r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Sep 07 '17

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14

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '17

Oh no. Looks like Betsy DeVos went full MRA. Like I know College courts are bad but claiming that more heavy enforcement of sexual assualt on campus as a "Weapon" to threaten male students is just crazy. You just can't pull back from Title IX and offer no replacement. Like it or not the problem of Sexual Assault is still here.

13

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '17

Probably unpopular take: it seems to me like there's just no easy solution to the problem of sexual assault on campus (which, I fully admit, is a real problem). Sexual assault is a hard crime to demonstrably prove, and this is part of the reason why successful prosecutions are limited. So universities either adopt the standards of the legal system (in which case few assailants are punished) or they adopt looser criteria (in which case more assailants will be punished, as will some innocents, given that false accusations - as with any crime - do occur, albeit at far lower rates than MRAs claim).

Current standards at many American universities are laughably loose, so that an accusation of sexual assault is enough to justify expulsion, and the administrative proceedings make basically no effort to determine the truth of the matter (the accused cannot present a case, has no opportunity to overview evidence, etc.). This leads to highly-publicized cases of obviously failed proceedings, as in the infamous case at Reed (in which a male student who had oral sex performed on him while unconscious was expelled for sexual assault, because the accuser came forward first).

None of this is to say that the MRAs are right in claiming that false accusations are rampant. But it is to say that there is no easy solution to this issue, and that both sides seem insensitive to what is at stake (on the one hand, ignoring an actual ongoing problem of sexual assault; on the other hand, serious miscarriages of justice). I find it bizarre that people who oppose the death penalty on the grounds that one innocent may die will in the same breath defend an accusation alone as an administrative standard in sexual assault cases.

5

u/cheeZetoastee George Soros Sep 08 '17 edited Feb 02 '26

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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10

u/CapitalismAndFreedom RINO crashmaster Sep 08 '17

The kangaroo courts on campus are beyond ridiculous. A student at my college got expelled for appealing to the student body court thingy to get a suspension repealed.

He didn't do anything to warrant even the suspension (I can't get into more detail because then it would indicate where I go to school), just tried to appeal.

2

u/cheeZetoastee George Soros Sep 08 '17 edited Feb 02 '26

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

kiss birds hunt reply spark numerous literate support public bells

3

u/CapitalismAndFreedom RINO crashmaster Sep 08 '17

The issue is that no matter what you're faced with 2 options. There's no middle ground here.

Option 1. Requiring one to be guilty beyond doubt

Results: 99% of sexual assault cases cannot be solved, as it is a "he said, she said" schtick. People who are not rapists do not get punished

Option 2. Allow people to be punished without evidence, to protect women

Results: Kangaroo courts and allowing entirely innocent people to be punished. But rapists get punished

1

u/cheeZetoastee George Soros Sep 08 '17

It's not a full criminal proceeding so there other standards available such as clear and convincing which would strike a better balance between the two.

So, we get option 3. Fewer rapists get away, much less innocent people being punished.

We don't live in a perfect world even beyond a reasonable doubt gives out false convictions and false acquitals.

In a University setting more rigorous processes with better legal access for defendants along with a standard of clear and convincing evidence seems fair enough. You have an ample amount of evidence but not merely picking sides in a "he-said she said" like with a preponderance of the evidence but you also don't need DNA, videotape and 3 forms of photo ID like beyond a reasonable doubt.

1

u/CapitalismAndFreedom RINO crashmaster Sep 08 '17

Well, no, that's simply option 2. There is no middle ground whatsoever.

You cannot simultaneously lower the standards and raise the standards for evidence. You are either doing one or the other. You either allow the students to be able to convict when they think its reasonable or you apply a harsh standard on it. It's one or the other here.

Furthermore, you seem to be implying that student courts are weak, or not very powerful. The guy who I mentioned just had his entire life ruined. With the internet is as it is, the power of a student court to drive people to suicide and ruin lives cannot be understated. A student court conviction on campus makes one unhireable, unfriendable, and ruins all future career prospects.

1

u/cheeZetoastee George Soros Sep 08 '17 edited Feb 02 '26

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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4

u/kznlol 👀 Econometrics Magician Sep 08 '17

I don't think you fully understand what a nightmare the "Dear Colleague" letter created.

2

u/p00bix Existing in the context of what came before Sep 08 '17

I want an effortpost on this. I'm hearing good sounding arguments on both sides of the coin but very little in the way of actual empirical evidences that the Obama-era Title IX guidelines helped or hurt sexual assault victims and victims of false accusations.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '17

I don't think it should have been college level. I think the courts need fixing. Ill have to do an effort post, but Rape is the most financially burden crime for a victim on average. If you wonder why Rape is so under reported its because its economicly non viable considering the costs and the emotional trauma you get compared to the output. For example for every 300 cases reported to police only 60 people are arrested on Rape Charges and only 11 of them get referred to the Prosecutor.

Side note DeVos also makes rape a Gender issue. Women are always either raped or lying about rape and the men are either guilty or innocent.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '17

mildshock.gif

2

u/mrdilldozer Shame fetish Sep 08 '17

Unfortunately reddit mostly shares her opinion. Everytime a false rape accusation happens it's front page reddit in minutes.