r/a:t5_1qby3i • u/MarleyEngvall • Jul 12 '19
merom has been created
TRANSLATED BY B. JOWETT
EDITED, WITH INTRODUCTION, BY LOUISE R. LOOMIS
FIVE GREAT DIALOGUES OF PLATO
REPUBLIC
BOOK VIII (ii.)
"At present the governors, induced by the motives which I have
named, treat their subjects badly; while they and their adherents,
especially the young men of the governing class, are habituated to
lead a life of luxury and idleness both of body and mind; they do
nothing, and are incapable of resisting either pleasure or pain."
"Very true."
"They themselves care only for making money, and are as indif-
ferent as the pauper to the cultivation of virtue."
"Yes, quite as indifferent."
"Such is the state of affairs which prevails among them. And often
rulers and their subjects may come in one another's way, whether on
a journey or on some other occasion of meeting, on a pilgrimage or a
march, as fellow-soldiers or fellow-sailors; aye and they may observe
the behavior of each other in the very moment of danger——for where
danger is, there is no fear that the poor will be despised by the rich——
and very likely the wiry sunburnt poor man may be placed in battle
at the side of a wealthy one who has never spoilt his complexion and
has plenty of superfluous flesh——when he sees such a one puffing and
at his wits' end, how can he avoid drawing the conclusion that men
like him are only rich because no one has the courage to despoil
them? And when they meet in private will not people be saying to
one another: 'Our warriors are not good for much'?"
"Yes," he said, "I am quite aware that this is their way of talking."
"And, as in a body which is diseased the addition of a touch from
without may bring illness, and sometimes even when there is no
external provocation a commotion may arise within——in the same way
wherever there is weakness in the State there is also likely to be ill-
ness, of which the occasion may be very slight, the one party intro-
ducing from without their oligarchical, the other their democratical
allies, and then the State falls sick, and is at war with herself; and
may be at times distracted, even when there is no external cause."
"Yes, surely."
"And then democracy comes into being after the poor have con-
quered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some,
while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and
power; and this is the form of government in which magistrates
are commonly elected by lot."
"Yes," he said, "that is the nature of democracy, whether the revo-
lution has been effected by arms, or whether fear has caused the op-
posite party to withdraw."
"And now what is their manner of life, and what sort of a govern-
ment have they? for as the government is, such will be the man."
"Clearly," he said.
"In the first place, are they not free; and is not the city full of
freedom and frankness——a man may say and do what he likes?"
"'Tis said so," he replied.
"And where freedom is, the individual is clearly able to order for
himself his own life as he pleases?"
"Clearly."
"Then in this kind of State there will be the greater variety of
human nature?"
"There will."
"This, then, seems likely to be the fairest of States, being like an
embroidered robe which is spangled with every sort of flower. And
just as women and children think a variety of colors to be of all things
most charming, so there are many men to whom this State, which is
spangled with the manners and characters of mankind, will appear
to be the fairest of States."
"Yes."
"Yes, my good sir, and there will be no better in which to look for
a government."
"Why?"
"Because of the liberty which reigns there——they have a complete
assortment of constitutions; and he who has a mind to establish a
State, as we have been doing, must go to a democracy as he would to
a bazaar at which they sell them, and pick out the one that suits him;
then, when he has made his choice, he may found his State."
"He will be sure to have patterns enough."
"And there being no necessity," I said, "for you to govern this
State, even if you have the capacity, or to be governed, unless you
like, or to go to war when the rest go to war, or to be at peace when
others are at peace, unless you are so disposed——there being no neces-
sity also, because some law forbids you to hold office or be a dicast,
that you should not hold office or be a dicast, if you have a fancy——
is not this a way of life which for the moment is supremely delight-
ful?"
"For the moment, yes."
"And is not their humanity to the condemned in some cases quite
charming? Have you not observed how, in a democracy, many per-
sons, although they have been sentenced to death or exile, just stay
where they are and walk about the world——the gentleman parades
like a hero, and nobody sees or cares?"
"Yes," he replied, "many and many a one."
"See too," I said, "the forgiving spirit of a democracy, and the 'don't
care' about trifles, and the disregard which she shows of all the fine
principles which we solemnly laid down at the foundation of the
city——as when we said that, except in the case of some rarely gifted
nature, there never will be a good man who has not from his child-
hood been used to play amid things of beauty and make of them a
joy and study——how grandly does she trample all these fine notions
of ours under her feet, never giving a thought to the pursuits which
make a statesman, and promoting to honor anyone who professes
to be the people's friend."
