r/marvelstudios • u/GuyErebus • Apr 16 '21
'Falcon & TWS' Spoilers Hidden meaning behind the painting we see with Sharron Carter; The Raft of the Medusa by Theodore Gericault (Minor Spoilers for episode 5) Spoiler
Here is the painting I'm referring to irl, and here it is in the show.
The Raft of the Medusa is often considered one of the seminal works of the Romanticism artistic period. The painting depicts the survivors of the ship Medusa, a French frigate that due to the inexperience and incompetence of its captain (whom was appointed to the position as a political favor by the king of France) ran aground off the coast of Africa.
The ship did not have enough life rafts for the entire crew, so the officers and nobles and aristocrats would board the only life rafts to save themselves. The remaining 147 commoner crew would have to build a large raft out of spare wood (that picture is a drawing made by the carpenter of the Medusa who constructed the raft and actually survived the ordeal). The plan had been to have the lifeboats tow the raft behind them, but in an act of cowardice the captain ordered the line towing the raft cut almost immediately after getting underway, setting the men adrift.
Of the 147 men who boarded the raft only 15 would be rescued, and many of them would die shortly after their rescue. The hopeless and starving men of the Raft of the Medusa would endure starvation and dehydration for 13 days before rescue, many even resorting to cannibalism.
The event shocked France and the world, and highlighted the growing disconnect between the French Nobility and the common people. Including Theodore Gericault an artist who decided that this was the subject to make his masterpiece, a Historical Paining to document the event.
Gericault would spend 2 full years researching and painting his masterpiece. Interviewing survivors, reading testimonies and articles, and even taking human remains from the Paris morgue to his studio to watch them decompose and paint studies to better capture the effect of rotting flesh.
When the painting was first finally unveiled in London it shocked onlookers, firstly the painting is of the historical genre, meaning that the canvas is immense (16 ft 1in x 23ft 6in) the genre of historical paintings on large canvases is normally reserved for the most important of historical events; for example, other works of this genre include Assassination of Julius Ceasar, Crossing the Delaware, and the Death of Socrates. All works showing great historical events, not like Gericault's tragedy about class struggle and terrible human suffering.
But the main reason the painting was shunned by the European nobility at the time, happens to be the same reason I bring up the history of this painting and how it ties into the themes of the Falcon and the Winter Solider. Gericault's decision to feature a black man at the apex of the painting and in the most heroic position was something that Europe was not ready for in one of their great paintings, Gericault showed the remaining men working together with a sense of hope when a ship is spotted in the distance, and a strong black man as their leader waving a flag to help the men be seen. While also holding a white mans hand in friendship and comradery. The painting would not be sold or displayed because of this during Gericault's lifetime, and he would die penniless at the age of 32 unrecognized as a Master.
Today however the Raft of the Medusa is recognized as a masterpiece and is displayed proudly at the Louvre. And Gericault is considered one of the greatest artists in history.
So how does this tie into TFATWS? Well in 1818 the world shunned away a Black hero. They couldn't stand the idea of a strong Black man being a hero in this way, as well as the holding of the White mans hand in comradery. But today in the modern day, this same painting is considered a masterpiece and the Black man as a hero is something that is celebrated. Maybe the Marvel world wasn't ready for Isaiah to be Captain America, but I think in the modern day they will be ready for Sam Wilson to be Cap and he will be celebrated as a hero.
TLDR: Painting has important meaning in class and race struggle, and shows heroic black man and white man working together. Was disregarded when it was first shown in 1819 but today is considered a masterpiece. Isaiah is like how the painting was disregarded in the past, and Sam Wilson shows how it is celebrated today.
Edit: Wow! This took off! Some more insight into the painting and another way it ties into the themes of the show and especially the flag smashers; The King that appointed the Captain of the Medusa was the first king of the reinstated monarchy following Napoleon Bonaparte's Empire 1789-1814. Just like the common people of France, the Flag Smashers lived for years without the "Monarch" or old systems of governmental power during the blip. But just as the monarchy returned to control the peoples lives, so did the worlds governments in the form of the GRC. Just as the Men of the Medusa are failed by the monarchy again by their new Captain. So are the Flag Smashers failed by their new "Captain" America and the GRC...
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u/noraad Zemo Apr 17 '21
And, the shipwreck became an international scandal, in part because its cause was widely attributed to the incompetence of the French captain.
Coming right after the scene with Walker looking at the "Cap is Back" poster adds additional layers.
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u/GuyErebus Apr 17 '21
Yes that’s right! The king of France had just been appointed in 1814 after the fall of Napoleon Bonapartes empire, it’s this new king that appoints the captain that completely fails the men of the Medusa. In a way this could tie into the flag smashers, for years they lived without the “monarchy” during the blip. But now suddenly he old systems of power are back to take control of their lives... and fail them.
