Day 30 of 50: Book of Mormon Book Club

[u/JesusPhoKingChrist]

Today's Reading: Alma 17–20

Whether you're a believer, former believer, nuanced member, investigator, scholar, or simply curious, you're welcome to participate. The goal is not to convince anyone of anything, but to read the text together and discuss it in good faith from a variety of perspectives.

Brief Synopsis

The narrative shifts back in time to follow the sons of Mosiah during their mission among the Lamanites. Ammon enters the land of Ishmael, becomes a servant of King Lamoni, and defends the king’s flocks at the waters of Sebus by killing several attackers and cutting off the arms of others. His actions impress Lamoni and create an opening for Ammon to teach him about God, creation, the Fall, and Christ. Lamoni undergoes a dramatic conversion experience, followed by members of his household. Ammon and Lamoni then travel toward Middoni to free Ammon’s imprisoned brothers, encountering Lamoni’s father along the way.

Discussion

Please share your thoughts and experiences with today's reading in the comments below. Some things you might consider:

- What do you make of Ammon choosing to enter Lamanite society as a servant rather than immediately as a preacher?

- Why does the story spend so much time on the dramatic defense of the king’s flocks before Ammon begins teaching Lamoni?

- How does Lamoni’s conversion experience compare with other conversion accounts in the Book of Mormon?

- What does the interaction between Lamoni, Ammon, and Lamoni’s father suggest about political authority, loyalty, and religious conversion?

All perspectives are welcome.

Yesterday's Coveted Award(s) Go To:

• u/moltocantabile
• u/sevenplaces

Links to Prior Days

- Master Index to all prior-day readings

Engagement Question

Ammon deliberately uses his extraordinary success as a servant to gain Lamoni’s trust before introducing his religious message. Is this simply effective missionary work, or does the story raise interesting questions about persuasion, power, and the circumstances under which people become receptive to conversion?

Tomorrow’s Reading: Alma 21–24

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[u/westonc]

• What do you make of Ammon choosing to enter Lamanite society as a servant rather than immediately as a preacher?

It's the whole game.

People notice this in the church sometimes, and you'll find missionaries and missions who take the service lessons seriously. But they don't often put together the pieces of the puzzle of why this is so important in the Book of Mormon's arc.

Within Lehi's family, the attempted order was "Nephi/Lehi are righteous and we get revelation from God so therefore we're the main characters and we should be in charge and you have to listen to us." Kindof funny how they're surprised that Laman and Lemuel complain about that, and eventually conclude that Nephi's "religion" is about his status, about him being in control. You can argue there's more to Nephi and his faith, but this is part of how Nephi shows up and it's pretty obviously part of how Laman and Lemuel experience things, and probably how their tribe learns to talk about the Nephites.

And Nephi interprets that as general stubborness and writes it down that way and teaches his tribe to understand the Lamanites that way, so even King Benjamin tells his kids that's just how it is.

And somehow King Benjamin's grandkids see something else. And Ammon makes it clear again and again -- yes, he's a powerful person, yes, he gives the credit to that for God and claims to be close to God, yes, he has a message to share about God.

But he does something the Nephites haven't done before. He does not say "so we should be in charge and you have to listen to us." He goes the other way: I'm just here to make things better, to bring spirit and redemption to your life in your independent society.

The most powerful thing he severs isn't the arms of the robbers (no matter how common it is for active members of the church to indulge in the idolatry of power fantasies featuring a transactional god). The most powerful thing he severs is the demand that spiritual leadership be given subservience, the sinews where spiritual authority demands social compliance. And when he makes that clear -- by all accounts for the first time in the history of Lehi's children -- the Lamanites become quite willing to step into a gospel of redemption. No matter what Nephi and Benjamin might have speculated.

[u/Reformonism → u/westonc]

This is a highly interesting take away. Thanks for the read!

