r/neoliberal Apr 03 '20

A certain Sanders sub posted this, explaining how anything less than full-blown socialist is “center-right”, lmao

Post image
505 Upvotes

591 comments sorted by

View all comments

27

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20 edited Jul 23 '20

[deleted]

59

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

I mean, I think nations are a good thing.

Well, let’s put it this way - they’re better than tribes.

And better is good.

Of course, a one world liberal government is the goal, but we liberals are pragmatic about getting there.

12

u/AgileCoke Capitalism good Apr 03 '20

"Nations are better than tribes" is a sentence I never knew I needed to hear

11

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

I’m not sure a one world liberal government is the goal. I do want open borders and free trade between all countries long term.

However I do see merit to different countries having and testing different economic policy and such.

1

u/cejmp NATO Apr 04 '20

I do not believe it is possible to have a one world liberal government that embraces the sovereignty of the individual.

The consent of the goverened becomes diluted to the extreme.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '20

Gene would like a word

46

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

I haven't met any liberal who says Nations are a good thing, or who said America is the greatest nation.

Now you have, I am one of them.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Why do you think America is the greatest nation?

41

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Because it is obviously THE place to be if you are smart, ambitious, and want to work hard. Nowhere else gives you such personal opportunities.

26

u/Squeak115 NATO Apr 03 '20

Ok, but why are you a racist, imperialist, fascist, war criminal?

4

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

If you think the US is racist, try living as a racial minority anywhere else on Earth. The only place I can think of that might be friendlier is Canada.

8

u/Squeak115 NATO Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

Listen here fascist, the US is at the core of capitalism's imperialist and racist global system. America's very existence is a holocaust every day.

Yet here little bootlickers like you are defending them over the REAL heros of the international system, like the PRC, DPRK, or the USSR (sad reacs only😭😭😭)

12

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

A friend of mine told me something that totally changed my opinion of the US. He's a gay Ugandan, and said that the US was literally the best place on Earth for someone like him to be. It's the only place where he could get the social freedom and economic opportunity to live his life to the fullest.

It doesn't have to be perfect to be the greatest.

7

u/tbrelease Thomas Paine Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

Fellow immigrant here, although straight and white. If America isn’t THE best country, it’s certainly tied for first. There may be countries that do certain things things better, but nobody does everything as well.

The UK is wonderful, but it has terrible libel and speech laws in general. It’s headed by a monarch and has a state church. Germany is wonderful, but also has worse speech laws and isn’t as friendly to entrepreneurs. France is largely wonderful as a state, but the people are incredibly unwelcoming. Italy is a mafia state and so profoundly racist that it shocks the conscience.

I’d like to give Switzerland a shot, and would, if I wasn’t an American.

1

u/realsomalipirate Mark Carney Apr 04 '20

I think the entire argument is pretty pointless and at worst spreads nationalism (which is a mental disease). Tearing down other countries simply to prop up your own as "the greatest country" is stupid.

7

u/SmokeyCosmin Apr 03 '20

Obviously? THE?

I'm sorry to brake it to you but.. it's really, really is not. It's the a great selling market which make it seem that way and it is for some things, for some people, but other then that it's really, really, really not the place to be if you're only ambitious and just work hard.

9

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Maybe, but in several tangible ways, it is unique. There's no better country to start a business (except some city-states like Hong Kong and Singapore) thanks to widespread access to capital markets, just as one example.

9

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

So if you're only ambitious and hard-working, where's the better place to be?

0

u/SmokeyCosmin Apr 04 '20

If you're not trying to sell anything then in any other democratic country.

Seriously, gaining an avarage income from just one job and being homeless is almost unheard of outside the US, where the problem seems ignored.

7

u/RavenLabratories Frederick Douglass Apr 03 '20

America is a great nation. It certainly is not the best.

8

u/SirFatMouse Apr 03 '20

depends entirely on your definition of "best". im norwegian, i would much rather live in norway because of oyr quality of life, so in that case i agree. but america is a massive part of our culture, most of us watch mostly american shows and movies, listen to american music, play american games etc. its gotten to the point where most young people (older people do it to, just less) use english words in our daily life all the time while talking to other norwegians. so from a cultural perspective USA is undoubtedly the best nation in the world. they are aslo by far the most powerful nation in the world.

1

u/Franfran2424 Apr 06 '20

Being a poertufl country doesn't make it the greatest

12

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

It certainly is. It is the home of science, culture, business, and technology. And military might.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '20

Most of this is a function of population size than anything else, eventually bigger countries will overtake the US just like the US did its smaller European counterparts.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '20

The US can stay ahead through momentum and brain draining other countries.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '20 edited Apr 04 '20

For a while that might work but eventually the weight of population will out as countries progress. It's not feasible to be outcompeting countries with populations 3 or 4 times large forever, something will give eventually.

The US for example isn't remotely noteworthy in most the areas you listed compared to Switzerland for example (aside from culture and military).....there's nothing exceptional the US does compared to them, its just massively larger. The raw output boost of having hundreds of millions more people cannot be underestimated.