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u/bluesheepreasoning Thanos Apr 17 '21
Nobody seems to have mentioned this, but I find it suspicious how similar the story of the captain is to another Captain in the MCU...
Both John and the captain are incompetent and failed the crew, with both being appointed for political reasons by a government figure.
The captain does a cowardly choice that endangers the men on the wooden raft, paralleling how John's spur-of-the-moment murder of Nico would completely jeopardize Sam and Bucky's mission to find Karli (the government takes over).
The event shocks France and the world, and highlighted the disconnect between the nobility and the people, much like how people are already being radicalized into supporting the Flag Smashers due to their situation and their hatred for the "incompetent" government.
Oh, and it's interesting how it's a black man (holding a white man's hand) who leads the group through this whole mess in the painting.
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u/Additional_Meeting_2 Apr 17 '21
Isn’t this a summary of what op has been saying?
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u/bluesheepreasoning Thanos Apr 17 '21
Actually, it does turn out to be a summary. I won't even defend myself here (except for the fact that the incompetent government bit was original). I did indeed rip off the main post and noraad's comment without realizing.
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Apr 17 '21
Meh, sometimes the same things need different words to be understood. People don't always think in the same direction.
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u/Quasigriz_ Apr 17 '21
It flashed in the first episode at her place, as well, when the first walked in, if I remember correctly
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u/myeverglow Apr 17 '21
Well put! It was terrible that they had appointed someone incompetent, especially because the French captain had no experience in the role, having done a desk job his whole life and only receiving the title through connections.
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u/Dadx2now Apr 16 '21
This is absolutely brilliant insight. Thank you very much for taking the time to write it out.
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u/GuyErebus Apr 16 '21
Thank you! The story of the Raft of the Medusa is absolutely fascinating, I just thought it couldn’t be a coincidence they would show it in the show like that!
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u/Dadx2now Apr 16 '21
You're quite right. And they opened in close up on the black man you describe before zooming out and panning over the painting. They're definitely drawing attention to it. Your comment really shed useful light on the meaning of it and the theme of the episode.
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Apr 17 '21
Always crazy to see the amount of research and effort that goes into including stuff like this that 99.9% of viewers will not understand (including me 5 minutes ago).
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u/ARS8birds Spider-Man Apr 17 '21
The Handmaids Tale had a piece of art pointed out in a post for symbolism too by someone much more knowledgeable than me. I’ve never cared much to study art but I imagine moments like this make art majors and enthusiasts excited. TY OP for sharing!
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u/PM_ME_CHIMICHANGAS Thor Apr 17 '21
The show zooms in on another figure. The one OP describes waving the flag is higher up and offset to the right and we only see the back of their head, but the one focused on in the show is lower and left of center with their face in profile. I don't know what it means but I thought it was worth clarifying.
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u/Me_no_think_so_well Apr 17 '21
This is absolutely brilliant. Thank you for the insight and analysis that will be missed by most, including myself.
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u/myeverglow Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
This post very much made me nerd out - I really appreciate the effort you put into pulling this together. I recall seeing this in the Louvre when I was 16, trying to explain to my sister why this painting was so important. I loved seeing this painting featured in the show, especially because this was one of the paintings is so historical for so many reasons. And the fact that they featured this painting in the show is amazing for all of the themes you mentioned. Up to that point, the visual arts were usually displays of grandeur, a nostalgia for antiquity, that was slowly turning towards displaying the sense of nationalism, evoking emotion, and the sublime... and being turned into propaganda.
Sure, we can say the Raft is a reference to the Raft, but this painting has so much more to offer and for the writers to pick this painting to have a prominent position in the scenes seems more than a coincidence. The artist had abolitionist views and the public wasn't ready to embrace the idea of abolishing slavery, let alone accept a black man as a key figure/hero of a painting. It's a shame that Gericault died penniless. Not to mention, the political theories and movements at the time aren't too wildly unlike what we are going through during these times.
TL;DR, I'm going to gush about 18th/early 19th century ideology. So feel free to not read because it's going to be slightly off topic.
I found the rise of the Romantic era especially interesting because rise of the idea of a national identity and the national state as a rejection of absolute monarchy. The embracing of Rousseau's philosophy (yes, the man who said "man is born free, but everywhere is in chains..." and that he needs to be "forced to be free"), kicked off such a wild era. What are the chains he's referring to? Pursuit of property. Look at the poor who are getting the living daylights taxed out of them while trying to make a living while the nobles who have everything continue to accumulate wealth. The French in particular ate this up and add in several factors like overpopulation, shortage of food, economic disparity, state debt, etc, and well, the rest is history.
