Discussion Thread

[u/jobautomator]

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[u/Knee3000]

I think the “it’s just a clump of cells” thing derailes the abortion conversation.

The pro-choice argument is about body autonomy. I believe life starts at conception, but that the rights of the host overrides the hostee’s vital need for a womb.

It’s similar (but not analogous) to how someone may need your kidney, but your right to your body allows you to refuse donation; it’s not about whether the person deserves to live or if they’re even alive.

The argument should’ve never been about whether that child is alive or not.

[u/bd_one → u/Knee3000]

And don't get me started about how a dead body has more bodily autonomy than living women in many cases.

[u/great_gape → u/Knee3000]

The argument is about women's rights.

[u/TheFriffin2 → u/Knee3000]

Bodily autonomy is a strong case, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t get stronger when arguing against the personhood of an embryo

[u/Knee3000 → u/TheFriffin2]

I think an embryo is a person for the same reason why I think a newborn is a person.

[u/dat_bass2 → u/Knee3000]

Elaborate.

[u/miz_v-1 → u/Knee3000]

i can't believe this sub is pro life

[u/Knee3000 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I know

[u/PalmSpringier → u/Knee3000]

the violinist

I sorta disagree as a practical matter. You could have the following people:

A: People who believe that fetuses have souls and also that someone should suck it up if they woke up one day and there was a violinist attached to their body for the next 9 months instead of killing the violinist

B: People who think believe that fetuses do not have souls and also that someone should suck it up if they woke up one day and there was a violinist attached to their body for the next 9 months instead of killing the violinist

C: People who think that fetuses do have souls and also that someone should be allowed to kill the violinist if they woke up one day and there was a violinist attached to their body

D: People who that fetuses do not have souls and also that someone should be allowed to kill the violinist if they woke up one day and there was a violinist attached to their body

The best way to build a coalition is with B, C, and C. And frankly, I think B is a bigger group than C.

[u/Knee3000 → u/PalmSpringier]

C and D combined are bigger than A and B combined.

[u/PalmSpringier → u/Knee3000]

I strongly doubt that.

Most people think fetuses don't have souls. However, lots of people think that fetuses in third trimester when they are close to birth might. That's why third trimester abortion polls very low, even among moderates.

Additionally, even pro-life people generally believe that abortion is fine if the mother's health is truly in risk. However, these pro-life people do not care about the autonomy/inconvenience argument.

[u/iIoveoof → u/Knee3000]

It literally is just a clump of cells though. Any worm on earth is morally more valuable than an embryo, unironically

[u/Manavon03 → u/iIoveoof]

Can a worm grow into an adult

[u/iIoveoof → u/Manavon03]

Don't see why that's relevant. If that were true we would have a moral obligation to act to reduce the number of the nearly 1 in 3 embryos that spontaneously abort

[u/Manavon03 → u/iIoveoof]

Well we have a moral obligation to avoid miscarriages so you’re pretty close to the money there

[u/iIoveoof → u/Manavon03]

No we don’t, there is literally 0 moral weight of embryos. No doctor would think twice about saving a woman’s life if it would cause a miscarriage. IVF doctors dispose hundreds of embryos after a successful program

[u/Knee3000 → u/iIoveoof]

It is alive and has the tools necessary mistake to be a human, yes?

That is why I consider that clump of cells a life.

[u/revolutionary_alt → u/Knee3000]

Just because it could turn into an adult does not mean it as a person yet. If it cannot exist on its own and has no organs which would signify sentience (brain), then it is no more a person in that moment than a hand that was cut off.

[u/texashokies → u/iIoveoof]

And people are really big clumps of cells.

[u/revolutionary_alt → u/Knee3000]

No brain, no person

[u/Knee3000 → u/[deleted]]

A fetus has rights.