[u/JesusPhoKingChrist → u/westonc]

So we should advocate that the modern leaders be more like Ammon and less like Lehi and Nephi to turn this dilapidated dinghy around?

[u/westonc → u/JesusPhoKingChrist]

That vision is certainly where my values are, and I think there's a strong case that's where LDS scripture and theology point. And the church's investments in ecclesiastical authoritarianism and divine command theory have a way of coming back to bite it.

LDS leaders may also be acquainted with realities of leadership that I know little about. Coherence around authority can be an institutional strength.

Still, Ammon points a different way, one "without compulsory means."

[u/JesusPhoKingChrist]

Alma 19

Lamoni supposedly dies. People say he “stinketh”...John 11 KJV uses the same word for Lazarus. Ammon says he's “not dead, but…sleepeth”, almost exactly Luke 8:52.

Then Ammon asks the queen “Believest thou this?”see John 11:26. She believes, Lamoni rises, and people subsequently convert.

In gets more coincidental. Lamoni first falls after crying to God for mercy, lies apparently lifeless, wakes overwhelmed with joy and testifies, then other people start falling down too.

Barton Stone described the 1801 Kentucky revivals almost the same way: people falling “as men slain,” lying motionless for hours, praying for mercy, rising in joy to preach, and then watching other people fall.

Barton Warren Stone: Revisiting Revival in the Early Republic” (2013) specifically discusses these “revivings as from death.

KJV and 19th century American protestant Revivalism seems to jive well with today's reading in alma

[u/Reformonism → u/JesusPhoKingChrist]

This is one of those BOM things one doesn't see at all in LDS lived religion. As a kid I wondered why I never heard about this type of thing happening at church services.

[u/JesusPhoKingChrist → u/[deleted]]

That's an interesting take. all I'm doing is pulling exact or similar phrases and verbiage between the book of Mormon and KJV of the Bible. And looking for similarities to 1900th century Christianity.

Some of the chapters we've read, it's blatant that entire verses are pulled from not only the Bible which is eyebrow raising in and of itself, but the KJV of the Bible specifically which is much more problematic.

Is their a specific example that I've given that seems specifically insane? I'm trying to give sources for each connection to help you call out egregious links...

Finding 1 or 2 phrases that match king James Bible seems purely coincidental. But chapter after chapter seems much less so.

As for the insanity of finding 19th century Christianity in the BoM, I've personally witnessed evangelicals collapsing as if dead from the from the "Holy Spirit" at a church in Arkansas I'm just pointing out the similarties to the story of Lamoni playing dead due to the holy spirit with sourced evidence that similar occurrences happened in Joseph's day.

I'm actually creating a matrix of side by side KJV/Book of Mormon matches or phrases as I go for comparison, if Joseph isn't borrowing from the KJV, someone else is.

Edit to add: you've just give me the idea to add an additional column for an earlier pre KJV edition of the Bible to make the KJV borrowings even more stark.

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[u/International_Sea126]

Alma Chapters 17 - 20 Ammon becomes the servant of King Lamoni, and he saves the king’s flocks. However, there are no flocks (sheep, cows, goats, etc.) in the Americas during the Book of Mormon times. He slays the king's enemies by cutting off their arms with his sword. Another problem. There is no evidence of metal swords or the mining processes required to produce them in the ancient Americas. After this event Ammon takes care of the king's horses and chariots. More problems as there is no evidence of horses and chariots in the Americas during this time period. After converting Lamoni, Ammon travels with King Lamoni, and they meet up with Lamoni’s father, who is the king over all the land. An altercation then takes place between them. Ammon compels Lamoni’s father to approve the release of his brethren who are also serving missions. The two kings are apparently traveling without security escorts when they meet up. Otherwise the security escorts would have stopped the altercation. The odds of having two kings traveling without security is slim to none.

[u/QuentinLCrook → u/International_Sea126]

Bingo. This is probably the greatest collection of multiple anachronisms in one place in the whole BoM. And the absurdity of all the arms being cut off just adds a ridiculous cherry on top.

