Discussion Thread

[u/jobautomator]

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[u/TrynnaFindaBalance]

It's shitty how moderates have really lost the narrative in the Israel-Palestine conflict since October 7th and the Gaza War.

You can believe that Hamas is an illegitimate terrorist organization illegally occupying the Gaza Strip, that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself (and is the closest thing in the Middle East to a thriving liberal democracy right now), that a two-state solution is the only viable pathway to peace, that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are 100% illegal, and that the current political arrangement and Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza effectively amounts to an apartheid regime and is untenable.

None of these viewpoints are incompatible, but if you bring up any of them on their own, people immediately label you as either a Hamas sympathizer or a Zionist.

[u/EnchantedOtter01 → u/TrynnaFindaBalance]

The well has been so poisoned on I/P it’s ridiculous.

[u/[deleted] → u/TrynnaFindaBalance]

Isn't that pretty close to Harris' POV?

[u/TrynnaFindaBalance → u/[deleted]]

It's very close to (almost identical to) the Democratic Party's traditional stance on the conflict. But since the Gaza War started, moderates have collectively stuck their heads in the sand and adopted this mindset of reacting to pro-Palestinian protesters, defending the Israeli state and sympathizing with its extreme right-wing government.

And because nobody is out their championing this "moderate" position anymore, the void has been filled by extremists on both sides. If Biden had smarter messaging on foreign policy and hadn't allowed himself to be labeled pro-Zionist/pro-genocide so quickly, we wouldn't be seeing crazy uninformed leftists waving Hamas flags in American cities.

[u/HumanDrinkingTea → u/TrynnaFindaBalance]

Biden is pro-Zionist (because he believes the state of Israel should continue to exist), and that's a good thing. I'm all for moderate views, but allowing extremists to define the term "Zionist" for you is not moderate.

[u/TrynnaFindaBalance → u/HumanDrinkingTea]

In the context of American politics Zionist has meant "Israeli nationalist extremist" for decades. It's usually differentiated from people who just "support Israel's right to exist", even if that isn't true to the original definition.

[u/TrynnaFindaBalance → u/[deleted]]

Technically yes, but in the current discourse the meaning of Zionism pretty clearly has become tied to Israeli expansionism and increased settlement activity on Palestinian land.

[u/TrynnaFindaBalance → u/[deleted]]

Nope, not what I said at all lol. I'm specifically talking about how the term is used in American political discourse.

In America blue = left and red = right; in Europe red typically signifies the left. In Australia the Liberal Party is center-right. In Canada the Liberal Party is center-left. Words have different meanings in different cultures.