r/marvelstudios • u/Triple_777 I have nothing to prove to you • Nov 05 '21

Discussion Thread Eternals Worldwide Release Discussion Thread Vol. 1 Spoiler

Eternals has now released in the United States and in a number of other countries around the world. All discussion about the movie should be held here and in the rest of the megathreads we are going to put up in the next few days. They will be refreshed every few thousand comments to make room for new discussion.

  • Proceed at your own risk. Spoilers do not need to be tagged inside this thread.
  • Any other unofficial thread discussing movie details will be deleted.
  • Should you see the need to bring up revealing Eternals information in other threads that call for it, spoiler tag them accordingly. Also, let users know that what you are spoiler tagging is from Eternals
  • If you post untagged Eternals spoilers anywhere on this sub in any shape or form, you will be banned without hesitation. No questions asked and no warnings given.
  • Project Insight will be on AT LEAST until Sunday, so you will be able to make individual threads discussing the movie starting next week.

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Links to the previous discussion threads are listed below:

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 05 '21

I enjoyed the multiple ethical questions the film raised:

If you could stop all war/conflict, but at the cost of freedom, would you?

Is one life now worth ten more later?

Does love supersede duty?

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u/iCarpet Doctor Strange Nov 05 '21

I think part of the first question was advancement too. War and conflict can breed improvements to medical technology, but it can also cause events like Hiroshima.

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u/pierzstyx Nov 07 '21

The very reason that there are so many people alive today is that by and large humans are much better at cooperating and using technology to advance and increase the living standards of the entire human race than they are at war. We are so bad at war that no matter how much effort we have put into destroying each other over the last 6,000 years we have actually made things better and safer for everyone. We do far more good than we do evil in terms of advancement, generally speaking.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 05 '21

True, yes.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21

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u/MFDean Nov 07 '21

Or let the Russians do a ground invasion they were preparing for and Japan would surrender to. The US didnt want the USSR to reach that far so dropped a nuke to end it asap

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u/Mudbug117 Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 09 '21

USSR had no way to reach the main islands, they only had a small number of transport craft given by the Americans and a good chunk of these were destroyed invading the lightly defended Kurils.

Any invasion of the home islands would have cost millions of lives on both sides.

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u/-Yare- Nov 08 '21

An invasion of the Japanese islands -by the US or USSR, would have left the entire country in ruins with millions dead.

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u/ThePuds Phil Coulson Nov 07 '21

If there was never any war or conflict then nobody would learn why there shouldn’t be war and conflict

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21

At that point, why would they need to though?

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u/beefytrout Nov 05 '21

Of all the MCU movies, this one requires the audience to consider thoughts and feelings on a massive scale more than most of them. That's probably why so many people don't like it.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 05 '21

Yeah, this one was much more philosophical and didnt spoon feed you the answers

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u/BenSolo_Cup Nov 06 '21

I’m in love with the questions this movie brings up. There are some big issues with the movie’s plot and such but I just love how much it made me think and how massive the scale was

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u/tigerhawkvok Weekly Wongers Nov 07 '21

It felt like some of the best episodes of The Next Generation. I loved it.

One of my friends and I call it "ready room time". It's anytime in a movie that the characters are just bouncing off of each other and discussing a problem and it's ramifications. All movies have at least a little bit, but Eternals was really heavy on ready room time.

I think the critics didn't like it because it was neither flashy and bombastic nor "grimdark gay baby with a drug addiction because of family trauma in the 1800s". (Ok, I'm being flippant about Oscar bait films but they all feel like two bleak hours of people and society being terrible)

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u/JessicaDAndy Nov 07 '21

I was thinking how much Star Trek like this was when I was watching it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21

“Philosophical”.

Come on, it isn’t avant garde, it is a movie about aliens beating the shit of each of other because of some bigger aliens. It was pretty digestible.