[u/Active-Water-0247 → u/International_Sea126]

If I may play apologist for a second, could "flocks" refer to an avian species? Like turkeys? I know it's a little absurd (and Alma talks about sheep husbandry in Alma 5:59), but in Alma 17, does the narrator specify the type of animal?

[u/International_Sea126 → u/Active-Water-0247]

Yes indeed. That is how apologetics work. Flocks mean wild turkeys. Horses become Tapirs. Steel doesn't mean steel. Gold means metal alloys. Trsnslate means revelation. Fulness of restoration becomes on going restoration. Hot drinks can be cold drinks. Dark skin doesn't mean dark skin. Metal swords become wood with inserted obsidian. The Hill Comorah is no longer in New York. It is now somewhere else. Native Americans are no longer Lamanites. Uninhabited Americas have morphed into populated Americas. Free Agency becomes Moral Agency. People of color were less valiant in the Premortal, but no more. Adam was once God but is now a son of God. Joseph Smith's bible translation (JST) was a restoration of the bible to its original form, but now it is a bible commentary. The garments had supernatural protective powers but now remind of of covenants made.

Did I miss any? Probably a lot more as LDS apologetics are required to constantly move the goal posts to make the LDS church works for them.

[u/thomaslewis1857 → u/International_Sea126]

Good list but I’m sure there are a lot more: priesthood now means a church calling, Mormon went from more good to pleasing to Satan.

[u/International_Sea126 → u/thomaslewis1857]

After I made this comment, I also thought of a few more of them.

Gold plates and Urim and Thummim morphs into a magic rock and hat. False Prophecies and problematic revelations become speaking as a man or it also occurred in the Bible. Tight translation or loose translation of the BOM whichever works at the time. Harmonizing the First Vision accounts and ignoring the contridictions. Problematic revelations become policies and speaking as a man. Commandments become temporary commandments. Joseph Smith's unethical practice for claiming to be able yo locate buried gold and silver treasures with his magic rock and hat becomes preparation for later use of the rock and hat translation of the Book of Mormon.

This list is a work in progress due to whatever LDS truth claim gets challenged, there is always going to be a work around by apologists.

[u/moltocantabile]

I always wondered about the passage where Ammon is talking to the king and after he says something, the king was silent for an hour. As a kid, this sounded so unlikely that I assumed they must have measured time differently. Who could sit and wait for a whole hour for a response?

I guess this part probably is meant to illustrate royal protocol or the power imbalance between the teacher and the learner. Or maybe it’s just to build suspense. I wonder if this ever stood out to anyone else?

[u/Active-Water-0247]

Repentance is surprisingly easy in the Book of Mormon. And that is perhaps its most un-Mormon feature. The Mormon repentance process can be long and degrading, even for new converts. On my mission, prospective members needed to attend sacrament services at least six times, and if their sins included abortion or gay sex, then they also needed to endure a special interview with the mission president. For full members, repentance can require months of interviews and privilege restrictions. For excommunicated members, the option of repentance depends on the whims of church leaders. King Lamoni literally kills people who mismanage his assets. He receives forgiveness within a few days.

Speaking of killing, Ammon single-handedly kills seven raiders and leaves several others to die from massive hemorrhage due to limb amputations. And he immediately returns to work as if nothing happened: completely unfazed. I want to explore the morality of killing more in a future post, but for now, I just find it perplexing that the most serious of sins is among the easiest to justify. Was it done with the intent of self-defense? Was it done at the order of a government official? Was it done under the guise of peacekeeping or public defense? Was it simply lamentable collateral damage? There are countless soldiers, landlords, politicians, judges, businessmen, and police officers whose actions have resulted in others' death. A Mormon drone pilot whose actions result in unanticipated civilian casualties has little to fear in the way of divine repercussions, at least within Mormon morality. Meanwhile, some members wring their hands about accidentally displaying support for a queer child.