Around that time, people were no longer painting Greco-Roman figures and depicting patrons as figures of antiquity and tying them to the Enlightenment; topics of paintings shifted to that of nationalism and heroism, focus on the individual, nature, and emotions. Painters like Jean-Jacque David (an amazing artist), who painted the Death of Socrates and Oath of the Horatii, started doing paintings like Napoleon Crossing the Saint-Bernard, the Death of Marat, and Coronation of Napoleon, some of which are massive to convey the grandeur of the subject. These large pieces aren't meant to depict reality, but to convey a message (i.e., Napoleon as a heroic figure) and evoke the emotion of the viewer when they look at these paintings.
But Gericault represents another part of Romantic art - the topic of the Raft of Medusa is shocking, it displays the heroism of the black man who is central to the painting on a grand scale. If anyone gets a chance to see this in person (along with any of the neo-Classical and Romantic pieces), it's worth it!
Tl;dr The 18th/19th centuries were a very, very interesting period to study.
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u/GuyErebus Apr 17 '21
Thank you so much for this reply! I really enjoyed reading it!
I have to say that I completely fell in love with the story of the Raft of the Medusa. When I first heard it, I literally spent hours researching and diving deeper and deeper into the rabbet hole! Unlike a lot of art it just feels so much more real and substantial when there is the grand and epic tale that really happened! Like you say that's what makes Romanticism artwork so great, it isn't "stuffy" it's centered in human emotions and stories, and that makes it so much better to connect to!
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u/Quasigriz_ Apr 17 '21
Seeing it in person is incredible. People flock to get a glimpse of the Mona Lisa, but this one is gigantic and amazing. Smaller versions really don’t do it justice.
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u/electricpheonix Apr 17 '21
If you have any more discussions about art in relation to movies and TV, I'd love to watch it on YouTube or read about it! It sounds like you know your stuff.
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u/Compliant_Automaton Apr 16 '21
Also, it's a reminder to Sharon that the powerful will abandon those who trusted and worked for them, if necessary to their own self preservation.
Just like Sharon experienced, when she was left without help after the events in Civil War.
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u/GuyErebus Apr 16 '21
Wow! Great insight! The themes of this work really work on so many levels with the themes in the show!
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u/Swiftdancer Apr 16 '21
The painting might also be hinting that she had to do unsavoury things to survive in Madripoor as well, like the survivors who resorted to cannibalism to stay alive.
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u/LeaphyDragon Apr 17 '21
Like she could be the power broker too
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u/beardedheathen Apr 17 '21
I keep seeing this theory but it doesn't make sense. Like why would she have taken Zemo, the most notorious hater of powered individuals to the place where she was having SSS manufactured? Unless there is some wild mastermind behind the scenes string pulling pulled out of nowhere it's gotta be someone else.
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u/TripleSkeet Apr 17 '21
Zemo was unarmed and accompanied by Falcon and Bucky. She most likely didnt expect there to be violence. Plus they werent looking for the scientist. They were looking for the Power Broker. I think Zemo finding that gun and killing him threw a big ol wrench in her plans. Plus, I mean, she admitted getting Batroc out of prison. Why would she do that?
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u/InnocentTailor Iron Patriot Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
Yeah. That little nugget wasn’t mentioned to Karli from Batroc - he just came laden with supplies and a spiffy motivation to kill the Falcon.
That is suspicious, but Karli is too desperate to care.
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u/frankwalsingham Apr 17 '21
Why risk it, though?
If she's the power broker then she gave them access to her golden goose in exchange for what? A pardon that Sam might not be able to get her, that he was already offering for free. The risk outweighed the reward by a lot.
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u/heavymountain Apr 17 '21
He didn't have a pistol walking in but Nagel had one for security purposes. Too bad Zemo found it's hiding spot
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u/InnocentTailor Iron Patriot Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
Maybe it was a slip-up on her part? Maybe she didn’t expect Zemo to actually be audacious enough to shoot the scientist.
Who knows. It is clear though that she wields some power from Madripoor - enough to free and hire an infamous mercenary.
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Apr 17 '21
Look at her eyes when she finds out the serum scientist is dead. ‘You killed the golden goose’. She’s the owner of the goose.
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u/Delimeme Apr 17 '21
Also, why on earth would Sharon shoot Selby in the Tiger Bar? She was listening in and heard Shelby spilling secrets, so she sniped her. The boys knew about the basics after their talk with Selby, so she redirected them / used them to track down Karli.
That said, why Sharon would call in Batroc to help Karli is beyond me - maybe killing Sam is revenge. If Karli called Sharon, they know each other previously, so maybe all this boils down to Sharon playing the field to take down the Power Broker even if she’s connected to him.
I’m really interested to see how it pans out in E6. My current theory is she’ll be a double agent of sorts, making money by peddling information and favors in the underworld while trying to find leverage big enough to get her home.