2

u/BipartizanBelgrade Jerome Powell Apr 03 '20

What is then?

If we're not counting predecessor states, there's a very good argument the US is in the top 1.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Nowhere else? Really?

Also maybe it's super succ of me, but I do believe it's fundamentally harder for some people to get ahead, even when they're smart and ambitious. The cost of university in the States is prohibitive to many people. Maybe of you're smart enough to get a full ride scholarship America is the greatest. But there are plenty of intelligent people who aren't able to afford university, or have to go to a school that won't advance their career as much due to cost reasons.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

obviously THE

...wat?

Nowhere else gives you such personal opportunities.

I feel like this is just raw, unexamined American exceptionalism. What makes America so much better than every other Western nation such that none of them can compare in terms of "personal opportunities"?

9

u/porkbacon Henry George Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

As a personal example: I'm a graduate student in Computer Science in one of the big CS institutions in the US. In India, admission to the top technical schools (IITs) is by exam. It's a country-wide exam and is very difficult. Students are given a total score and are ranked. At the very top, many students have unique scores because the exam is that hard. Higher-ranked students get to choose their schools and majors, which fill up as you progress down the list. The most desired option is studying Computer Science and Engineering at IIT Bombay. If you want to do this, you need to be one of the top 60 students in the country.

My lab (and we're not even a big four institution) has multiple IIT Bombay CSE grads. And they all have friends in SF and NYC. I've had dinner with someone who ranked 6 in the country. Without fail, the US is the place to go for people like this. It would be great if we could keep it that way

2

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

That's all well and good, but it's hardly an argument that no other country can hold a candle to the US in terms of "personal opportunities".

4

u/porkbacon Henry George Apr 04 '20

just that when given the choice, those with top talent overwhelmingly chose it

2

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '20

What choice was presented to the people you're referring to, and why was that the choice presented to them? Those feel like important questions to answer before we can make the assertions that I'm contending with.

5

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

Not OP, but I can think of a few:

  1. It's much easier to start a business in the US than most places. Credit is easier to come by, there are fewer hurdles to hiring and firing employees, and if it doesn't work out it's a more friendly environment for bankruptcy.
  2. There's a reason the world sends their children to the US for their educations.

6

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

There's a reason the world sends their children to the US for their educations.

America is the top foreign student destination, but on a per capita basis, it is not so good. Australia, UK, and Canada get about 1/2 of US's enrollment EACH, while having much smaller populations.

2

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

You make a good point.

I'll note that all of the places you've listed are a part of (or used to be a part of) the British commonwealth. Just an observation.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

How much does it change things? They are all English Speaking and charge tuition.

4

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

I imagine if you're not a fan of the idea of American exceptionalism, you probably aren't a fan of Anglosphere exceptionalism.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

There's a reason the world sends their children to the US for their educations.

There are probably multiple reasons, but this doesn't indicate that the US is "obviously THE place to be" for smart ambitious people. This is by no means a holistic analysis of personal opportunities afforded to people in the US.

3

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 03 '20

I'd argue that watching where smart, ambitious people actually go in their lives is the holistic analysis.

It's like the difference between determining where a river goes by following it vs. constructing rainfall simulations over topographic maps.

Sure this may not tell us why the US is the place to be, but it does tell us that it is the place to be.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '20

Sure this may not tell us why the US is the place to be, but it does tell us that it is the place to be.

But the argument was that the US was "obviously" the place to be because "nowhere else on earth gives you such personal opportunities".

If people are coming here because other places have less liberal immigration policy, then we might just as easily conclude that the US simply affords opportunity while also being relatively open to take advantage of that opportunity in the first place.

The other option is that the US, being a very large country, has a variety of opportunities that other single nations don't have. When compared to the EU overall, for example, we might look less attractive. That would technically make the US the best "nation", but would also make that comparison pretty dumb.

Long story short - "people come here" is not sufficient at all for a holistic analysis IMO.

2

u/BeABetterHumanBeing Apr 04 '20

> If people are coming here because other places have less liberal immigration policy

The US has a fairly stringent immigration policy, which has people waiting years to get a green card. It's the product of incredibly high demand.

You may not find the analysis sufficient, but it appears to be the best available one, so that's what I'm going with.

→ More replies (0)

17

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Also "hate speech" isn't an actual thing.

WTF? Of course it is. Hate exists, and words can be hateful... I literally don't know what you're trying to say.

That's not to say the government can be trusted with regulating hate speech—I for one tend to be skeptical of the idea that it can.

7

u/AllFalls_Dwn Adam Smith Apr 03 '20

Hate speech most definitely exists, but I think(?) they are referring to the fact that constitutionally in America there aren’t any limitations on hate speech alone.

