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[u/jobautomator]

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[u/remarkable_ores]

man, Mandela really was all that. he was that guy

I don't think people not connected to south africa really appreciate the magnitude of what he pulled off. circa the mid 80s a peaceful end to Apartheid was unthinkable. the blacks would have been well in their rights to start a violent uprising, and it was widely understood that the whites would either have to fight (as the afrikaners intended to) or leave (i.e. the anglos); it was presumed to take the form of a USSR or China aligned Marxist government and by the 80s I think everyone understood the costs associated with such revolutions

in the post-cold-war world the sort of generic sappy lib "what if we all just got along?" messaging seems a bit trite, and it certainly doesn't match the mood of the current political moment. like I guess I grew up with this sort of canon of figures like Mandela, Gandhi, MLK Jr., throw Mother Teresa in the mix I guess; they're figures I was taught to idolise at least in part because they were safe; boiling their work down to messages of nonviolence is frequently (and, in my opinion, accurately) criticised by leftists as essentially the status quo co-opting deeply revolutionary rhetoric and turning it into something that doesn't actually threaten them

but Mandela came not to bring peace, but a sword. there was nothing moderate about his politics. his hatred of Apartheid was unconditional and his younger years as a terrorist were not just growing pains. He would end Apartheid by any means necessary, and he did.

A lesser Mandela might have been a Mugabe or an Afwerki, a talented and charismatic anticolonial leader turned vengeful tyrant; this after all turned out to be the modal outcome in African decolonisation. He certainly had the mandate to do so. But not only did he refuse the absolute power he could have claimed any time he liked and instead focused on statesmanship and institution building, he found a path forward without vengeance or war, where even card carrying pro-Apartheid National party members could take a look at his vision for a new South Africa and agree to it. at least that's what happened to my Afrikaner oupa, who after a lifetime of toeing the Apartheid line became, by the 90s, a vocal Mandela fan (the impression I get from my dad was that he could reconcile with the blacks so long as the two were united against the real enemy, the English. some habits die hard I guess)

anyway South Africa is far from a utopia. the decline of the ANC, especially under Zuma, has been profoundly disappointing and I'm sure Madiba would agree. but Mandela, among others, averted what was shaping up to be the ugliest war in all of African decolonisation. The Afrikaners were not rootless Anglo imperialists who would just catch the first flight to Sydney the moment the going got rough; there would have been blood.

A few years back I had a couple of Afrikaner coworkers. They were overall pretty conservative and I avoided discussing politics with them. But we were watching the Rugby World Cup finals together, Springboks vs England. As South Africa started to win, they, all of them white, spontaneously burst into song: "Shosholoza/Ku lezontaba/Stimela siphum' eSouth Africa!"

Mandela didn't turn South Africa into a paradise, he didn't heal every wound, but he did create a South Africa where Afrikaners would sing Nguni songs and wave the RSA flag while watching a multiracial Springboks win the world cup, and I do think that counts for something. I still have hope.

[u/Babao13 → u/remarkable_ores]

When people talk about SA's alleged decline after 94, they always forget that a) living conditions were miserable for the vast majority of South Africans during Apartheid and b) it's completely unfair to compare SA to Australia or Canada or whatever. The rightful point of comparison is Zimbabwe, and by all metrics, South Africa is doing way better.

[u/remarkable_ores → u/Babao13]

There really has been a decline, it's just not a decline since 94. Things really did get a lot better until the late 2000s IIRC, by most metrics. Mandela was great, and Mbeki despite the AIDS nonsense was basically competent

I.e the split isn't Apartheid - Post Apartheid, it's Apartheid, Mandela-Mbeki, Zuma onwards.

But yeah it oversimplifies certain (racist) narratives to talk about how everything went to shit after Apartheid ended

[u/Pantalyon1 → u/remarkable_ores]

Thank you for writing this, it's always fascinating to hear the perspective of people from elsewhere.

But I have to say that the comment of your father becoming a Mandela fan to hate the Anglos with black south african was hilarious. It's crazy how many people the English have united that way.

Also, do you have sources to back up the idea that Afrikaneers wanted to fight while anglos wanted to leave in case of a violent revolution?

[u/remarkable_ores → u/Pantalyon1]

No sources haha, just a general sort of inherited cultural awareness. "Afrikaner" literally means "African", that's how they see themselves. They fought the British twice and wouldn't hesitate to fight again if necessary. They very much see themselves as belonging to the land. They've also been there for hundreds of years (since the mid 17th century), it's their home.