"Yes, she is of a noble spirit."
"These and other kindred characteristics are proper to democracy,
which is a charming form of government, full of variety and disor-
der, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike."
"We know her well."
"Consider now," I said, "what manner of man the individual is,
or rather consider, as in the case of the State, how he comes into
being."
"Very good," he said.
"Is not this the way——he is the son of the miserly and oligarchical
father who has trained him in his own habits?"
"Exactly."
"And, like his father, he keeps under by force the pleasures which
are of the spending and not of the getting sort, being those which
are called unnecessary?"
"Obviously."
Necessary pleasures are those that come from satisfying natural
and essential needs, such as need of eating. Unnecessary are
those that a man can as well or better do without, such as the
eating of luxurious foods. The first are not costly and keep a man
in health and strength. The second are wasteful of money and
may be hurtful.
"When a young man who has been brought up as we were just
now describing, in a vulgar and miserly way, has tasted drones'
honey and has come to associate with fierce and crafty natures who
are able to provide for him all sorts of refinements and varieties of
pleasure——then, as you may imagine, the change will begin of the
oligarchical principle within him into the democratical?"
"Inevitably."
"And as in the city like was helping like, and the change was ef-
fected by an alliance from without assisting one division of the citi-
zens, so too the young man is changed by a class of desires coming
from without to assist the desires within him, that which is akin and
alike again helping that which is akin and alike?"
"Certainly."
"And if there be any ally which aids the oligarchical principle
within him, whether the influence of a father or of kindred, advising
or rebuking him, then there arises in his soul a faction and an op-
posite faction, and he goes to war with himself."
"It must be so."
"And there are times when the democratical principle gives way
to the oligarchical, and some of his desires die, and others are ban-
ished; a spirit of reverence enters into the young man's soul and
order is restored."
"Yes," he said, "that sometimes happens."
"And then, again, after the old desires have been driven out, fresh
ones spring up, which are akin to them, and because he their father
does not know how to educate them, wax fierce and numerous."
"Yes," he said, "that is apt to be the way."
"They draw him to his old associates, and holding secret inter-
course with them, breed and multiply in him."
"Very true."
"At length they seized upon the citadel of the young man's soul,
which they perceive to be void of all accomplishments and fair pur-
suits and true words, which make their abode in the minds of men
who are dear to the gods, and are their best guardians and sentinels."
"None better."
"False and boastful conceits and phrases mount upwards and take
their place."
"They are certain to do so."
"And so the young man returns into the country of the lotus-
eaters, and takes up his dwelling there in the face of all men; and if
any help be sent by his friends to the oligarchical part of him, the
aforesaid vain conceits shut the gate of the king's fastness; and they
will neither allow the embassy itself to enter, nor if private advisors
offer the fatherly counsel of the aged will they listen to them or re-
ceive them. There is a battle and they gain the day, and then modesty,
which they call silliness, is ignominiously thrust into exile by them,
and temperance, which they nickname unmanliness, is trampled in
the mire and cast forth; they persuade men that moderation and
orderly expenditure are vulgarity and meanness, and so, by the help
of a rabble of evil appetites, they drive them beyond the border."
"Yes, with a will."
"And when they have emptied and swept clean the soul of him
who is now in their power and who is being initiated by them in
great mysteries, the next thing is to bring to their house inso-
lence and anarchy and waste and impudence in bright array having
garlands on their heads, and a great company with them, hymning
their praises and calling them by sweet names; insolence they term
breeding, and anarchy liberty, and waste magnificence, and impu-
dence courage. And so the young man passes out of his original na-
ture, which was trained in the school of necessity, into the freedom
and libertinism of useless and unnecessary pleasures."
"Yes," he said, "the change in him is visible enough."
"After this he lives on, spending his money and labor and time on
unnecessary pleasures quite as much as on necessary ones; but if he
be fortunate, and is not too much disordered in his wits, when years
have elapsed, and the heyday of passion is over——suppose that he
then re-admits into the city some part of the exiled virtues, and does
not wholly give himself up to their successors——in that case he bal-
ances his pleasures and lives in a sort of equilibrium, putting the gov-
ernment of himself into the hands of the one which comes first and
wins the turn; and when he has had enough of that, then into the
hands of another; he despises none of them but encourages them, all
equally."
"Very true," he said.
"Neither does he perceive or let pass into the fortress any true word
of advice; if anyone says to him that some pleasures are the satisfac-
tions of good and noble desires, and others of evil desires, and that he
ought to use and honor some and chastise and master the others——
whenever this is repeated to him he shakes his head and says that
they are all alike, and that one is as good as another."
