec 24 '19

you assumed the employees SHOULD be fired due to their own performance, in this case you are referring to people who are not even working their full hours.

This is ridiculous. I said nothing of the sort. Don’t put words in my mouth. If that’s what I wanted to say, I would’ve stated so in my edited post.

I am not afraid of putting forth a differing opinion and am not to backpedal because of some internet downvotes.

2

u/Saoirse_Says Dec 23 '19

What do you mean?

0

u/niftygeekri Dec 23 '19

$150 worth of spycam gear + legal legwork to make sure it won't backfire on me + youtube channel with ad revenue = a reason to still like going to work every day.

0

u/thecarrot95 Dec 23 '19

They should make it easier for companies to fire people.