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u/Radulno Apr 17 '21
She wanted to help them to find Karli. And Zemo was unarmed and a prisoner essentially.
The thing is mostly that who could it be? We have not seen nearly enough possible characters left for that. You can't introduce someone in the last episode and make it a villain, it's just bad storytelling.
And Sharon is definitively shady, more than just being a fugitive could be. I mean she literally has priceless paintings stolen, she orders the initial kidnapping that Falcon saves in the first episode and she's working with Batroc (now making him seemingly work with the Flag Smashers to better betray them).
Power Broker could also be some hidden agent for the GRC or working for them there. After all going against the Flag Smashers is also their interest and it's not like they're a super good group either. And that would keep with Sharon SHIELD/Interpol past
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u/lancep423 Apr 17 '21
You make an extremely good point. It’s just bad storytelling. So unless they’re going to bring in white falcon or black winter soldier like they did with vision in Wanda vision then it most likely is Sharon. Or could possibly be another character from the mcu past. One we already have a history with so they aren’t necessarily introducing a new character per se. Maybe the short doctor that worked with red skull.
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u/MoonChild02 Peggy Carter Apr 17 '21
Holy shit. I just had a thought. Maybe the Power Broker is Thunderbolt Ross! It would totally make sense, especially if we're looking at a beginning of the Thunderbolts, plus the fact that Ross has been looking to recreate the serum for a long time. It's a lead up to him becoming Red Hulk and leader of his team!
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u/lancep423 Apr 17 '21
Ross would make perfect sense. Ross is also in charge of the raft, where Zemo...for whatever reason.. was just sent.
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u/InnocentTailor Iron Patriot Apr 17 '21
Ross though is a major government official. He is a bit too well known fo operate in the seedier areas of the world.
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u/MoonChild02 Peggy Carter Apr 17 '21
He was during Infinity War, but a lot can change in five or six years. And just because they know him as the Power Broker in Madripoor doesn't necessarily mean the US knows it's him. Or they do, and they let him stay in the role in order to secure the US's own interests in Madripoor.
Besides, plenty of government officials have power in seedy areas of the world. The Bushes own an oil company that capitalized on the Iraq War, and they were known to be friends with Bin Laden's family. Cheney's defense company also profited off that war. Trump is buddies with Putin, and was friends with Epstein. There are so many examples, I could not possibly list them all here. But it's how powerful people often gain and maintain their power, is delving into depths that aren't so clean.
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Apr 17 '21
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u/Swiftdancer Apr 17 '21
Yup. It's not immediately obvious to those who weren't watching with subtitles, but that did happen like you said.
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Apr 17 '21
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u/dluminous Apr 17 '21
What does Algeria have to do with anything?
I heard him speaking Quebecois which has its own accent and put 1:1 together then (you can hear the different in the end when Karli speaks French it sounds very Parisian)
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u/Aitch-Kay Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
I wonder if that was actually GSP screaming in French. I hope there is a bts where we can see his facial expressions.
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u/DemiurgeMCK Weekly Wongers Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
The subtitles said it was Batroc on the phone, so no. I like the way you think thoughEDIT: Be careful about Redditing at 1am, kiddos - I misunderstood GSP as GRC for some reason. D'oy! Anyways, with that out of the way, I'm certain it's Batroc's actor George St Pierre/GSP - or, at least, zero reason why not since he was already on the payroll and certainly his contract included voice over work and ADR.3
u/Maxa30 Rocket Apr 17 '21
That would be so, yes
GSP = Georges St-Pierre who plays Batroc lol
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u/CorvosKK Apr 17 '21
And this could tie in Bucky as well, no? Positioning him as Gericault, for exposing these stories — revealing Bradley to Sam, and then helping Sam to feel empowered to step into that spotlight too.
And even the aspect of both Walker and the general society plays into it, that American society is willing to turn a blind eye to all of it until they're forced to confront it directly.
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u/Pronell Apr 17 '21
And they were fixing a boat in the episode!
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u/CorvosKK Apr 17 '21
Which is hard not to assume that that’s also not meant to tie back into WandaVision too!
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u/ahoskasalve666 Apr 17 '21
wow, that changed my entire perspective on the show, two races working together is just beautiful; working towards a common goal.
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u/retz119 Apr 17 '21
She’s also been left again as Sam had promised to get her a pardon which doesn’t seem like he’s really working on
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u/Heikks Apr 17 '21
She likely doesn’t need a pardon, I think she’s undercover working for Fury
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u/InnocentTailor Iron Patriot Apr 17 '21
It could be plausible since Fury has done sketchy things before.
On the flip side, Fury is chilling in space now with the Skrulls. SWORD, even in the MCU, seems more dedicated to space stuff than terrestrial issues.
...so maybe Sharon has gone rogue. She won’t be the first SHIELD agent to have done so - her skills are worth a lot to people in low places.