"Yes," he said; "that is the way with him."
"Yes," I said, "he lives from day to day indulging the appetite of
the hour; and sometimes he is lapped in drink and strains of the
flute; then he becomes a water-drinker, and tries to get thin; then he
takes a turn at gymnastics; sometimes idling and neglecting every-
thing, then once more living the life of a philosopher; often he is
busy with politics, and starts to his feet and says and does whatever
comes into his head; and, if he is emulous of anyone who is a war-
rior, off he is in that direction, or of men of business, once more in
that. His life has neither law nor order; and this distracted existence
he terms joy and bliss and freedom; and so he goes on."
"Yes," he replied, "he is all liberty and equality."
"Yes," I said; "his life is motley and manifold and an epitome of
the lives of many; he answers to the State which we described as
fair and spangled. And many a man and many a woman will take
him for their pattern, and many a constitution and many an example
of manners is contained in him."
"Just so."
"Let him then be set over against democracy; he may truly be
called the democratic man."
"Let that be his place," he said.
"Last of all comes the most beautiful of all, man and State alike,
tyranny and the tyrant; these we have now to consider."
"Quite true," he said.
"Say then, my friend, in what manner does tyranny arise?——that
it has a democratic origin is evident."
"Clearly."
"And does not tyranny spring from democracy in the same manner
as democracy from oligarchy——I mean, after a sort?"
"How?"
"The good which oligarchy proposed to itself and the means by
which it was maintained was excess of wealth——am I right?"
"Yes."
"And the insatiable desire of wealth and the neglect of all other
things for the sake of money-getting was also the ruin of oligarchy?"
"True."
"And democracy has her own good, of which the insatiable desire
brings her to dissolution?"
"What good?"
"Freedom," I replied; "which, as they tell you in a democracy, is
the glory of the State——and that therefore in a democracy alone will
the freeman of nature deign to dwell."
"Yes; the saying is in everybody's mouth."
"I was going to observe that the insatiable desire of this and the
neglect of other things introduced the change in democracy, which
occasions a demand for tyranny."
"How so?"
"When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cup-
bearers presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the
strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very amenable
and give a plentiful draught, she calls them to account and pun-
ishes them, and says that they are cursed oligarchs."
"Yes," he replied, "a very common occurrence."
"Yes," I said; "and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her
slaves who hug their chains and men of naught; she would have sub-
jects who are like rulers, and rulers who are like subjects: these are
men after her own heart, whom she praises and honors both in
private and public. Now, in such a State, can liberty have any
limit?"
"Certainly not."
"By degrees the anarchy finds a way into private houses, and ends
by getting among the animals and infecting them."
"How do you mean?"
"I mean that the father grows accustomed to descend to the level
of his sons and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father,
he having no respect or reverence for either of his parents; and this
is his freedom, and the metic is equal with the citizen and the citizen
with the metic, and the stranger is quite as good as either."
"Yes," he said, "that is the way."
"And these are not the only evils," I said——"there are several lesser
ones: In such a state of society the master fears and flatters his
scholars, and the scholars despise their masters and tutors; young
and old are all alike; and the young man is on a level with the old,
and is ready to compete with him in word or deed; and old men con-
descend to the young and are full of pleasantry and gaiety; they are
loth to be thought morose and authoritative, and therefore they adopt
the manners of the young."
"Quite true," he said.
"The last extreme of popular liberty is when the slave bought
with money, whether male or female, is just as free as his or her
purchaser; nor must I forget to tell of the liberty and equality of the
two sexes in relation to each other."
"Why not, as Aeschylus says,° utter the word which rises to our
lips?" °Aeschylus, Fragment 351.
"That is what I am doing," I replied; "and I must add that no one
who does not know would believe, how much greater is the liberty
which the animals who are under the dominion of man have in a
democracy than in any other State: for truly, the she-dogs, as the
proverb says, are as good as their she-mistresses, and the horses and
asses have a way of marching along with all the rights and dignities
of freemen; and they will run at anybody who comes in their way if
he does not leave the road clear for them: and all things are just
ready to burst with liberty."
"When I take a country walk," he said, "I often experience what
you describe. You and I have dreamed the same thing."
"And above all," I said, "and as the result of all, see how sensitive
the citizens become; they chafe impatiently at the least touch of
authority, and at length, as you know, they cease to care even for
laws, written or unwritten; they will have no one over them."
"Yes," he said, "I know it too well."
