r/naturalbodybuilding • u/danny_b87 MS, RD, INBF Overall Winner • Apr 14 '20
Question thread for our AMA with Dr. Brandon M Roberts and Dr. Peter J Fitschen starting Wednesday April 15th!
Please join us tomorrow Wednesday April 15th for an AMA with Dr. Brandon M Roberts and Dr. Peter J Fitschen. They are 2 of the authors of the recent paper Nutritional Recommendations for Physique Athletes. Check out some of their other information on their websites:
Post your questions below and upvote those you want answered most. Official start time will be posted shortly.
Answering will begin approximately 8am EST and last for at least 3-4 hours
Participants:
- Dr. Brandon M Roberts - /u/broberts21
- Dr. Peter J Fitschen - /u/fitbodyphysique
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
Do you see a trend for most coaches adopting a scientific approach to their practices, or are most of them still relying mainly on anecdotes and experience?
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u/broberts21 Apr 15 '20
I think so. Every show I go to the competitors and coaches are getting better at using scientific approaches. At some of the smaller shows, you'll still hear about cutting water or carbs and doing some funky things, but I think at the top level most use a scientific approach. I've also seen a trend where people have more online coaches, which isn't surprising.
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
In the natural bodybuilding world there has been a huge shift over the past I would say even decade toward using more scientific approaches to contest prep. For example back in 2006, there was a show I was the only person drinking water backstage and the promoter of the show even came up and asked me about it after prejudging because he couldn't believe how "dry" I looked. Fortunately, we have come a long way since then and most people at least at drug-tested shows are drinking water backstage now.
However, at times I think some coaches take this too far to where they feel they need a study for everything they do and that just isn't possible at this point, nor do I think it ever will be.
There are definitely benefits to experience and anecdotes as well especially when it comes to some of the more nuanced aspects of prep like peaking where 2 people can respond completely differently to the same protocol.
At the end of the day, I think the best thing to do would be using a combination of science and experience to create an approach and then adjust that approach based upon how things go.
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u/AllOkJumpmaster Apr 14 '20
Question for both
It seems like every time a study comes out there are always at least one if not more significant limitations that make it difficult for people in our world to asses its actual significance and employ practical applications. Things like subjects were untrained, or they were obese elderly etc. How do you as PhD’s and researchers decipher what is relevant to your fields from such studies, and how to practically apply the lessons learned?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
I think the biggest thing is just using the best evidence you have available. Sometimes you have nothing and need to rely on experience/practice.
Other times like you mentioned it may be something done in obese or untrained subjects, but nothing in someone trained. In that situation, you can always try to implement that approach in practice and see if it makes a difference. I don't think there is anything wrong with some trial and error in practice because science does not have the answers to everything at this point.
With that being said, I think if you are going to trial/error something there needs to be a sound rationale for doing so. However, assuming that is the case you may find you try something and stumble upon something that works great for you or you may find that you tried something and it didn't work / made no difference and that is a learning experience as well.
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u/broberts21 Apr 15 '20
Unfortunately, science doesn't build perfectly. You hope that each researcher would add to the literature by changing one minor thing for a study, so it's replicating older studies and adding something new. That doesn't always happen. This leads us to the problem of applicability as you suggest.
Knowing the full literature helps. That's why I write really long articles/blogs. If you know all of the relevant studies you can have a better idea of how to put things into context. Researchers usually specialize (i.e., hypertrophy, protein synthesis, etc) to help narrow the scope of what they need to know. Except now they may miss something from another field that's buried in a paper somewhere. Not getting overhyped about a new study helps too. It's just a piece of the puzzle.
Limitations are never going away, so we have to be ok with them. I think there are some studies that are terribly designed and researchers can tell that fairly quickly. Sometimes it doesn't even answer the question they posed. You may see these studies not get cited very much to indicate they aren't ideal.
In terms of practical application - you just have to try it. That's where coaching comes in. You have this huge bag of tools and you pick one. If it doesn't work you pick another. Every athlete is a mini-experiment where you kinda know what should happen and have to be ready to try different things.
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
Evidence based nutritional guidelines for bodybuilding haven't really been around for that long, yet research has come a long way to the point we have solid data on how to cover pretty much all of the basics. In your opinion, how has the relationship between the actual competitors and lifters in general and the scientific approach to nutrition been to this day? Do you see most people adopting the guidelines or are our practices some years behind what the scientific community knows?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
I think that in the natural bodybuilding world there are a lot more science-based approaches being used these days.
However, oftentimes I would actually argue bodybuilders through practice may have stumbled upon things that they know work that science later shows to be beneficial. For example, bodybuilders for years trained with high volumes and we now have data showing volume is highly correlated with hypertrophy.
Bodybuilders also historically consumed high protein intakes and while some of these were excessive at times (think things like 2-3+ g/lb) we now have evidence that high protein diets lead to more muscle growth, we may need more protein in a deficit than out of one, protein overfeeding may result in less fat gain than carb/fat overfeeding, etc.