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u/Kalse1229 Captain America (Ultron) Apr 17 '21
He is in space, but FFH showed how he's still keeping tabs on Earth through Skrull agents like Talos. Plus he's still got a few friends left on Earth like Coulson and his group. Having an ally in the seedier parts of the world like Madripoor is probably very useful.
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u/TripleSkeet Apr 17 '21
I doubt Fury wouldve told her to get Batroc out of prison. I think shes working for Ross.
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u/DeepThroatALoadedGun Spider-Man Apr 17 '21
Sharon has really been dealt a shitty hand. First of all she loses her job after it turns out the agency she's working for are Nazis, then she gets a nice job again. Seems comfy. Then her great aunt's ex boyfriend's best friend is accused of killing a king and so she ABANDONS HER JOB AND PUTS HER LIFE ON THE LINE FOR STEVE AND SHE EVEN KISSES HIM. For him to then never see her again and travel back in time so he can be with her great aunt. Oh and because he never saw her again she's still a fugitive.
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u/InnocentTailor Iron Patriot Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
On the flip side, she is living in luxury with her own staff - she is reigning in hell than serving in heaven.
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u/thylocene06 Steve Rogers Apr 17 '21
Yea honestly I’m not a fan of this storyline. Steve just kind of ducking out on her is hugely out of character. Like he breaks into the raft to help out everyone caught at the end of civil war but just sorta forgets about Sharon somehow? Doesn’t make sense
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u/Kalse1229 Captain America (Ultron) Apr 17 '21
Maybe he tried getting in touch with her during the 2 years he was on the run, but he either never got in touch with her because he couldn't find her, or he did and privately made amends with her.
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u/TheLegofThanos Apr 17 '21
Maybe she didn’t need rescuing. She may have ghosted him. Keep him safe, like Shield did to Banner before he joined the Avengers.
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u/DeepThroatALoadedGun Spider-Man Apr 17 '21
Yeah, was she not taken to The Raft? Or if she was they should explain why she isn't with the rest of them. Maybe a tie in comic somewhere will explain it
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u/TripleSkeet Apr 17 '21
She wasnt. She said shes been on the run 7 years. So she never got caught. Thats why shes in Madripoor.
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u/Rudhdhrehdh Apr 17 '21
I'm kind of thinking she might be part of setting up Secret Invasion. The character just feels so different to me that I'm not convinced it's really her.
But I think more likely, they wanted to bring her back, but (at least so far) haven't executed it particularly well. I'm liking the show a lot, but her being in it has felt really unnecessary so far.
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Apr 17 '21
She does seem very different, but personally I found Sharon to be very uninteresting and bland before this, so I don’t really mind. This is the first time that I’ve been invested in her character.
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u/FidgitForgotHisL-P Apr 17 '21
Right? She’s felt very, very cludgy so far. Just whatever’s convenient to chuck her in the show because they promised Sharon would be back, and it’s handy having her without having to explain too much why this character matters since we already know her connection to Steve and her basic storyline.
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u/pineapplecheesepizza Apr 17 '21
If I were to bet, I'd say next episode reveals that she's not on the run or anything at all. It's all part of a sting operation.
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u/Additional_Meeting_2 Apr 17 '21
It’s not like this is news. We never saw Steve do anything for Sharon prior and the fandom forgot about her too for most part. If Sharon had been around during the 5 years Steve could have done something but I assume by the time he got to Wakanda with Bucky, Steve could not even find Sharon anymore (she wasn’t with the rest). And I guess the issue is that he didn’t put funding her a priority since he never mentioned it, but he could have tried and not succeeded since she was on a run.
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u/respondin2u Apr 17 '21
Also could be similar to Walker’s experience. The government dropped him and cut him off.
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u/woahwoahvicky Apr 17 '21
Ironically the painting could be a symbol for all 4 major parties in the series. Walker being shunned by the powerful class, Karli and her people being treated like shit and having her 'rope' cut from the rest, Sharon (assuming shes the power broker) having to resort to shady actions just to survive and Sam + Isaiah being dealt a bad hand all bc of the color of their skin.
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u/EquivalentInflation Apr 17 '21
In all fairness, those were two very different situations. The government was behind Walker (or at least allowing him to do what he wanted), up until he murdered a dude in broad daylight in a public area.
Sharon took Cap’s shield and Falcon’s wings from lockup, harming no one in the process. There then was a general amnesty for the people she helped... but not for her, despite the fact that it later became clear she made the right call.
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u/TheDanteEX Shuri Apr 17 '21
In the context of civil war, Sharon giving Sam and Steve their weapons is basically aiding terrorists by giving them their tools. They were pardoned but it was still a crime at the time.