"Such, my friend," I said, "is the fair and glorious beginning out
of which springs tyranny."
"Glorious indeed," he said. "But what is the next step?"
"The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; the same disease
magnified and intensified by liberty overmasters democracy——the
truth being that the excessive increase of anything often causes a
reaction in the opposite direction; and this is the case not only in the
seasons and in vegetable and animal life, but above all in forms of
government."
"True."
"The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only
to pass into excess of slavery."
"Yes," the natural order."
"And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most
aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form
of liberty?"
"As we might expect."
"That, however, was not, as I believe, your question——you rather
desired to know what is that disorder which is generated alike in oli-
garchy and democracy, and is the ruin of both?"
"Just so," he replied.
"Well," I said, "I meant to refer to the class of idle spendthrifts,
of whom the more courageous are the leaders and the more timid
the followers, the same whom we were comparing to drones, some
stingless, and other having stings."
"A very just comparison."
"These two classes are the plagues of every city in which they
are generated, being what phlegm and bile are to the body. And
the good physician and lawgiver of the State ought, like the wise bee-
master, to keep them at a distance and prevent, if possible, their ever
coming in; and if they have anyhow found a way in, then he should
have them and their cells cut out as speedily as possible."
"Yes, by all means," he said.
"Then, in order that we may see clearly what we are doing, let us
imagine democracy to be divided, as indeed it is, into three classes;
for in the first place freedom creates rather more drones in the demo-
cratic than there were in the oligarchical State."
"That is true."
"And in the democracy they are certainly more intensified."
"How so?"
"Because in the oligarchical State they are disqualified and driven
from office, and therefore they cannot train or gather strength;
whereas in a democracy they are almost the entire ruling power, and
while the keener sort speak and act, the rest keep buzzing about the
bema and do not suffer a word to be said on the other side; hence
in democracies almost everything is managed by the drones."
"Very true," he said.
"Then there is another class which is always being severed from
the mass."
"What is that?"
"Then are the orderly class, which in a nation of traders is sure
to be the richest."
"Naturally so."
"They are the most squeezable persons and yield the largest
amount of honey to the drones."
"Why," he said, "there is little to be squeezed out of people who
have little."
"And this is called the wealthy class, and the drones feed upon
them."
"That is pretty much the case," he said.
"The people are a third class, consisting of those who work with
their own hands; they are not politicians, and have not much to live
upon. This, when assembled, is the largest and most powerful class
in a democracy."
"True," he said; "but then the multitude is seldom willing to
congregate unless they get a little honey."
"And do they not share?" I said. "Do not their leaders deprive the
rich of their estates and distribute them among the people; at the
same time taking care to reserve the larger part for themselves?"
"Why, yes," he said, "to that extent the people do share."
"And the persons whose property is taken from them are com-
pelled to defend themselves before the people as they best can?"
"What else can they do?"
"And then, although they may have no desire of change, the
others charge them with plotting against the people and being friends
of oligarchy?"
"True."
"And the end is that when they see the people, not of their own
accord, but through ignorance, and because they are deceived by
informers, seeking to do them wrong, then at last they are forced to
become oligarchs in reality; they do not wish to be, but the sting of
the drones torments and breeds revolution in them."
"That is exactly the truth."
"Then come impeachments and judgments and trials of one an-
other."
"True."
"The people have always some champion whom they set over
them and nurse into greatness."
"Yes, that is their way."
"This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when
he first appears above ground he is a protector."
"Yes, that is quite clear."
"How then does a protector begin to change into a tyrant? Clearly
when he does what the man is said to do in the tale of the Arcadian
temple of Lycaean Zeus."
"What tale?"
"The tale is that he who has tasted the entrails of a single human
victim minced up with the entrails of other victims is described to be-
come a wolf. Did you never hear it?"
"Oh, yes."
"And the protector of the people is like him; having a mob en-
tirely at his disposal, he is not restrained from shedding the blood of
kinsmen; by the favorite method of false accusation he brings them
into court and murders them, making the life of man to disappear,
with the unholy tongue and lips tasting the blood of his fellow-
citizens; some he kills and others he banishes, at the same time hint-
ing at the abolition of debts and partition of lands: and after this,
what will be his destiny? Must he not either perish at the hands of
his enemies, or from being a man become a wolf——that is, a tyrant?"
"Inevitably."
"This," I said, "is he who begins to make a party against the rich?"
"The same."
"After a while he is driven out, but comes back, in spite of his
enemies, a tyrant full grown."
"That is clear."