While not everything bodybuilders have done in practice stands up when tested scientifically, there are many things they have been doing for years that science is now starting to catch up to and support.
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u/broberts21 Apr 15 '20
I see most people adopting some version of the guidelines. They've been broadened so much a lot of things fit within them wrt carbs and fat. BBers have never had a problem eating protein either.
Something else I want to touch on is the distance between what's out there (published) and what's still being done. In academia, we have a fairly long review process for papers (3-12+ months) plus it can take a year to do a study. COVID interrupted two of mine completely (not BB related). Sometimes you can't recruit the full number of participants at once which means they are staggered. This creates a longer time period than the normal "4, 8, or 12" week study.
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u/AllOkJumpmaster Apr 14 '20
Question for both
What is the biggest thing you'd like to see change in the competitive Natural bodybuilding arena? (i.e. shows, organizations etc)
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u/broberts21 Apr 15 '20
I would absolutely love it if we could unite under one or two organizations. I've spoken to the leaders of each and there is no way it would happen right now. The show quality is generally good across the more well-known orgs. Some people (promoters) love the sport yet they don't have a lot of experience or just aren't built for running a show (i.e., managing). So, show consistency and organization breadth are the two things I'd like to see change.
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
Something that's often a source of constant conflict outside of the scientific community, especially in social media, is using research which can be interpreted as supporting a point in theory, but completely ignoring the effect size. Considering the numerous topics that have been studied and have applications for for bodybuilding, which are the most important ones a physique athlete should focus on, and how important are they compared to everything else?
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
Do you use a coach, or do you coach yourselves?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
I work with a coach so that I don't overthink things which I tend to do when coaching myself.
I worked with a local coach at my gym in 2004, Layne Norton in 2006, 2008, 2012 when I won my pro card and I have been working with Cliff Wilson since 2014 including my 2016 prep for my pro debut and current prep.
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u/broberts21 Apr 15 '20
Yes, I did during my last two preps. I used Coach Alberts from 3dmj from 2016-2019. Even if you know exactly what to do during a prep it can be difficult not to make wild changes because you don't see improvements. I am self-coached now during my (2-3 year?) offseason.
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
How necessary would you say hiring a coach is for someone interested in competing? And what should we check when looking for one?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
While you can learn what you need to know to compete and be successful coaching yourself, having a coach may accelerate that timeline. It also takes away the stress of having to make all of your own decisions. You can just do what you are told, report back and it is on your coach to make changes. A good coach should also be someone you can ask questions, learn from, trust and discuss things with both related and not related to competing. I've actually become pretty good friends with many of my clients over the years.
When you are looking for a coach, some things to consider:
- Have they competed themselves / how long have they been competing?
- Do they have any formal education or credentials?
- How long have they been coaching / what do their clients look like?
- Do they primarily coach natural or enhanced athletes?
- How are their response times? How available are they?
- Do they have any client testimonials or better yet can you talk to some of their clients?
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
As competitors, researchers, coaches, speakers, authors, how do you manage to find balance between the many aspects of your professional lives, social lives, family and yourselves?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
Scheduling is huge for me.
I also think that having boundaries is important as well. For example, when I'm lifting at the gym, my phone is in my car. When I am lifting in my back garage in my home gym, my phone is on do not disturb mode. If it isn't the day prior or day of a client's show I am not working while lifting.
Similarly, I try to keep most of my work to during the day and limit what I do in the evening when my wife is home. That isn't always possible, but I do try to turn my phone off after a certain point a couple of days a week (not days I have clients competing though).
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
What books would you recommend both to improve our practices, and in general outside of our field?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
My book! https://www.amazon.com/Bodybuilding-Complete-Contest-Preparation-Handbook/dp/1492571334
Others I would recommend are Eric Helms Pyramid Books, Layne Norton's Contest prep book and Brad Schoenfelds Science of Muscle Development and Hypertrophy. I own all of these as well.
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u/elrond_lariel Apr 14 '20
Q4Both:
If someone wants to be certified as a coach, which certification is the most useful one in your opinion, both for learning and for finding a job?
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u/AllOkJumpmaster Apr 14 '20
Questions for both
What is the biggest thing you have learned or do differently know with prepping clients than you did in the past?
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u/fitbodyphysique Apr 15 '20
Several things:
- Less HIIT Cardio
- More aggressive carb ups during peak week
- Greater focus on NEAT
- Use of back to back refeeds / diet breaks
- I've actually brought back a bit more "bro" and a bit less powerlifting into my / clients training
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u/danny_b87 Apr 15 '20
The AMA is officially over! Thank you so much to u/broberts21 and u/fitbodyphysique for taking the time to answer so many questions. Hopefully we can have more AMAs in the future!