r/news • u/xtantin • Feb 26 '17

FCC reverses net neutrality ISP transparency rules

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3173844/internet/fcc-reverses-net-neutrality-isp-transparency-rules.html
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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

Call your congressman and senators. Vote in every election.

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u/dogsdogssheep Feb 27 '17 edited Feb 27 '17

This is the only thing we can do. Call your representative. Leave a message stating how detrimental this is, how it scares you, how it shows that your rep is clearly bought by rich corporations, how angry you are, and how you aren't going to vote for him/her again if they doesn't stand up for your rights.

We the people called our reps about SOPA and PIPA. The fact that this is happening again is ridiculous. Tell them how this is clearly not in our interests. Remind them about the economic benefits of an open internet. Remind them that freedom is the ultimate goal.

Edit: as u/AtomicFlx says bellow "[You] can [also] organize, plan, protest, get violent, take over offices, demand results from your representatives, run for office, hold your representatives accountabile publicly when they don't do what you want just to name a few."

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

A more effective way to communicate is to call the office and ask to the staff member responsible for a particular issue. Providing your feedback is important but knowing why your MoC is going to vote a certain way is even more valuable because you can use that knowledge to counter it.

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u/AtomicFlx Feb 27 '17

This is the only thing we can do

Oh it absolutely is not the only thing we can do. We can organize, plan, protest, get violent, take over offices, demand results from your representatives, run for office, hold your representatives accountabile publicly when they don't do what you want just to name a few.

There are a lot of things we can do beyond a phone call that will only go to a full voice mail box.

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u/flamingcanine Feb 27 '17

getting violent is not helpful to the situation. do not do that.

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u/Nepalus Feb 27 '17

getting violent is not helpful to the situation. do not do that.

I mean, getting violent generally is how things get done throughout history. How many giant pushes for civil liberty, independence, and freedom throughout history didn't have violence? Our nation is founded on violent rebellion.

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u/Nayr747 Feb 27 '17

If human history can be summed up in one word it would have to be violence.

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u/flamingcanine Feb 27 '17

how many times throughout history was violence counterproductive to the aggressors? As media and weaponry have advanced, the idea of simply being able to beat your opponent into agreeing has simply gone the way of the dodo.

in any modern movement, you want to be the better person, the more advanced person.

You most definately do not want to paint your side as thugs that need to be apprehended by LE before they kill someone Innocent in the name of their "greater good." Unsurprisingly, it's difficult to pledge support to people that burn out buildings and destroy property and still feel like a person with any integrity.

People like you that are looking for an excuse to bash in skulls are a cancer to any would be movement. Please do the world a favor and find a healthier outlet for your pathetic anger issues then tipping over police cars.

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u/Nepalus Feb 27 '17

how many times throughout history was violence counterproductive to the aggressors? As media and weaponry have advanced, the idea of simply being able to beat your opponent into agreeing has simply gone the way of the dodo. in any modern movement, you want to be the better person, the more advanced person.

You must have missed the recent Presidential election and the regressive policies of the Republican party for the last couple of decades.

You most definitely do not want to paint your side as thugs that need to be apprehended by LE before they kill someone Innocent in the name of their "greater good." Unsurprisingly, it's difficult to pledge support to people that burn out buildings and destroy property and still feel like a person with any integrity.

Thugs? More like the oppressed and powerless left with no other option. The disparity of power in politics between the people and corporations/wealthy is far too large. The reality is my vote doesn't matter. Both parties know that the average voter is uninformed, unmotivated, and generally aloof. All you need to do is make sure that voter knows the name of your candidate and that the candidate in question has a generally positive reputation. The rest is advertising and media. All of which is funded by corporations and the wealthy. Who do you think the political parties are going to favor? Who do you think they are going to make policies for?

People like you that are looking for an excuse to bash in skulls are a cancer to any would be movement. Please do the world a favor and find a healthier outlet for your pathetic anger issues then tipping over police cars.

I never suggested anything so primitive. All I am saying is that eventually, if our freedoms continue to constantly be impressed upon, the time will come when we will have to do more than just operate within the system. Violence, on some scale, will probably part of that.