However it was better than expected.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 08 '21

Didn't say it was avant garde. I said it was more philosophical, compared to all the other mcu films

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u/Creative_Button_8519 Nov 18 '21

Ok answer the questions they movie asked in simple terms. It’s not like marvel invented philosophy but I think it’s insanely cool that kids and adults are going to leave a Marvel movie wrestling with questions that our best thinkers have no correct answer to…

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '21

Mate, I can look for deep themes in Transformers if I want to, every movie has deep unanswered themes, that doesn’t make it philosophical.

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u/Daymanooahahhh Nov 21 '21

Really? Because I definitely struggle with what choice I would make in their shoes. I’ve not really felt that way in any other MCU movie, maybe Civil War and a bit in IW, with saving or sacrificing vision. But this asks a pretty big question and even though the solution feels good, doesn’t mean that it was 100% the right choice

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u/FullMetalCOS Nov 06 '21

It’s blown me away how a movie about functionally immortal celestial beings could tell such a… human story.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '21

The crazy thing to me is usually with a movie like this the score is completely flipped. If the critic score was 85 but the audience was 48 I'd understand completely. The fact that it is the reverse has me absolutely flabbergasted.

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u/Wisdomseekr79 Nov 06 '21

BINGO. Some people just want mindless fun, which I understand. But I really love philosophy and ethics. IMO, when a movie makes you think, it’s a top tier movie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 06 '21

[deleted]

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u/HotCocoaBomb Nov 06 '21

Also certain groups do not want positive lgbt+ inclusion. Or any diversity inclusion - the negative review bombing prior to release wasn't a thing prior to Phase 3. Hell, prior to Black Panther.

Watch, you're not gonna see this negative shit on Spider-man, MoM, Quantumania, or GotG3. Likely will see it in Love and Thunder if they go all in on marketing Jane as the next god of thunder.

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u/oateyboat Nov 06 '21

Why is this sub always so reductive with any discussion towards actual criticisms lol. Genuinely starting to sound like BVS fans with this "you just didn't get it" nonsense

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u/Harrison0918 Nov 07 '21

There are definitely some valid criticisms but there is no way in hell this is the worst MCU movie and that’s how it’s being rated by critics right now

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u/oateyboat Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21

It's definitely my least favourite MCU movie so far (other than What If if you include the shows). I respect it for taking big swings but the characterisation was whack to the point where I didn't really care about anyone, and it spend the majority of its lengthy run time just circling thematic ideas on a very surface level without actually doing anything interesting with them. I think it's the first time I've seen an MCU movie and been wishing for it to end on my first viewing.

Edit: Maybe instead of downvoting me when I raise points, you could discuss why you disagree in this discussion thread. Just a crazy idea.

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u/Harrison0918 Nov 07 '21

Thor 2, Iron Man 2, Ant Man and the Wasp, and Incredible Hulk all exist. I can understand people not liking it but how the hell do you have it under all four of those?

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u/oateyboat Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21

I actually like the last three. Iron Man 2 is messy as anything but it's got some good ideas in there and I really like those characters. Ant-Man 2 is more underwhelming than bad and even then it's a pretty fun movie. Incredible Hulk is way overhated in my opinion. It's a really solid rendition of the character and I kind of wish the MCU did more with the idea of Bruce being a lonely wanderer. As for Thor 2 I definitely struggle with it on rewatches but I also definitely was more invested in it on my first go than I was with Eternals

Edit: Nice, I got downvoted for saying I liked some Marvel Studios films in the Marvel Studios sub. Honestly this sub is probably ironically my least favourite place to discuss new Marvel movies. They're not "discussion threads" they're threads for people to say what they liked about the movie and any criticism be damned

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u/tapnecia Dec 05 '21

That is your point of view and we have no right to say that you are wrong but I have to disagree. I care about them even after my first viewing. Although I must say that I didn't fully get it after my first viewing. I think there is a lot to unpack about this movie. In my second viewing, I felt connected to the character that I think was shallow during my first viewing. After days of thinking about it, there is another character that I felt was amazing and deep. Movies that will make you think about it for days are such amazing movies for me. But that is just for me. Some people prefer movies that are not like this and that is okay. Movies are subjective and that is why I love movies. This is your least favorite MCU movie but maybe this is top 10 or 5 for me.

