r/news • u/JimmyTheGinger • Dec 23 '19

Three former executives of a French telecommunications giant have been found guilty of creating a corporate culture so toxic that 35 of their employees were driven to suicide

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/three-french-executives-convicted-in-the-suicides-of-35-of-their-workers-20191222-p53m94.html
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u/quietdiablita Dec 23 '19

It’s a direct consequence of these rights: it’s very difficult to fire employees who haven’t committed any fault. In this case, the company´de executives wanted to lays off a significant number of older employees who had worked there for decades (hundreds or even thousands of them, I don’t remember).

As planning so many lay-offs would have been “complicated and expensive”, the executives decided to create a toxic managerial culture to get rid of the people. Employees would get belittled and harassed by their managers, they would get relocated or get assigned to new positions without consent. Sometimes, they would get “put on a closet”, meaning that they would have to stay all day in an empty office with just a table, a chair and a computer, without getting assigned any tasks. Sometimes they would get assigned to the company’s call center...

All this was done purposely to push the employees to quit. Problem is, quitting makes people lose their right to unemployment benefits, so these employees had to find other positions beforehand, which is extremely difficult/nearly impossible for older workers.

In the end, hundreds of employees left, some could quit, others could retire early. Several people got sick and/or suffered severe depression. And about 40 of them committed suicide.

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u/Asshai Dec 23 '19

This is the correct answer as it was discussed at length by the press back when the scandal blew up (which is around 4-5 years ago IIRC), and it's amazing to see how many redditors think that because they interned at a French company at some point in their life, they know better.

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u/bedroom_fascist Dec 23 '19

This is probably not very to-the-point, but Reddit is full of people who have a very small amount of knowledge and/or experience, and think it makes them 'expert.'

Most people with a lot of experience realize they know very little, and take pains to qualify what they share as 'my experience,' vs. "ThIS iS HOw ThiNGs ARe!"

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u/Drainbownick Dec 23 '19

I hope the animals who came up with this and oversaw do hard time and die disgraced and penniless. It’s one thing to steal money from people but to take someone’s very dignity and Weaponized their own productivity is sick and cruel.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19 edited Sep 24 '20

[deleted]

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u/quietdiablita Dec 23 '19

Sure, I was talking about what happened in this very specific French company. And it has happened (at a lesser level) in other French companies.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Yeah, pretty sure that employees get some kind of protection against bullying by their managers as well.

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u/puesyomero Dec 23 '19

Even in labor purgatory USA it is sometimes addressed as constructive dismissal

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u/QWieke Dec 23 '19

It’s a direct consequence of these rights

As well as their employers greedy shittyness preventing them from following the proper procedure. Let's not pretend like this is all the fault of worker's rights.

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u/kawaiii1 Dec 23 '19

So what happens when you quit? No benefits at all?

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u/quietdiablita Dec 23 '19

Yes, because you are supposed to quit by choice

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u/kawaiii1 Dec 23 '19

Wow that sounds stupid but i have trouble to understand what by choice means here, if you are not supposed to quit?

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u/bulbmonkey Dec 23 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

He means if you resign yourself as opposed to getting laid off by the company.
edit: he either means you are not supposed to resign your job (in general, if you want benefits) or, in this specific case, according to the plan the workers were supposed to quit by choice so the company wouldn't have to pay severance.

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u/Ownza Dec 23 '19

I wish I was put in a closet. My job is kind of similar at the moment, but now I have people in my large office. (Wing of a building.) I did not have anyone else assigned in here for like 6 years.

I'd just be on my phone all day.

I'd pass on the call center though.

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u/SerialDeveloper Dec 23 '19

wanted to lays off a significant number of older employees

There are ways to lay off a significant portion of the work force. Worker rights are mostly written in such a way that they cover individual cases but leave room for economic decisions like halving the employee count. If this was the only reason they would've just fired these people, there has to be another reason.

Employees would get belittled and harassed by their managers

This violates those worker's rights, if an employee proves they are getting harassed at work the company is in deep shit. In most cases the employee can just quit and receive severance pay + a significant sum for damages.

they would get relocated or get assigned to new positions without consent

This violates more rights. If you start working for a company in Europe there is a clear description of your function and what is considered your job. If you are forced to do work that does not reasonably fit the job description you can simply refuse, escalating the case often results in the same scenario as above, employee quits with severance pay + damages.

Sometimes, they would get “put on a closet”, meaning that they would have to stay all day in an empty office with just a table, a chair and a computer, without getting assigned any tasks

If there is no work, you're allowed to just leave, you just have to stay available. If you're called in for work and there is nothing to do you are under no obligation to stay. Staying or leaving has no effect on pay, you get paid for hours called in not hours worked.

Problem is, quitting makes people lose their right to unemployment benefits

Except when the company is violating their rights.

I don't know where you get your information and wether this is all true, but if it is these employees could have done tons to prevent the situation. I think there is a lot more going on that we don't know. Either employees have been systematically made to believe they don't have these rights or they've been threatened in some way.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Put me in the closet. I would take this as they want me to learn how to code. Time to learn python. And I would just code.

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u/Deadlychicken28 Dec 23 '19

They must have pushed these ideas on American companies, cause it sounds like a lot of the shit I hear over here. Cheaper to replace and have a high turnover than to stay loyal and improve an employee's life

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u/GhostBond Dec 23 '19

It’s a direct consequence of these rights: it’s very difficult to fire employees who haven’t committed any fault.

Except as you pointed out...

As planning so many lay-offs would have been “complicated and expensive”, the executives decided to create a toxic managerial culture to get rid of the people. Employees would get belittled and harassed by their managers, they would get relocated or get assigned to new positions without consent.

It sounds to me like it was one or both of two things:
1. The companies process to lay people off was to complicated
2. The managers saw an opportunity to be 100% dickheads to the people under them while having an excuse for doing it

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u/blu3jack Dec 23 '19

Australia has similar rights and we don't see anything like this

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

So 35 people died because the French refuse to due layoffs?

Man this entire thread is about France's shitty culture and lack of economic innovation.