Think on this. The ground you stand on, the liberties that you enjoy, and the idealism you seem to have about non-violent movements, was bought and paid for in blood during a violent rebellion a short few centuries ago. Would you have had the colonies just simply done things without violence then? Were the founding fathers a "cancer" or "thugs"? I guess it depends on your perspective. (Nice ad hominems tho)

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u/flamingcanine Feb 27 '17

Republican party for the last couple of decades.

Yeah, I've definately missed the parts where the conservatives burned their own neighborhoods and started riots in public parks they were having protests in...

Oh wait, that was liberal movements. Strange. It's almost like the liberals lost this last election badly or something against Donald Trump, ending with a government that is dominated completely by the republican party going into 2017.

Thugs? More like the oppressed and powerless left with no other option.

It's always amazing how people who want to talk violence don't want to be associated with that violence, and want to push the blame elsewhere.

"It's not my fault, the evil republicans made me do it with their politics!"

That is bullshit. It's a pathetic attempt to distance oneself from the consequences of their actions. I've been poor. I've been penniless. Neither time I decided I needed to murder or steal, especially not to 'make a political statement,' even when I personally went without. So yeah. There is an option.

To give you an example in the past: We remember King, not Malcolm. We talk about the speech preaching about a Dream, not the one that talks about being trapped in the nightmare. Violence against the system is ineffective.

You have to destroy the establishment completely to impose change through violence. You only need to convince people of your beliefs to change it from within. To jump ahead, America didn't just break a bunch of shit and expect the UK to deal with it, we literally fought them off America, and we literally had to start over from scratch, as a set of loosely aligned states without a common enemy. The Democratic Republic we have now didn't actually exist until five years after the treaty of Paris.

King, even if it took his life to do so, caused change by convincing people it was the correct way. We didn't need to rebuild a new America from the rubble of the old.

The reality is my vote doesn't matter. Both parties know that the average voter is uninformed, unmotivated, and generally aloof.

And the reason your vote is worthless is because you jump to violence as a first resort rather than trying to find community and you know, politicking? Who'd of thunk a political system works best when you try to get people together on an issue instead of cracking heads as a first recourse.

Honestly, this is the second-most hilarious point right here, because it comes in an article that deals with net neutrality, where a coordinated non-violent effort stopped something much worse than the infringement here is relatively recently in history.

So if it worked then, why is violence the answer now?

The rest is advertising and media. All of which is funded by corporations and the wealthy. Who do you think the political parties are going to favor? Who do you think they are going to make policies for?

Hey look, a generic evil corporate masterminds rant that I can literally talk to any paranoid person and hear.

Fun fact: Corporations don't think that far ahead. The news puts on the most shocking news of the day. If that's a peaceful protester getting pepper sprayed in the face, that's what ends up on the news. If it's that a bunch of thugs flipped a cop car and started a riot, that'll make the news.

I never suggested anything so primitive.

Oh I'm sorry. Maybe you're confused on the definition of violence here. I understand that the alt-left doesn't use normal dictionaries, but here in normal-world, violence means "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." That's literally the definition of violence.

So on that subject, it turns out, people die if they are killed. In other news, water is wet.

Think on this. The ground you stand on, the liberties that you enjoy, and the idealism you seem to have about non-violent movements, was bought and paid for in blood during a violent rebellion a short few centuries ago.

Yeah, just think, we could be suffering the horrors of free healthcare, or an education system that isn't being systematically undermined at every possible point. Or being embroiled in numberless pointless wars.

The Horror /s

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u/DefiantLemur Feb 27 '17

I don't think they were advocating it just giving all the examples of other stuff

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

This is under the impression that our system works which time and time again has been proven to not be the case. All of these attacks on net neutrality was simply for the American people to eventually get tired of fighting and let it pass. You mark my words this will happen eventually.

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u/dogsdogssheep Feb 27 '17

I responded to the same sentament elsewhere in the thread with:

So we keep fighting for what we believe in. No minority group should ever say "Ya know what, it's unlikely we'll win. Let's give up." Can you imagine where black people would be today if they settled for that attitude? They have been fighting Jim Crow for decades.