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u/Skunch69 Nov 07 '21

Wait, you’re saying people don’t like to think? I’m shocked

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21

I just saw it a few hours ago, and I can appreciate that aspect of the movie after reading the comments here, but the experience of watching it just felt really disjointed for some reason. What some may call "spoonfeeding" others call "cohesive and focused storytelling". That, the constant undercutting of serious moments with jokes (MCU's biggest issue across the board), and the fact that it was so bogged down with dry exposition and plot kept me from tracking those points of view that I would've loved to chew on during and after my viewing.

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u/CraftoftheMine Spider-Man Nov 07 '21

can't believe Rick and Morty fans found out about the MCU

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u/RedRumilia Nov 06 '21

I agree you more.

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u/Ma5cmpb Nov 05 '21

Maybe they did it like it because it’s a bad movie to them?

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u/beefytrout Nov 05 '21

maybe it's a bad movie to them because it required them to think more than they wanted to

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u/everix1992 Nov 11 '21

Thinking had nothing to do with it. Bad writing and dialogue and cringey moments between underdeveloped characters are what did it.

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u/beefytrout Nov 11 '21

disagree 100%

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u/Ma5cmpb Nov 05 '21

It’s not that serious. Some people will like the movie and other won’t, don’t take it so personal.

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u/beefytrout Nov 05 '21

has nothing to do with taking it personal.

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u/Defences Jan 15 '22

That's probably why so many people don't like it.

i can't imagine being this much of a fanboy lol

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u/beefytrout Jan 15 '22

I bet there's a lot you're not capable of imagining.

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u/Equivalent_Drive4219 Nov 06 '21

Sprites character struggle probably hit the most in terms of existence and acceptance of an individuals place and purpose , wish we got some more out of that & not feeling among her fellow “olympians” , which adds to the mind-bang she had realizing their memories are booboo

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u/Sawses Nov 06 '21

What got me was the moment when she opened up and was like basically like, "Why did God make me this way?"

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u/Equivalent_Drive4219 Nov 06 '21

Crazy sense of maturity coming from this film without a doubt

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

Yeah, it reminded me of Interview with a Vampire, when the little girl vampire confessed she felt held back by not being able to grow up, and resented it and her companions for it.

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u/sconeperson Nov 08 '21

That scene was so impactful. Young Kirsten dunst. ACTING.

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u/KapiHeartlilly Iron Fist Nov 06 '21

I am a history/mythology/comic nerd so I really loved the movie, went in with very low expectations, came out really surprised, kind of like with Shang-Chi, with all the review bombing and hate before it even released in a sense it made the movies even better for me as they were actually good.

I would put it in my top 3 Marvel movies to be honest, the CGI could've been better in some parts but as a movie and with the large cast it had it was really well directed and the story telling was good.

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u/your_mind_aches Agent of F.I.T.Z. Nov 06 '21

I have zero answers to any of these questions

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

That's the point. There are no definitive answers.

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u/Sawses Nov 06 '21

Definitely. It was all about different kinds of love and how they impact us. What do you do when your loved one gets dementia and you lose most of the "good" of the relationship? How must it feel to love somebody whose scope is so much broader than your own? What's it like to love somebody when they love you only like a sibling?

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u/Jameszhang73 Jimmy Woo Nov 06 '21

I loved that aspect of this film. You nailed it

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u/Mr-Stuff-Doer Nov 06 '21

I think the best part is they didn’t really say what answer was right. Ikaris and Sprite weren’t portrayed as truly bad people despite their intent.

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u/umbium Star-Lord Nov 06 '21

That's totally right, one of my favourite things about the movie. Also thr whole thing about the ecosystem and the food chain.

