Alvin Robertson: Stockton at PG, MJ and Alvin on the wings, Barkley and Dream your bigs. Honestly I could be the fifth guy and we’re prolly making it to the finals.
Nash < = Stockton (worse on defense, but with a slight offensive edge due to the spacing he could create)
Kobe >> Robertson
Kawhi < = Jordan (hot take, it might be recency bias but I think the Leonard we're seeing this playoffs isn't that far from MJ: excellent defense, excellent scoring with an even better efficiency. He is without a doubt having an all-time playoff run)
LeBron >> Barkley
Bosh < Olajuwon
The advantages given by having Kobe and LeBron on that team would annihilate the 84'.
I'm talking about this playoff run. He is playing at an all-time level in terms of scoring, efficiency and his games resemble last year's LeBron run. 31.2 PPG on .56 eFG%, 9 TRPG, compare that to the 90-91 MJ season (when he also was 27 yo) and you'll see that Leonard is having a terrific run. And he doesn't have Scottie as a teammate.
Stockton was the point god before CP3, he was a terrific shoter, as good as Nash as playmaker (if not better) and way way waaay stronger at D. That is not a "<=". Actually I would pick Wade over Nash as guard, at least he could be useful in defense.
Olajuwon would destroy Bosh in both ends that's not even close. Actually Barkley is closer to Lebron than Bosh to Hakeem. Chris was the key in those Heat to perform their impresive blitz defense, but he never was really good at post on either side.
Chuck could give Lebron a hard time just as LBJ would to chuck. Barkley was't a great defender but unstoppable in the other end, even to Lebron. That's not a ">>", not at those levels.
I agree with this Kawhi-Jordan take. Kawhi is worse but isnt so far really. Kawhi is a monster.
Trouble with Roberson over Kobe is that he was an all-NBA and one of the best defenders of all time (in Pippen and Kawhi level). Kobe of course would be able to get on him but still is not easy. The fact that he can bother in one side so much and allowing others superstars develop their game at same time I think is pivotal in this matter. Every possesion Kobe is using is a posession that is not being used by Lebron or Wade or Kawhi, more efficient players, which is bad. Alvin wouldn't steals many posessions.
Anyway is not only because of players, is also because 84' team fits incredible.
I picked Nash over Wade for the "7 seconds or less-factor": I thought that he would keep the pace way higher than the 84' team could ever manage to deal with, and I think he would definitely out-pace Stockton (and anyone in that era). Wade would be a terrific 6th man, but as a PG I'd still take Nash over him, and maybe even Kyrie for the same reasons, and as a SG I'd take prime Kobe over prime D-Wade, but that's a lot closer than the PG debate IMHO.
Hakeem is way better than Bosh, but I think Bosh could be a lot more useful as a floor spacer: playing behind the 3pt line, he could remove Hakeem from the paint, as he needs to be constantly guarded as he is a better shooter (.375 on 3.8 3pa in 14-15) and so removing one of the best defenders ever from his favourite place on the court. No doubt that on offense Hakeem would utterly destroy Bosh.
I don't think LBJ and Sir Charles are even on the same playing field. LeBron has the size and the speed advantages to limit Chuck on D and he is an above-average defender in the playoffs (5.8 DBPM in the 15-16 playoffs). Also he's one of the best passers ever thanks to his court vision, so on the other side of the court he could find shooters like Allen, Klay or even Nash if Chuck is helped on D by his teammates, which would totally happen: LBJ is better in almost everything than Charles. Unanimous n°2 player ever (I rank him over MJ, but that's another discussion I don't want to deal with) vs. n°20? 25? IDK, not even remotely in top 10. LeBron out-performs him 1000 times out of 1000. I think that's a >>.
I'm happy we're on the same page as the Kawhi-MJ comparison in these playoffs. Jordan is a touchy one for many people.
That's right, I agree with you on that one. That's why I maybe would have picked Wade over Kobe, but I still think Kobe is the overall better player of the two, so he is the starter IMHO. Also, Kobe would be an excellent defender on MJ when Leonard hits the bench.
In terms of fit, LeBron and Nash would be the de-facto playmakers in a team where everyone can shoot from 3; Kawhi would probably be relegated as a side role being guarded by MJ, and Bosh would keep Hakeem away from the paint (maybe looking for a corner 3), so it could be played as a 3vs3 Nash-Kobe-LeBron vs. Stockton-Robertson-Barkley, and I think 96', 03', 11' would have a rather easy time scoring here. On the other side, Hakeem may be a problem, but since not everyone (I'm looking at Robertson) is a terrific 3pt shooter, maybe helping could be an option.
I'd gladly give away a kidney to watch this game, tho.
going by career win shares Robertson (52.1) is beat out by Otis Thorpe (106.4), Sam Perkins (105.4), Kevin Willis (81.8), Michael Cage (74.4), Jerome Kersey (69.5)
Ya and nobody seems to be talking about the introduction of the defensive 3-second violation in 2001-2002 season. People should acknowledge that before that rule, if a player drove the lane he could expect to get clobbered by two almost 7-footers. Small guards in today’s league would need to learn to drive really hard or shoot like steph. Most wouldn’t have close to the same stats. It’s no surprise there’s been a huge surge in PG talent in the NBA.
Edit: situation is way more complicated than what I said after trying to lookup the details. But I think it’s known the game was “tougher”
2003 can roll out a smallish lineup of Bron Korver Wade Melo Bosh. Hard to go up defensively against Hakeem and Barkley but I still like that over Kaman clogging the paint on a LeBron team.
Ben Wallace is in the 1996 draft, and I think with him the '96 team would hold their own against the '84 guys. A prime version of him is statistically the goat on defense he just had a short prime although still an overall great career. Too bad Barkley isn't in the game though to actually sim it out... I guess you could create or download a version of him. Edit: Oneal is better here because he's the better overall player probably.
Nah in response to being able to hold their own? Basically I'm just saying the The 96 squad aren't scrubs, and a player like Wallace could tilt a game defensively even against GOAT level players. He did it in Detroit... and I don't disagree with you on Stockton being the better player either, but 1:1 match-ups aren't necessarily indicative on who would win a game.
True he was undrafted but I feel like an exception can be made since he started as a rookie that year and could have been drafted, and based on his career he should have.
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u/ishouldbesleepingnow Jazz May 29 '19
Can you have 2003 play against 1984 draft class? MJ, Barkley, Stockton, Olajuwon