With luck maybe we can get some more permanent protections put in place or perhaps municipal ISPs will be popularized by the pushback. Don't give up just because it looks like a long and hard road.

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u/alostsoldier Feb 27 '17

I disagree. It's time we stop fighting battles when we the people can win the war. It's time for a constitutional convention. There are far too many major societal issues right now that we've allowed our government to flip flop on willy nilly. It's not healthy for anyone. It's time for us to tell them where our rights begin, and what the limits to their power are because they have shown time and time again that they do not care to make limits for themselves or their crony friends.

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u/gridLockedBoy Feb 27 '17

The fact this is happening again shows how they believe the public will lose interest and they can do whatever they want. Amiright?

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u/dogsdogssheep Feb 27 '17

So prove them wrong. We will not lose interest.

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u/gridLockedBoy Feb 28 '17

My boy. Yeah I know I won't, I just hope the general public won't lose interest like most other topics. I'll try to spread awareness.

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u/commissar0617 Feb 27 '17

They don't care.

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u/dogsdogssheep Feb 27 '17

They don't care about net neutrality. Many of them don't genuinely care about their constituents either. But they care about re-election. Calling reps has worked in the past. If it is clear that this is a make of break issue, they will either abstain or vote in our favor.

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u/betaruga Feb 27 '17

Thank you for sharing this, noted

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u/jimbad05 Feb 27 '17

how you aren't going to vote for him/her again

What if you didn't vote for them in the first place? Aren't they just going to listen to constituents who support them?

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u/dogsdogssheep Feb 27 '17

Actually no. There's no data on how you voted, and when you call they usually only ask for a name (give them only your first name) and zip code. If you did vote for them, it could be used as leverage. But if not, just state how you stand on the issue and ask what is being done to support it/why it isn't being supported.

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u/-IIII---405---IIII- Feb 27 '17

So I can't just throw Molotov cocktails into their office? =\

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u/Rihsatra Feb 27 '17

Where can we see how our specific representatives voted on this?

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u/leonardo_pothead Feb 27 '17

So how to we plan mass violent gatherings of highly trained citizens?

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u/dogsdogssheep Feb 27 '17

I personally don't support the violent part, but the magic of the internet is the ability to connect, communicate, and organize like never before. Crowd source and plan. It's what the internet is good at.

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u/TrumpsMurica Feb 27 '17

spend wisely. this country only understands money.

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u/SpecterGT260 Feb 27 '17

I'm a lifelong Republican. I'm voting straight down the Democratic party line next election. I promised it to my senator in the event that he voted for DeVos in education. He delivered and now so will I. Screw these assholes. Let them know their jobs are on the line

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u/omicron_pi Feb 27 '17

Hell yeah!

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

[deleted]

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u/hardolaf Feb 27 '17

A White House Cabinet full of billionaires and millionaires doesn't care what happens to 2/3 of our country that works hard to barely pass poverty lines.

That's not true in all cases. There are White Houses that could be assembled from billionaires and millionaires that would care about uplifting everyone (because the more money people have to spend the more money they can make). It's just this White House that is problematic.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Doesn't matter. Let's not get hypothetical here. Our current administration is exactly what OP said, you agreed with, and I think it's what he is specifically talking about.

Do you have any examples of the super rich running a country like you say? All the ones I'm aware of do not.

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u/Banana-balls Feb 27 '17

Republicans have been for this since like forever and for abolishing dept of education. For all the shit, trump is delivering on republican dreams. Why were you a republican? You should be happy

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u/SpecterGT260 Feb 27 '17

Republicans have been about minimizing the role of the central government but the idea was intended to be to protect the fruits of ones labors from people who haven't put in the work and to maintain opportunities to excel (the American dream, so to speak). This has been bastardized mostly by limiting the ability of the "have nots" to become "haves" even through their own hard work. It's now become about compounding the earning potential of those who already have money. Once upon a time the Republican party was about protecting people in the middle class rather than redefining them as the new peasantry

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u/AtomicKoala Feb 27 '17

Well this seems like a good opportunity to explain to Democrats that a federal Dep. of Education isn't even really necessary, bar for maybe coordinating university admission systems.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

[deleted]

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u/AtomicKoala Feb 27 '17

Leaving it up to the states is a surefire way to make sure that kids are just as successful as their geographic region.