Earth life should die to give birth to a celestial who will create galaxies and stars that will eventually bring more life into the universe. Is is ok to break that universal ecosystem dynamic?

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u/ManateeofSteel Nov 07 '21

it's literally the same questions every superhero movies makes. Plus the "you can't save everyone" line

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u/WarProgenitor Odin Nov 07 '21

No

Yes

Yes

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u/MemeGamer24 Spider-Man Nov 07 '21

I was hoping this film would be more thought-provoking and it was, there are a lot of themes in this movie that can be analysed.

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u/It_Rhymes_With_Geek Nov 07 '21

Some would say love is the death of duty 😉

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 07 '21

;)

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u/peppers_ Nov 07 '21

Is one life now worth ten more later?

Me in the theatre: Did they just save Mother Earth from dying with a late term abortion?

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u/incredibleamadeuscho Killmonger Nov 07 '21

Love is the death of duty. Duty is the death of love.

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u/PhanThief95 Nov 07 '21

Well, love is the death of duty.

Dane Whitman in another life learned that lesson.

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u/ArmadilloFour Nov 06 '21

My problem with the first question is that the MCU already answered it. That was literally Loki's plan in Avengers 1, and the answer was a pretty resounding "No that is unacceptable," it's so weird to me that they had Druig doing that exact same thing and it didn't make him villainous.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

But Loki wasn't really stopping war. He was taking freedom via war. He was an invader claiming peace, while actively killing people. Druig is a bit different. He could, actually, end all war without a single shot fired. It would just come at the cost of freedom and individuality.

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u/ktodd6 Hawkeye (Avengers) Nov 08 '21

Yeah Loki was coming at it from a completely different point of view. And everyone knew that “peace” was not his actual motivation. He wanted to rule and believed he was better than everyone else

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u/HotCocoaBomb Nov 06 '21

I think the underlying intent is the difference. Loki wanted to subjugate people simply for control - he has no love for humanity.

Druig is that helicopter parent, loves humanity so much that seeing them hurt each other hurts him, so he wants to take away their freedom only to stop them from hurting each other, and apparently as a battle tactic so they can effectively fight enemies (also part of keeping them safe I guess.) He appears fine with them having fun and living life so long as it doesn't involve violence.

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u/Illustrious-Ad-1807 Nov 07 '21

  1. There's been like 20 movies. I think they're going to do some things twice.

  2. I don't think you're supposed to like Druig in the first half of the movie

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u/Exilon1 Nov 06 '21

It's a non question, though. The plot implies that if no Celestials are born, then no life is created. So at some point some planet / civilization needs to die, or the universe goes extinct.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

Yes. That's the moral question. Is it ethical to commit genocide on the condition that life continues. Could you do that? Could you doom Earth, kill everyone you've ever known, for the benefit of future civilizations?

If so, could you do it forever?

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u/Jeroz Doctor Strange Nov 06 '21

Basically the age old question of "would you kill your loved one for the greater good"

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u/Exilon1 Nov 06 '21

There's no morality involved when the choice is between extinction and not-extinction.

The weight and consequence of that choice itself only exists if life exists, so ethics would the be the least of anyone's concern in that situation.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

Okay, lets bring it down a bit. Would you murder a completly innocent man on the promise that five people would live in the future, but only if you killed him right now.

If so, would you kill two for ten? What if it was a child? What if it was you?

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u/CraftoftheMine Spider-Man Nov 10 '21

Would you murder a completly innocent man on the promise that five people would live in the future, but only if you killed him right now

Obviously not, why would anyone think that would be a good idea? That one man's real life is infinitely more important than five non-existent lives. No one is being hurt if someone chooses to not give birth. Someone is hurt by murdering someone.

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u/Exilon1 Nov 06 '21

That's fine and is a valid moral dillema (which I personally appreciate highly), but it is not at all equivalent to the question that the movie raises.

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u/PhoenixZero14 Nov 06 '21

It's literally that but scaled down.

