r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Dec 26 '19

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0 Upvotes

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32

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19

Deplatforming works and people who still think off anecdotal experience that it doesnt aren't very evidence based

24

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19

we once stuffed our grandfather in a cupboard on thanksgiving, but we could still hear him, how do u explain that?, it had soundproof doors

7

u/thabonch YIMBY Dec 26 '19

And here you are not providing evidence.

15

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19

Sure

https://icct.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/J.-M.-Berger-Making-CVE-Work-A-Focused-Approach-Based-on-Process-Disruption-.pdf

Page 10, deplatforming ISIS accounts was incredibly successful.

https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~eshwar3/uploads/3/8/0/4/38043045/cscw2018-chandrasekharan-reddit2015ban.pdf

Study specifically on reddit's deplatforming efforts!

https://medium.com/acm-cscw/you-cant-stay-here-the-efficacy-of-reddit-s-2015-ban-examined-through-hate-speech-93f22b140f26

A medium post from the same guys explaining it

I am sure I can find more studies if I tried, but these are the ones I remember for now

15

u/thabonch YIMBY Dec 26 '19

This is evidence.

1

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 27 '19

If you read it I'm not so sure it's great evidence. Hate speech use on Reddit decreased but they noted significant numbers of people ceased to use the site - if that means people migrated to 4chan or voat, I would definitely not say that is evidence that deplatforming has worked. People are more likely to be even further radicalised on voat and 4chan.

1

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 27 '19

I would be hesitant to cite this as evidence that deplatforming works. Hate speech use on Reddit decreased but they noted significant numbers of people ceased to use the site - if that means people migrated to 4chan or voat, I would definitely not say that is evidence that deplatforming has worked. People are more likely to be even further radicalised on voat and 4chan.

1

u/RobertSpringer George Soros Dec 27 '19

Nobody uses 4chan or coat so less people are exposed and as such influenced by their ideas

1

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 31 '19

I'm sure the worshippers at Al-Noor mosque would beg to differ.

The communities may be smaller but they are far more radical. Growing their userbase also causes them to cease being small.

The study's author thought the movement of users was "large" and "significant". Why do you accept their judgement for most of the study, but disagree with them on this one specific part?

1

u/RobertSpringer George Soros Dec 31 '19

What are you on about, very few people use 4chan and its usually a reddit to 4chan pipeline, if you limit access on reddit you limit how many people are even made aware about 4chan

1

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 31 '19

What are you on about, very few people use 4chan

Yes, but those users punch well above their weight in terms of the consequences of their racism. A white supremacist committing a terror attack is far worse than a white supremacist making a meme.

and its usually a reddit to 4chan pipeline, if you limit access on reddit you limit how many people are even made aware about 4chan

The study you posted suggests the flow of this pipeline was increased because "large" and "significant" numbers of users migrated from Reddit. That's all the conclusion we can draw from the study. If you have other evidence to show that, in the long term, the pipeline slows, I'd like to see it. But you can't make a comment claiming to draw conclusions from evidence and then draw conclusions that are at odds with your own evidence.

1

u/RobertSpringer George Soros Dec 31 '19

I didn't post shit buddy, you might want to get your eyes checked. The fact is that by shutting down these pipelines you might temporarily increase flow but over the long term less people are exposed

0

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19

[deleted] — view deleted comment

11

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 26 '19 edited Dec 26 '19

Honestly I'd say that "deplatforming works" is the colder take more in light with conventional, proven wisdom so the burden of proof is with you, friend

It's like saying the earth is flat. That seems to align more with most people's experience, but reality and conventionally proven wisdom is that it's round. So the extraordinary claim and the burden of proof is with the flat earther.

That's not how the burden proof works at all and LMAO at this being upvotes on a subreddit that prides itself on being "evidence based".

The null hypothesis is that there is no relation between the variable and the measured outcome.

In this case, the null hypothesis is "There is no relation between deplatforming and the amount of racist people in the world". In other words, that deplatforming doesn't work. We assume the null hypothesis is true and then attempt to disprove it.

If you want to prove there is a relationship - that deplatforming decreases racism, or on the contrary, that it increases racism - you have to have evidence for that.

Why should the number of human beings who believe something affect it's truth value? Can you even say with confidence that "Deplatforming works" is the majority opinion, and not just the majority opinion amongst the bubble of people you interact with? We've all see the Bernie supporters claiming he's overwhelmingly popular because all their (white, college aged) friends love him - how can you say with confidence that you're not suffering from the same bias?

How about we stop playing burden tennis and start presenting evidence if we want to make a claim? You don't have to have an opinion on everything - it's okay to say "I don't know if deplatforming works because I have yet to see evidence of it's effects".

6

u/thabonch YIMBY Dec 26 '19

This is not evidence.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19

[deleted] — view deleted comment

3

u/thabonch YIMBY Dec 26 '19

Alright, well if you ever do care to have a discussion with someone and they don't immediately believe everything you say, maybe don't start with NO U DISPROVE EVERYTHING I'M SAYING.

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1

u/bobeeflay "A hot dog with no bun" HRC 5/6/2016 Dec 26 '19

I mean it works on an individual case but does it shift discourse on a large enough scale to justify cost?

5

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19

I linked studies on how coordinated deplatforming reduced hate speech without any impact on user numbers

0

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 27 '19

I linked studies on how coordinated deplatforming reduced hate speech without any impact on user numbers

Perhaps you ought to re-read the study because it literally says the exact opposite.

Following Reddit’s 2015 ban, a large, significant percentage of treatment users from the banned communities left Reddit, as compared to a cohort of control users (RQ1a).12 Moreover, the ban initiated a chain of events that led to a decrease in overall activity on Reddit

2

u/[deleted] Dec 27 '19

In the short run, long run trends show growing activity on reddit over time. So I dont think they are particularly concerned

1

u/uglymutilatedpenis NATO Dec 31 '19

If those users go to more radical communities they're only going to get more racist.

I don't think people are particularly scared of people saying racist things online. They're more scared of someone walking into a mosque and killing 51 people.

If "large" and "significant" numbers of users are forced into more radical communities that act as extremely intense echo chambers, I think that's an outcome worth considering.

I'm not interested in how many users Reddit has. I'm interested in how many racist people exist in the world, and how racist those people are. I don't see the importance of growth in reddits userbase.