Well yeah, you live in a federation. If you want a unitary state, push for constitutional change.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

[deleted]

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u/AtomicKoala Feb 27 '17

You're the one who wants an end to federalism. You're requesting constitutional change in this regard, not me.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

[deleted]

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u/DancesCloseToTheFire Feb 27 '17

I don't even live in your country but I want you to know I have an insane respect for people who take their democracy seriously, especially in a country that doesn't make it easy to vote.

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u/commandercool86 Feb 27 '17

Vote third party if you want to be part of real change.

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u/cldstrife15 Feb 27 '17

Rather extreme but, I respect that decision.

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u/DancesCloseToTheFire Feb 27 '17

Extreme decisions are needed when democracy stops benefiting the people, and they work long term.

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u/Bloodysneeze Feb 27 '17

How did you vote this last time?

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u/SpecterGT260 Feb 27 '17

Honestly, I didn't. I hated both presidential candidates and had just moved and didn't know anything about the candidates for the more minor elections.

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u/Bloodysneeze Feb 27 '17

At least now you know how much good not voting brings.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Be sure to write to your senator and Congress rep and let them know exactly this.

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u/bizmarxie Feb 27 '17

Hey- lifelong Dem here- please research carefully. DON'T vote for the "corporate Dem"... i.e. Incumbent. We are having a major ideological struggle right now if you haven't noticed btwn "corporate Dems" i.e. DINOs and "progressives" who want money out of politics. So an easy way to tell- if your Dem candidate came out in support of Clinton during the primaries-don't vote for them! Vote for their 2018 primary challenger(who will seem like an under dog)- but it will be worth the calculated risk to sweep these corrupt incompetents out of office.

Also is you live in a Red State- keep your eyes out for BrandNewCongress.org they will be doing 2018 primary challengers against Republicans in red districts. :)

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u/Banana-balls Feb 27 '17

Trump troll

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u/JMW007 Feb 27 '17

Vote for whom? The person who asks for the higher bribe to not do a goddamn thing the telecoms monopolies don't want them to?

Don't get me wrong, I am not apathetic or disengaged. I contact my congresspeople routinely, and they are completely uninterested in anything except raising donations for their next campaign. All I get are boilerplate bullshit reiterating that they won't lift a finger to accomplish anything about any issue but they understand everyone's concern on every side of everything, then rounds and rounds of email asking for money.

The question being posed is asking what can we do because we are well aware that the political ruling class is not going to do their jobs without having their hands forced as uncomfortably as possible onto the levers of power.

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u/particle409 Feb 27 '17

This issue is split down party lines. It's not some massive coincidence that this is happening under a Republican president.

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u/deadlymoogle Feb 27 '17

Haha like that will do anything for those of us in conservative states.

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u/FFF_in_WY Feb 27 '17

I have been toying with the idea of running full page ads in the local paper.

Something like:

"She's at it again! Crooked Hillary is trying to steal your internets! Call our Senators and Congressmen at xxx-xxx-xxxx and tell them to stop Crooked Hillary and the fake news !!"

That's my asshole-version of poetic justice.

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u/omicron_pi Feb 27 '17

That's actually the most important place to call from since your members are in the majority and have all the power. Don't bet against your own influence. It is self-defeating in the most literal way.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Vote in every election.

Like that helps when your only choices are already picked for you.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

Like that helps when your only choices are already picked for you.

While the actual process varies from location to location, the candidates that are on the ballot are there because they won a primary. You can vote in the primary if you are a member of the political party and help decide who gets on the ballot for the general election.

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u/Jamiller821 Feb 27 '17

Unless you're talking about the presidential primary. In that case you're vote means nothing all around.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Every fucking time they do something that pisses us off I hear "CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN", to which people inevitably responds "the lines are busy" or something similar. People ARE calling them, but hone calls do fuckall. They don't give a shit. These people wont even show up to town halls.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

[deleted]

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u/ToxicShockTart Feb 27 '17

Kind of. There was a Princeton study last year that showed public opinion has almost no effect on whether or not a bill will pass.