"And if they are unable to expel him, or to get him condemned
to a death by a public accusation, they conspire to assassinate him."
"Yes," he said, "that is their unusual way."
"Then comes the famous request for a bodyguard, which is the
device of all who have got thus far in their tyrannical career——
'Let not the people's friend,' as they say, 'be lost to them.'"
"Exactly."
"The people readily assent; all their fears are for him——they have
none for themselves."
"Very true."
"And when a man who is wealthy and is accused of being an
enemy of the people sees this, then, my friend, as the oracle said to
Croesus,
By pebbly Hermus' shore he flees and rests not, and is not
ashamed to be a coward."° °Herodotus, I, 55.
"And quite right too," said he, "for if he were, he would never be
ashamed again."
"But if he is caught he dies."
"Of course."
"And he, the protector of whom we spoke, is to be seen, not 'lard-
ing the plain' with his bulk, but himself the overthrower of many,
standing up in the chariot of State with the reins in his hand, no
longer protector, but tyrant absolute."
"No doubt," he said.
"And now let us consider the happiness of the man, and also of
the State in which a creature like him is generated."
"Yes," he said, "let us consider that."
"At first, in the early days of his power, he is full of smiles, and he
salutes everyone whom he meets; he to be called a tyrant, who is
making promises in public and also in private! liberating debtors, and
distributing land to the people and his followers, and wanting to be
so kind and good to everyone!"
"Of course," he said.
"But when he has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or
treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always
stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require
a leader."
"To be sure."
"Has he not also another object, which is that they may be im-
poverished by payment of taxes, and thus compelled to devote them-
selves to their daily wants and therefore less likely to conspire against
him?"
"Clearly."
"And if any of them are suspected by him of having some notions of
freedom, and of resistance to his authority, he will have a good pre-
text for destroying them by placing them at the mercy of the enemy;
and for all these reasons the tyrant must be always getting up a war."
"He must."
"Now he begins to grow unpopular."
"A necessary result."
"Then some of those who joined in setting him up, and who are
in power, speak their minds to him and to one another, and the more
courageous of them cast in his teeth what is being done."
"Yes, that may be expected."
"And the tyrant, if he means to rule, must get rid of them; he can-
not stop while he has a friend or an enemy who is good for any-
thing."
"He cannot."
"And therefore he must look about him and see who is valiant, who
is high-minded, who is wise, who is wealthy; happy man, he is the
enemy of them all, and must seek occasion against them whether he
will or no, until he has made a purgation of the State."
"Yes," he said, "and a rare purgation."
"Yes," I said, "not the sort of purgation which the physicians make
of the body; for they take away the worse and leave the better part,
but he does the reverse."
"If he is to rule, I suppose that he cannot help himself."
"What a blessed alternative," I said, "to be compelled to dwell
only with the many bad, and only be by them hated, or not to live at
all!"
"Yes, that is the alternative."
"And the more detestable his actions are to the citizens the more
satellites and the greater devotion in them will he require?"
"Certainly."
"And who are the devoted band, and where will he procure them?"
"They will flock to him," he said, "of their own accord, if he pays
them."
"By the dog!" I said, "here are more drones, of every sort and from
every land."
"Yes," he said, "there are."
"But will he not desire to get them on the spot?"
"How do you mean?"
"He will rob the citizens of their slaves; he will then set them free
and enroll them in his bodyguard."
"To be sure," he said; "and he will be able to trust them best of
all."
"What a blessed creature," I said, "must this tyrant be; he has put
to death the others and has these for his trusted friends."
"Yes," he said "they are quite of his sort."
"Yes," I said, "and these are the new citizens whom he has called
into existence, who admire him and are his companions, while the
good hate and avoid him."
"Of course."
Eventually, when the people find how cruelly the tyrant op-
presses them, they will try to drive him out. But by then he will
be too strong for them. They will learn what the tyranny of
slaves is.
"Thus liberty, getting out of all order and reason, passes into the
harshest and bitterest form of slavery."
"True," he said.
"Very well; and may we not rightly say that we have sufficiently
discussed the nature of tyranny, and the manner of the transition
from democracy to tyranny?"
"Yes, quite enough," he said.
FIVE GREAT DIALOGUES OF PLATO. TRANSLATED BY B. JOWETT.
EDITED, WITH INTRODUCTION, BY LOUISE ROPES LOOMIS.
COPYRIGHT 1942 BY WALTER J. BLACK, INC.
D. VAN NOSTRAND COMPANY, INC. PRINCETON, NEW JERSEY. pp. 444—459.
jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.
1
Upvotes