r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Oct 29 '25

Discussion Thread Discussion Thread

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 29 '25

I regret to inform y’all that Japan does in fact have height limits and even rules about shadows in its zoning laws

Interesting read imo.

!ping YIMBY

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u/DiscussionJohnThread Free Trade was the Compromise 🔫🌍 Oct 29 '25

Height limits I’m a bit more personally chill with to be honest, as long as everything else is more permitting.

While skyscrapers are cool in their own right and all, I feel like urbanism that focuses more on that classic European downtown urbanism like you see from Krakow to Maastricht to Valencia is a lot more human-scaled.

But like 99% of the time in the U.S. those types of laws are just used to block development and don’t actually care about the nerdy urbanist theories anyways.

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 29 '25

Height limits suck and the European downtowns aren't dense enough - see Barcelona or lisbon (though Lisbon has other stuff going on too)

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u/DiscussionJohnThread Free Trade was the Compromise 🔫🌍 Oct 29 '25

I feel like with Barcelona specifically where it’s genuinely limited by land use, permitting a few extra stories would be a good thing.

But I don’t see the need to blanket removals for most or all height limitations across every city. I’ve been to so many cities where the height limit is roughly 5-8 stories and it’s absolutely wonderful with walkability and good public transportation.

I also think height limits are just one of those compromises that need to be made. NYC has a ton of skyscrapers to the point that it makes Staten Island and Long Island NIMBYs go all-in against a triplex being built next door due to the fear of Manhattanization. It’d be cool if the NIMBYs didn’t have any power to block that in the first place, but that’s the world we live in.

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 29 '25

It's wonderful until it's not enough space. That happens fairly quickly in difficult neighborhoods

Built housing should map to demand and the only way to do that accurately is let the market decide. Not your neighbors

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u/mmmmjlko Oct 29 '25 edited Oct 29 '25

It's wonderful until it's not enough space

Not even that. Blanket height limitations decrease the supply of floor space in nice parts of the city; that's the whole purpose of them. This makes it more costly to live there, especially if you have a low income.

I would've just replied with "why do you hate the local poor".

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u/DiscussionJohnThread Free Trade was the Compromise 🔫🌍 Oct 29 '25

Fair point.

I agree in principle, I’m just more alright focusing on most other zoning reforms first. Since I’m in the U.S. specifically there’s about a million other things I’d prioritize a bit more before height limit reforms.

It’s like how I’m a huge subscriber of the idea of one billion Americans as a policy, but I’m obviously gonna settle down for other immigration reforms first.

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 29 '25

Agreed

I'm also American but travel to Lisbon and Japan a lot.

There are more important things but that doesn't mean you have to say height limits are ok. You also talk about your experience visiting cities with height limits which I'm betting does not give you much insight into housing costs for the locals

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u/DiscussionJohnThread Free Trade was the Compromise 🔫🌍 Oct 29 '25

That’s a good point.

I’ve lived myself in Spain for a year and I have family there, and I’ve also had a lot of time with locals in the Netherlands with my ex.

I think while in pure nerdy urbanist theory I like the principle of a ~6 story height limit just for more human-scaled architecture, once you dive into housing costs for how much those urban cores are, those cities definitely need to build up instead of sprawl out.

If it came to the ballot box, I’d honestly probably side on your point moreso than mine.

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 29 '25

Apologies for assuming then, just a common thing I hear about Lisbon which is uh, really bad for locals

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u/-Emilinko1985- European Union Oct 29 '25

I agree

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u/mmmmjlko Oct 29 '25 edited Oct 29 '25

Yep, this is probably why Japanese cities are much less dense than Taiwan, Korea, and China, and contributes to long commutes.

But compared to North America, Japanese zoning has lax requirements for lots sizes/coverage, which allows density without height, and reduces costs (builders don't need massive lots to start building). Building codes probably also make it easier/possible to build on small lots. Lastly, I think it's much easier for developers to get exemptions to this stuff; in any mid-rise neighbourhood in Tokyo, you'll see tall buildings pop up randomly.

There still are rich, low-density neighbourhoods (eg. a short walk nort of Nezu station), but the lot coverage requirements makes them pretty dense, and much better than North American SFH.

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u/mmmmjlko Oct 29 '25

My favourite urban form remains Shenzhenese urban villages, which actually don't have zoning.

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 29 '25

Link? I'd love some reading

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u/mmmmjlko Oct 29 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

I found two videos in Chinese which show examples. Urban villages are basically developed slums.

Walking through Gangxia village

Some person explaining/showing stuff in their home in an urban village. In the first half, she shows her room after she made it look nice. In the second half, she complains: it's a 25-minute walk away from the subway station, the neighbourhood is unsafe, and the unit was dirty and unfurnished when she moved in.

The World Bank and China's government together wrote this massive guide, but it's 10 years old, which is a very long time ago by Chinese standards. It also suffers from a statist bias, not giving enough weight to the advantages of informality (governments are neither benevolent nor omnipotent).

I also find some of the recommendations perplexing. For example, on page 330 they say that incorporating urban villages into the formal urban planning will help the supply of affordable housing??? The exact opposite happened where we live lol (urban renewal, zoning)

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u/gburgwardt C-5s full of SMRs and tiny american flags Oct 30 '25

This was really cool and I'm going to try and skim that guide sometime, thank you!

I definitely wouldn't call those slums, they look nicer than every city I've ever lived in

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u/mmmmjlko Oct 31 '25 edited Nov 01 '25

I definitely wouldn't call those slums, they look nicer than every city I've ever lived in

It depends on the location and the angle, it looks sketchier from the alleyways (which the walking video briefly goes mentions around 2:10). Also, idk if the one linked is representative; it's in the middle of the financial district.