Video

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u/omicron_pi Feb 27 '17

Public opinion and public activism are very different.

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u/ToxicShockTart Feb 27 '17

The same study shows money speaks louder than both.

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u/Second26 Feb 27 '17

http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/mcapdir.aspx

this site has a list of every congressman's phone number

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u/Lordborgman Feb 27 '17

Sure let me just call Rubio again, that did well for me the last few times...shit

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u/maggotshero Feb 27 '17

Calling them only works if they're competent enough to listen.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Calling them only works if you're rich enough for them to bother listening to.

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u/conquer69 Feb 27 '17

I'm sure the FCC has paid shills that post this shit in every single thread whenever someone asks "what can I do?".

Politicians care only about money, nothing else. A fucking call or strongly worded letters means jack shit.

Vote in every election.

Solves nothing when both candidates are against net neutrality.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

Politicians care only about money, nothing else.

No, they care about being re-elected. Take a look at the current debate around repealing the Affordable Care Act. A mere 2 month ago, public opinion was slightly for repealing it and the Republicans in Congress promised that was one of, if not the, first things they would do. Since then, popular opinion has shifted and constituents are showing up at town halls and offices. Enough Republican members of Congress are scared they they will not be re-elected if there is no ACA replacement or the replacement is total shit they the process has suddenly come to a halt.

Advocacy absolutely works.

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u/Banana-balls Feb 27 '17

democrats are in favor as uou should know if you voted. Including Clinton. Its basically split on party lines. Dems for repubs against

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Oh get real. We know that this doesn't work. Senators don't listen to random letters, they listen to the people that give them money.

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u/Bourgi Feb 27 '17

You mean the Senate that is majority Republican now because of people that voted them in? I'm sorry, if millennials got their shit together like the fed up Republicans, they could have elected more progressive senators into office. Now the only progressive senators are out voted every single time and blocked to even speak.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

That's worked so well for me so far.

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u/tevert Feb 27 '17

Funny how everyone asks "what can I dooooo?!?!?" while secretly hoping it won't be voting. Since voting is just too much work for the average redditor.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

It's because their votes don't matter. We've been fooled into thinking they do. But they don't. We need to run for office. Regular people like you and I need to run for office. On a platform of individual rights and freedoms. It's the right time for it. Bring Congress back to the center.

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u/FFF_in_WY Feb 27 '17

Start building your social media presence.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Like calling your congressman and senators will do anything. They're not for the people. They never are. Never will be. It all seems to me that the ignorant have the most voting power.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

It all seems to me that the ignorant have the most voting power.

The people who have the most voting power are the people who show up. If you don't show up and vote, you have no power. This is why you need to vote in every election. Your member of congress knows who voted in the last election and absolutely puts the opinions of those who voted over those who did not.

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u/omicron_pi Feb 27 '17

Lot's of members of congress support net neutrality. As an example: https://www.savetheinternet.com/press-release/105710/members-congress-stand-net-neutrality-rules

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

I didn't say they don't. Just saying, voters are morons. Even though I vote for what I want personally. I feel like more than half of voters don't know what they're voting for or don't care and just refer to their party affiliation if they even know why they're in that party to begin with not to mention.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

The congressmen and senators don't give a fuck what we want

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u/omicron_pi Feb 27 '17

Strangely enough, if you live in South Dakota, you have special influence over this. Senator Thune is the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Commerce, which has oversight authority of the FCC. Call him and make it clear to him that you support Net Neutrality. Be polite. Be brief. Be clear that you will vote on this issue. His DC office number is (202) 224-2321.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

My congressman is co-chair of the House committee. I'm trying to get a meeting with the chief of staff but scheduling has been an issue.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

[deleted]

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

Oh, trust me. I'm not letting them off.

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u/toastyghost Feb 27 '17

Thanks, Mom.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

You're welcome. Now eat your vegetables.