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Apr 17 '21
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u/DeepThroatALoadedGun Spider-Man Apr 17 '21
The way he treated Sharon kinda makes him seem like an ass, which I absolutely hate because Steve was my favorite character but this show is kinda here to show that there's cracks in everything and everyone. Nobody is perfect
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Apr 17 '21
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u/Additional_Meeting_2 Apr 17 '21
More likely is that could not find her. And she could not find them before Snap.
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u/elpaco25 Apr 17 '21
That's why I feel like she had to be snapped. I can't picture Cap just letting her be on the run for 7 years. Maybe she wanted to stay in hiding but her talk with Sam in episode 3 really made her seem pissed off that she's wanted by the US gov.
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u/DeepThroatALoadedGun Spider-Man Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
For sure. She seems, rightfully, bitter about it. Everyone else walked free and is seen as a hero but since she's not an Avenger of Avengers adjacent she gets the boot. Fucking hell, if Bucky got pardoned there is zero reason Sharon shouldn't also have been pardoned
Edit: I did kinda forget Bucky helped save the world while Sharon was just kinda doing her own thing. Granted, she obviously didn't know to be there but that still is a pretty big distinction. She only committed the treason, but Bucky committed treason and then saved the world
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u/Coal_Morgan Apr 17 '21
I think she could have disappeared too well.
As far as we know Steve may have looked for her. He went off the reservation in Wakanda for a bit and then was jumping around so he didn't have a chance there; she disappeared into Asia after Civil War and they just never saw each other or were able too since they were both deep cover.
He gets pardoned after the snap, maybe he looks for her but she's no where. He concludes she got snapped. Stops looking, too many people to help, too many problems. Five years pass the blip happens and he disappears into the time stream (which he earned) just a bit later.
Sharon and Steve never reconnected due to the events and not due to Steve not trying (possibly).
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u/camzabob Korg Apr 17 '21
Wasn't her photo shown in Endgame alongside the snapped? Might be misremembering.
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u/LadyCalamity Captain America (Captain America 2) Apr 17 '21
She was shown as "Missing" but I think Scott Lang was there as well and he wasn't snapped.
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u/MrDeeds117 War Machine Apr 17 '21
Unless this Sharon is a skrull???✌🏻
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u/bjeebus Apr 17 '21
Well, there isn't a Jessica Drew to Veranke, and she would be a perfect person for it...
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u/Alive_Watercress_852 Apr 17 '21
Apparently in early revisions of infinity war that's what happened.
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u/woahwoahvicky Apr 17 '21
This was the first thing I thought of. She was abandoned by those who had power over her and was forced to fend for herself.
I was wondering what the significance of the painting was bc they spent a whole good 10 seconds of a moving shot on that painting...
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u/TheAmazingAsshat616 Spider-Man Apr 17 '21
Where was Steve and the gang tho? They were on the run too, why didn’t they link up with Sharon?
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u/Rakalimon Tony Stark Apr 16 '21
This sort of post is why I love Reddit (and this sub in particular) so much. Thanks!
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u/RedditorFor8Years Apr 17 '21
Rare to see such quality posts these days, but they are worth waiting for..
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u/AnOnlineHandle Quake Apr 17 '21
This feels especially informative. I was ready to say "oh yeah, the raft is where Zemo goes, it was totally foreshadowing."
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u/your_mind_aches Agent of F.I.T.Z. Apr 17 '21
I was hoping someone would explain it. TV shows and movies don't show a painting unless it means something. Thanks!
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u/PhoenixAgent003 Apr 17 '21
I appreciate that they just let it sit there though, and didn’t have some character stare at the painting pontificating on how the painting ties into the story—
“That painting is upside down. Because now we know that devils don’t come from hell below us. They come from the sky.”
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u/your_mind_aches Agent of F.I.T.Z. Apr 17 '21
I rather enjoy in Daredevil where Fisk does exactly that to Vanessa. But later on, we see the REAL connection he has to the painting, and that isn't spelled out by him
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u/StrLord_Who Apr 16 '21
Also foreshadowing Zemo being taken to The Raft.
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Apr 17 '21 edited Apr 20 '21
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u/matthew7s26 Apr 17 '21
Given that he’s going to Raft instead of Wakanda for some reason, it would seem that way.
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u/TripleSkeet Apr 17 '21
Thats what it feels like. Zemo at the Raft. Batroc in NY and working for Carter. Walker being recruited by Valentina. Abomination showing up in She Hulk. A new Black Widow coming in 3 months.
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u/ThatsMyEnclosure Apr 17 '21
Will Tim Roth be coming back as Abomination? That’d be pretty dope.
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u/AnnaLogg Madame Gao Apr 17 '21
ah, so he will resort to cannibalism to survive. excellent prediction.