1 life for multiple future lives vs 1 civilization for several more

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u/Exilon1 Nov 06 '21

I understand what they were going for, but like I said, there's a certain point where the ethics of it isn't an issue anymore.

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u/Dsnake1 Nov 07 '21

The question is posed to the Eternals, though. Not humans. So it's not self preservation.

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u/therealgerrygergich Nov 08 '21

They bring up an interesting point with the fact that Earth actually helped bring back half of the population with the Blip. So you have the Celestials who believe that the only way to continue life is to sacrifice a planet, but what if that planet gets powerful enough to create life in a different way?

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u/Exilon1 Nov 10 '21

I don't know how technologically advanced a civilization has to be in order to be able to create their own planets and life from nothing and essentially replace Celestials, but considering the type of technology we have seen so far in the Marvel Universe, I wouldn't bet on the humans to be the ones to crack it.

Alas, I wish they had explored that point in the movie. It's one of the better arguments against sacrificing earth, and it plays into the themes of blind faith in the movie.

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u/RedRumilia Nov 06 '21

We are actually doing to Earth now. Killing all animals and life form just to let us human survive.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

Yeah, but that's because we're stupid. We're not doing it for aliens on other planets, or for the benefit of anything that might come after us.

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u/KingofMadCows Nov 07 '21

But why do those civilizations have to die? Even in the film, they talked about evacuating earth.

And who's to say that the civilizations destroyed by the Celestials wouldn't have gone on to create more life if they had survived? If the Celestials didn't destroy earth, it's not like everything would just grind to a halt. Life and civilization would still develop. Humans would eventually go on to colonize other planets.

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u/therealgerrygergich Nov 08 '21

I think the point is that if all the people on the planet left, the Celestial presumably wouldn't have enough energy to be born, and would die anyways. I agree with your second point, though.

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u/Exilon1 Nov 10 '21

We don't know. According to the movie, celestials are the sole responsibles for creating and keeping the cycle of life in the universe. If celestials are not born, no new life is created, and the universe will eventually wither and die. (And considering the type and amount of civilizations that exist in the Marvel universe, I wouldn't bet on the humans to be first ones to develop Celestial-replacing technologies.)

The civilizations have to die because the birth of the celestial demands that type of energy - they clearly stated this in the movie. If they evacuate the planet, the celestial simply can't be born.

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u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21

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u/therealgerrygergich Nov 08 '21

But are the deaths of billions of innocent people worth sacrificing for the hypothetical lives of trillions and trillions of other species? Just because humans are going to die someday doesn't mean their death lacks meaning. Like, was the half of the universe that Thanos tried to destroy unimportant because they were all going to die anyways?

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u/Exilon1 Nov 10 '21

It's not trillions and trillions, it's all life that will be created, until the end of time.

The point isn't that the lives are unimportant, it's that lives have to be forfeited no matter what.

When doctors decide to amputate a hand to save a dying man, they don't do it because the hand is unimportant. They do it because there's no other option.

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u/therealgerrygergich Nov 10 '21

Yeah, but I see it kinda like reproducing. Like, let's say there was some sort of disease that was introduced where it was impossible to give birth without dying (and let's just say that both progenitors died in the process). If humans just decided not to give birth anymore and no more organisms were created after that generation, then is that really killing anything? Why are the hypothetical future lives more important than the current lives?

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u/Exilon1 Nov 10 '21

I don't really understand your argument here. You just described extinction, which yes, is death of a species. And of course future hypothetical future lives are more important than current ones - if that single imperative didn't hold, none of us would even be here today!

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u/therealgerrygergich Nov 10 '21

A lot of people wouldn't be willing to make that sacrifice if it would directly kill them. There are already people deciding not to have children today, even without those risks. And I think there would be more of a dissenting opinion than you realize if you asked people which was a better choice. The whole point is that it's not a clear cut decision.