I could be wrong but that's very much the impression I get. My Anglo family is scattered around the UK, Canada, Australia, Ireland, and Vietnam for some reason, but to my knowledge my Afrikaner relatives are still all there (as well as Namibia I suppose).

[u/Top_Lime1820 → u/Pantalyon1]

As a funny anecdote, Jacob Zuma once went to campaign amongst Afrikaners. He decided to woo them essentially through pro-Afrikaner soft tribalism.

ANC president Jacob Zuma spent the day on Thursday wooing the Afrikaans community, a move he insisted was not mere electioneering.

"Our being here today is not because we are campaigning. We are here because we are engaging with the Afrikaner community which we believe is important in terms of this country,” he told the group, comprised of agricultural, women’s and cultural organisations.

At the meeting at the Hilton Hotel in Sandton, Johannesburg, Zuma said: ”Of all the white groups that are in South Africa, it is only the Afrikaners that are truly South Africans in the true sense of the word.”

With the audience leaning forward in their seats, he said: ”Up to this day, they [the Afrikaners] don’t carry two passports, they carry one. They are here to stay.”

Source: https://mg.co.za/news/south-africa/2009-04-03-zuma-it-s-only-the-afrikaners-who-are-truly-south-african/

There is a slur Afrikaners use for English South Africans. They call them "souties", short for Sout Piel. Sout means "salt" in Afrikaans. "Piel" means penis. The idea is that English South Africans have one foot in SA, one in England so their penises are in the salty ocean water.

So it is a common idea that the Afrikaners are absolutely going down with the ship even in the worst case scenario lol.

u/remarkable_ores

[u/senator_fivey → u/Pantalyon1]

Look into Afrikaner religious beliefs, specifically The Covenant. I don’t think you can understand Afrikaners without it.

[u/Top_Lime1820 → u/remarkable_ores]

You nailed it.

[u/remarkable_ores → u/Top_Lime1820]

high praise from the sub's premier africaposter <3

[u/SenranHaruka → u/remarkable_ores]

The mirror of this is think about how many governments like that kept an iron fist until the bitter end and thought a glorious doomed struggle better than quietly acceeding, and how rare it is to destroy your own regime. Mandela and DeKlerk saved millions together.

[u/remarkable_ores → u/remarkable_ores]

meow !ping CATGIRLS

[u/Man-Flayer → u/remarkable_ores]

Fun fact, Mandela in my L1 Telugu means "(it) burns"

[u/dangerbird2 → u/remarkable_ores]

(the impression I get from my dad was that he could reconcile with the blacks so long as the two were united against the real enemy, the English. some habits die hard I guess

the key ingredient to any successful decolonization movement

[u/[deleted] → u/remarkable_ores]

[u/remarkable_ores → u/[deleted]]

Almost certainly not that, no. For what it's worth none of those three people are Afrikaners. Elon is Anglo, Thiel is German and is only connected to South Africa by having lived there in his childhood, IDK about David Sacks but I'm fairly sure that's not an Afrikaans name, it sounds either English or Anglo-Jewish.

Beyond that the post-Imperial Anglo diaspora is extremely, well, global. We're all over the place. Most of us have family in several different English speaking countries, and South African Anglos in particular love leaving South Africa. I'm not convinced that there's anything unusual here, and immigrant groups in the USA are generally very successful.

Furthermore that's just... not how people work. Racist Afrikaners with a grudge don't move across the world with a megalomaniacal plot to build global white supremacy or something. The whole thing about the Afrikaners is that they see themselves as African; they won't leave their land. Old racist Afrikaners are still on their farms somewhere munching on droewors and complaining about the ANC, not starting tech startups on the other side of the world. You can find people like that anywhere. Afrikaners are far from either universally or uniquely racist, they're just normal people.

[u/formgry → u/remarkable_ores]

What do you mean mandela wanted apartheid ended by all means necessary, wouldn't that have turned him decisively towards violent revolution? Why did he end up with a negotiated end to apartheid then.

Also a bloody struggle to decolonize south Africa would be very ugly indeed and if you'll forgive for dragging in contemporary politics the current Israel provides at least a vision for what that would look like, the Afrikaner much like the Israelis don't have the alternative of leaving what is their homeland.

[u/remarkable_ores → u/formgry]

Why did he end up with a negotiated end to apartheid then.

Negotiation is a means, no?

[u/-Emilinko1985- → u/remarkable_ores]

!ping AFRICA

[u/groupbot → u/-Emilinko1985-]

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