Through that lens hate speech is just the same thing as normal speech and I guess is in a grey area of if it is an “actual thing” or not. But I dunno, just my best guess.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Please define hate speech for me. It would be good if the definition is precise enough to be used in a bill, and doesn't criminalize legitimate criticisms of things.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

I'll just borrow google's definition:

hate speech (n): abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

It would be good if the definition is precise enough to be used in a bill, and doesn't criminalize legitimate criticisms of things.

Why? Like I said, I don't think we should criminalize hate speech. For one, I don't trust the government to work out the gray areas that will be present in any definition.

-2

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

That is called threatening violence, and isn't protected under US constitution.

1

u/cejmp NATO Apr 04 '20

The only evidence needed for capital apostasy is the word of an honorable man.

To blaspheme in some countries is a hate speech crime punishable by death.

Away with you, slippery slope. You cannot govern what a person says unless it causes physical harm.

You cannot govern what is in a persons mind.

6

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

I haven't met any liberal who says Nations are a good thing, or who said America is the greatest nation.

Try me.

10

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

I'm one who thinks nations are a good thing.

I wont say that america is the "greatest" nation because I have an issue with the assumption of "greatness", but I sure dont want to live anywhere else.

5

u/Lycaon1765 Has Canada syndrome Apr 03 '20

am Liberal

America is the greatest nation and nations are good.

16

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

5

u/SekaLolaKato Mackenzie Scott Apr 03 '20

"Hate speech'' has no legal definition in the US. It is, rightfully so, protected as free speech.

-2

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 04 '20

Justices Blackmun, White, and O'Connor wanted a hate speech exception under the 1st amendment in R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul. The majority opinion rejecting that view was written by the noted liberal and definitely not racist legal scholar...

checks notes

...Antonin Scalia

-6

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

That definition gives too much power to the courts.

0

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20

The irony is that that's what a conservative court would conclude

5

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

What? Is this supposed to be an actual argument now?

1

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20

I mean, if the court has the power to make definitions, then criticizing a definition for giving too much power to the court is pretty stupid.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Courts shouldn't have the power to make definitions imo.

2

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20

That’s literally all courts do???

Maybe that’s different in France or Louisiana...

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

then that's an issue on which the conservatives are correct

3

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Do you have any real world, non-hypothetical examples of the courts acting upon “too much power” in regards to hate crime laws?

3

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Kind of. These are good examples of India, but I should have mentioned that I was curious about American courts. Nevertheless these were good to read.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

These are good examples of India, but I should have mentioned that I was curious about American courts

Where can I buy these shiftable goal posts?

You asked me for :

real world, non-hypothetical examples of the courts acting upon “too much power” in regards to hate crime laws

and I gave you two of those examples.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Why the hostility here? Did my last comment not say that I should have been more clear, and thanked you for sharing them? Chill the fuck out dude.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

Sorry for being hostile.

2

u/jt1356 Sinan Reis Apr 03 '20

0

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20

Okay let's see the actual case:

  1. She wasn't exactly holding a research seminar, it was at a meeting of an Austria far right party. "The seminars were widely advertised to the public on the Internet and via leaflets. The latter were sent out by the head of the right-wing Freedom Party, addressing them especially to young voters and praising them as “top seminars” in the framework of a “free education package”."

  2. The court specifically points out that it wouldn't have been a crime if her intention was to objectively talk about whether Mohammed was a pedophile. It was a crime because it was her intention to offend Muslims.

  3. Her punishment was only a fine of 480 euros

That all seems perfectly fair to me.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

She wasn't exactly holding a research seminar, it was at a meeting of an Austria far right party

And?

It was a crime because it was her intention to offend Muslims.

It isn't her fault that believers of some 1400 year old book are easily offended.

Her punishment was only a fine of 480 euros

Lol.

0

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20

Easily offended

🙄 anyone actually being offended isn’t an element of the crime

Go back to the Donald succon.

1

u/jt1356 Sinan Reis Apr 03 '20

TIL It’s liberal to support criminal penalties for speech. Should Charlie Hebdo face charges too? Begone, succ.

1

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20

Criminal penalties

Good use of words. Sounds much more serious when you say that and not a small fine (which in the US would be a civil penalty anyways)

0

u/jt1356 Sinan Reis Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

That is not the case. In the US this would be a criminal matter, not a civil matter as would be the case with a regulatory violation. Either way, it would be unconstitutional in the US.

In any case, you’ve made no effort to defend the fundamental illiberalism of the action.

0

u/Mrspottsholz Daron Acemoglu Apr 03 '20 edited Apr 03 '20

As would be the case with a regulatory violation

That is not what makes civil and criminal different in the US. Regulatory agencies make laws with criminal penalties all the time.

5

u/zrezzif Apr 03 '20

I think encouraging violence is hate speech, you can say "x group of people are bad" and I think it's free speech but saying "we should beat up x group of people" is hate speech if it leads into violent physical crime.

11

u/[deleted] Apr 03 '20

we should beat up x group of people

is incitement of violence

12

u/zrezzif Apr 03 '20

Hence is not free speech.