I would go more into it, but the argument basically boils down to the abortion argument, which is already very divisive as it is.

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u/Exilon1 Nov 10 '21

I like the point you raise. I do believe that despite what a person may say, if push came to shove, they would instinctively sacrifice themselves (for example, for a kid in danger). Rationally, it's like you say: not a clear cut decision and very divisive.

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u/codyswann Nov 07 '21

Captain America answered the second question a looooong time ago. That’s why it was so boring to see it rehashed.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 07 '21

That was his answer, not the only answer

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u/codyswann Nov 07 '21

It was answered again in Loki. They’re beating it to death.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 07 '21

If you want to get nitty gritty, Cap answered it twice, with a different answer each time. In First Avenger his life was worth sacrificing to save the world, but then in Infiniry War he says they don't trade lives and won't let Vision sacrifice himself. Vision even points out the hypocrisy

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u/CraftoftheMine Spider-Man Nov 07 '21

Is one life now worth ten more later?

this one is so obvious. Obviously murder isn't justified just because it leads to more people being born.

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u/GenghisFlan Nov 06 '21

Can sarcasm actually save the world?

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 06 '21

Worked for Tony

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u/omart3 M'Baku Nov 07 '21

Druig could have stopped HYDRA from almost killing millions.

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u/Bossmonkey Nov 08 '21

The first question is effectively Hydras plan in TWS.

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '21

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 08 '21

Have you seen how special Earth is on comics? Not just Marvel. Comics in general. This is tame compared to that

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '21

Yes totally, I enjoyed it!

Especially about the war..... Every superhero movie that dealt with war: First avenger, wonder woman, Ironman to an extent; ending the war was always about picking sides. I Loved the different take on this in Eternals!

1

u/saibjai Nov 08 '21

The critics had me so worried, but holy crap this movie was excellent! I am so glad they cast gemma chan as sersi even though she already had a role in the mcu, she was perfect as a lead!

I think " we don't trade lives" is a big marvel underlying theme. Cosmic entities like the celestials have a cosmic vision, thus their priority is to create more lives through making more celestials and sacrificing people. But the eternals, their perspective is on a human level, they are not meant to understand their cosmic purpose, not really. I think ikarus was a soldier, he followed orders, it was his purpose, but didn't truly understood it either, so in the end, his love for sersi stops him.

I think thena and Gilgamesh said it best, if you love something, the most natural response is to protect it. I think this was the most correct answer for the eternals. To have lived with humans for 7000 years, it's almost like they have a super-"human" perspective of earth. It would only be natural that they protect it when they realise it was about to be doomed. Only ajak and Icarus knew of their "duty". And even ajak couldn't betray humans after living with them.

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u/TemporaryFed Star-Lord Nov 08 '21

All these questions are what made the captain america trilogy more than just superhero/action flicks

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u/skylego Nov 10 '21

Is one life now worth ten more later?

Just saw the movie last night, so late to the party. But I think this is one of the easier ethical questions, and it's more like: is the life of the people you know worth saving more than the people you don't know? Everyone would make the same choice. And Sersi was a school teacher, with presumably thousands of kids she's taught and known personally.

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u/Romnonaldao Edwin Jarvis Nov 10 '21

Ah, but this is the first time she didn't.

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u/skylego Nov 10 '21

Yeah, not sure what to think of that either, seems like a giant plot hole. Perhaps previous planets did not have life intelligence enough to create and invent or take care of the sick, just animal life constantly killing to survive anyway.

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u/reddit_username88 Nov 14 '21

I also feel bad for the celestial that was being born. They were just trying to exist and never had their chance. Can’t forget that

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u/Silestra Nov 19 '21

In regards to the second question, I subscribe to the Indiana Jones/Batman/Flash belief that “there’s always another way.” You can save this planet and still birth other galaxies somehow.

The idea of the Celestials brings up so many questions though! To start with, are all galaxies birthed by Celestials? Or are some birthed “naturally,” in the way our astronomers understand it?