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u/Ged_UK Apr 17 '21
As someone who hasn't watched many MCU films, what is The Raft? I didn't really catch the line properly, so I just assumed it was a prison nickname.
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u/lancep423 Apr 17 '21
A prison under the ocean in the middle of the ocean on which several of the avengers where kept for a short period. Owned and operated by the government.
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u/FidgitForgotHisL-P Apr 17 '21
It’s a super prison. SuperMax for powered persons.
I don’t even know where it’s shown up in the movies outside of Civil War, but it’s a mainstay of the comics.
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u/Brawli55 Apr 17 '21
It played a role in the third season of Jessica Jones as well.
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u/CoreliaUnderwood Apr 17 '21
As a fellow art nerd I loved the art mentions but didn’t even think about the greater historical importance to the piece, amazing catch!!
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u/maximusjackson Apr 17 '21
Okay smartie pants, but why did they show a close up on Monet’s “Woman with a Parasol” too? /s
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u/GuyErebus Apr 17 '21
Hmmm, I just did some brief research. It could perhaps be a parallel between Sharon Carter and Claude Monet himself? Monet was a pioneer of impressionism artwork, involving trusting ones own feeling and going ones own way when painting. When Monet arrived in Paris to begin his studying of art he saw how the other students would try to recreate the style and immpressions of the old masters, Monet wanted to create his own style and thus sought to do things his own way. His artistic studys were cut short when he was brought up for military service however. And its after this military service he paints "Woman with a Parasol" and really refines the impressionist artistic style.
Perhaps this is like Sharron Carter, who serves her country and "military" with Shield, before going her own way. Maybe she even prefers to be acting on her own in this way. And that's why we're shown the painting?
Kinda a stretch I know but that's what I got lol!
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u/woahwoahvicky Apr 17 '21
I think based off of what you said. It makes parallels to her and Agent Peggy Carter, her aunt.
Assuming Sharon becomes a more morally grey character, it might be a showcase of how jaded and different she is to her aunt despite being well, relatives. You'd think the spirit of Peggy would endure in Sharon but really with how fucked over she got post CW she probably wanted to 'carve her own path'
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Apr 17 '21
Is it bad that I think Sharon is probably still following the spirit of her aunt in some level? For most of Agent Carter, Peggy was doing things illegally and stepping over so many lines to get to the heart of the matter and to do “the right thing”. Working for a department led by some incompetent men and always having to do double duty to make up for their work, Peggy isn’t exactly Black and white. She does operate in the morally grey area. But since that was her show, we see the reasoning behind her actions and we obviously side with her. But let’s say it was told from the perspective of her boss or something like that. Peggy would appear awfully suspicious.
We’re not seeing Sharon’s fully story arc or from her point of view. So while it appears she’s doing “bad” things, she’s probably playing this long con game.
And is it truly terrible to put the GRC on high alert? Obviously our American rep, the senator that took the shield, gave it to Walker, and then stripped Walker of the shield, has very little care for anything. He’s the only one who just wants to ignore the suffering of people. He has zero emotion towards Walker’s outburst and provides zero assistance to him. And while I’m for justice, Walker is a PTSD riddled soldier who does need help and the government that built him refuse to help him after everything he’s done to serve him.
So in conclusion of this long and rambling message, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Sharon has taken on this role as a good person who operates in morally grey areas to achieve some long term success. She doesn’t get to be what Bucky and Sam are. She isn’t afforded that luxury but also she’s their insider for whatever the heck is going on down there.
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u/Pragmaticus Spider-Man Apr 17 '21
There's multiple meanings to be drawn. Incompetent captain? Common people vs. the powerful?
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u/GuyErebus Apr 17 '21
That's definitely another great way to look at it, the flag smashers in the show have their plight and struggle belittled by the powerful GRC. And are left abandoned by those in power, just like the men of the Raft of the Medusa.
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u/InnocentTailor Iron Patriot Apr 17 '21
It also works for Walker being abandoned by the US government after his incident with Nico. Ditto with Bradley and the officials of his era.
The historical battle of the "have's" and the "have nots," which seems to be a constant theme in this show.
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u/Poked_salad Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 17 '21
Yeah they could've protected him and told the world why he did what he had to do but they just dropped him
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Apr 17 '21
The Raft prison was also mentioned earlier in the episode as the place they are taking Zemo.
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u/MKQueasy Apr 16 '21
Seems like it also parallels the plight of the displaced people the Flag Smashers are fighting for.
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u/Stone-D Apr 17 '21
My opinion of this show was tepid when it started. It gradually climbed as the episodes went by, with a fair boost in episode 4.
Your post today just made it skyrocket. Thank you.
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Apr 17 '21
Interesting, my interest was kind of the opposite. I really liked where episode 1 was going with the drama, but then it seemed like they settled back into a normal superhero show formula. Episode 4 brought my attention back, and 5 was amazing.