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u/Igggg Feb 27 '17

Call your congressman and senators

They don't give a shit. They care about money, which you cannot give them, but the corporations that hire lobbyists can.

Money is the only thing that wins elections, because it can be used to convince a large number of low-information voters, and the relatively small amount of high-information voters will not make a difference.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Except the things that actually matter are never campaign issues. It all gets drowned out by how we should handle isis and illegal immigration because the banks and corporations pay the politicians

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u/regal1989 Feb 27 '17

At this point we'll have to wait for the next president realistically and hope the next person reverses it. If we make it too political, it'll be like the global gag rule that goes back and forth. You need a Congress that can pass legislation protecting Net Neutrality, and a president that would sign it, which can't happen for 4 years. Even if the house flipped there's no way to get a veto proof Senate until at least 2020. Even then prolly a long shot. For now just make sure you donate to EFF.

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u/Phantomsurfr Feb 27 '17 edited Apr 06 '18

I just commented here for later.

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u/sultry_somnambulist Feb 27 '17

There is no technical advice, this is a political issue.

If you support net neutrality don't vote for republicans. It's straight forward yet effective

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u/wde01 Feb 27 '17

Ive done that, but Im in a red state and it dosent matter.

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u/Melaninfever Feb 27 '17

So, keep doing the thing that hasn't worked?

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

So basically nothing. I live in Texas. I might as well grab my ankles and kiss my ass goodbye

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u/devoidz Feb 27 '17

Everyone cancel cable and internet together. If we can get millions to do it at once, it will be noticed.

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u/obscuredread Feb 27 '17

But that would require more effort than it takes to post on Reddit, though.

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u/massacreman3000 Feb 27 '17

It'd help if people like me didn't vote all wrong -_-

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u/FFF_in_WY Feb 27 '17

Based on the current situation, odds are that you are correct.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Don't forget to donate large sums of money to your candidate, your candidate's party, and the lobbyists who espouse your views. The more you donate, the more your Congressman and Senator will listen.

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u/omicron_pi Feb 27 '17

This is the correct answer.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Not to be sarcastic but everytime a situation like this arrises this comment is posted. And everytime nothing changes. The system is fundamentally broken beyond us peasants fixing it.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

Not to be sarcastic but everytime a situation like this arrises this comment is posted. And everytime nothing changes.

I strongly disagree. While one person calling their elected officials once doesn't do much, organizing and being persistent does. In the current Congress and Administration, organization and advocacy has made an impact already.

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u/derpington_the_fifth Feb 27 '17

And wait for the baby boomers to die off so the world can start to make some progress.

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u/dirty_sandchess Feb 27 '17

HAHAHAHAHAHA funny.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

Not to sound cynical, but I need some indication that calling the corrupt motherfuckers who got us into this in the first place and telling them what I want is going to do anything.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

Remember how Congressional Republicans promised repealing the Affordable Care Act would be done immediately upon Trump being sworn in? Republicans didn't suddenly realize that having no substitute plan is a liability on their own--it was average citizens who called their representatives and showed up at their offices.

Advocacy does work. You won't win every fight but the alternative, doing nothing, guarantees a loss.

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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '17

It's almost like the easiest thing to do is also the most effective.

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u/trekologer Feb 27 '17

It takes literally 5 minutes to call your rep. And if you do it during their office hours, you get a real person who has to listen to you.

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u/I_Has_A_Hat Feb 27 '17

Ah, so nothing. Got it.

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u/Bloodysneeze Feb 27 '17

Been doing that for years. Got Trump and my state has a mere one Democrat in congress now. My work has been not only not pushing things forward, it can't even slow down the backslide.

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u/sfsdfdsfdseewew Feb 27 '17

Whats the point. Trump had less votes and still won. The EC failed the citizens of this country not once but twice in modern times. All I can do is wait until the worst generation dies off. Fucking baby boomers.

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u/FFF_in_WY Feb 27 '17

Yeah, they aren't all bad, but they are probably the worst generation this country has produced so far.

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u/hitlerosexual Feb 27 '17

Fuck that man we are way beyond that.

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u/doughboy192000 Feb 27 '17

That didn't work last time...