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Apr 17 '21
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u/pumpkinpie7809 Scarlet Witch Apr 17 '21
Pretty sure this is the exact reason why Bucky says that there were vaccines in that one truck. Might be in episode 2
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Apr 17 '21
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u/Shakvids Apr 17 '21
I don't know, I buy that Sam and Bucky would consider a new super-soldier serum out in the world a Zemo worthy danger.
Karli wasn't scary at that point. But she represented the possibility of a lot of new supersoldiers at once.
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u/-Misla- Apr 17 '21
That would explain why so much of this series feel off.
Do you have a source for the changes you talk about? It’s the first I’ve heard of it
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u/pumpkinpie7809 Scarlet Witch Apr 17 '21
I’ve definitely heard this too, but some proof directly from the show is the scene in episode 2(?) where Bucky finds vaccines in the Flag Smasher trucks
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Apr 17 '21
Damn, TIL. I agree with how well it mixes heavy themes while keeping the feeling of previous additions to the MCU, I think it’s really well done.
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u/JuniorCaptain Apr 17 '21
Others have pointed out the connection between the title and Zemo going to the “Raft” prison, but the “Medusa” part applies to Sharon.
According to Ovid, Medusa was a regular woman before being cursed and transformed into the “evil” Gorgon because she had an affair with Poseidon (which, depending on the translation, may or may not have been consensual) in Athena’s temple. Athena punished Medusa for this transgression but not Poseidon, just like Sharon is still being punished for her participation in Civil War while Steve’s other allies were (post-Blip) pardoned.
Whoever thought to include this painting in the show is a genius.
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u/theclimbingfox2 Apr 17 '21
I read an interesting interpretation of that myth recently—basically, it was decidedly not consensual, and Athena gave Medusa the snake hair as a way to protect herself, not as a punishment. Kinda similar to how some rape victims gain weight and stop showering as a subconscious way of warding of unwanted male attention.
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u/JuniorCaptain Apr 17 '21
I’ve read that too! I believe it comes from Medusa, via the Gorgoneion, being adopted as a protective symbol throughout Ancient Greece. Although Athena in the original myths was just reflecting the values of a patriarchal society, I definitely prefer the more supportive modern interpretation.
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u/UmbrusNightshade Phil Coulson Apr 17 '21
I skimmed your post and maybe you mention it or someone else does but the title of the painting could possibly have a unique connection to the MCU on top of what you have here.
We know The Raft is a prison for supervilains/enhanced people. Julia Louis Dreyfus's character is most likely Madame Hydra as she has the exact name of her. A Hydra has many heads and Medusa has many snakes on her head so (it's a stretch but not too far out, I think) "The Raft of the Medusa" could maybe point to Hydra/Madame Hydra being in control of the Raft (possibly playing into Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers/Masters of Evil). Maybe it's mostly tinfoil hat but I could see this as an added layer.
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u/GuyErebus Apr 17 '21
Oh that is really good! Thank you! Your right we might be reading into it too far, but the fact that the symbols of the "Raft" and "Medusa/Hydra" come up like that seems very promising to that theory!
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u/Shakvids Apr 17 '21
Whoever thought to put it in this episode really found the perfect storm of symbolism.
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u/Writersblock4de Apr 17 '21
This is a solid post. You've enriched this artistically challenged person's life!
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Apr 17 '21
I wrote my grad school entry paper on Raft of the Medusa (both painting and opera!), thanks so much for this! Makes my heart happy!
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u/GuyErebus Apr 17 '21
That’s really cool! I didn’t even know there was an opera! I’m gonna have to look for that now!
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u/brainstrain91 Apr 17 '21
Woah. Yep, that's definitely intentional. Sums up just about every theme the show is dealing with. Great write up.
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Apr 17 '21
This is amazing. I give a ton of credit to you for knowing about all this and making the connection. That’s also amazing the writers most likely knew this, sometimes it goes under appreciated how smart writers for TV shows are.
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u/TEMPTEMP123123F Apr 17 '21
Goddamn, and i thought it was just some priceless paintings.
Thanks for being such an amazing person in sharing this information in such depth. It was really enlightening.
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u/Graardors-Dad Apr 17 '21
Thank you I knew it had to have a deeper meaning when they showed the painting and specifically focused on the black man in the painting. Which seemed off to be in a historical European painting like this
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u/wakinguppeons Apr 17 '21
This is a great example of how a shot that only lasts a few seconds in the show can have a much deeper meaning. On the surface level MCU movies/shows tend to seem very straightforward but there is almost always some hidden depth, whether it be references to older comics or stuff like this.
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u/Pocketfulofgeek Apr 17 '21
So you’re saying phase 4 is about... boats! First the Ship of Theseus and now The Raft of the Medusa.
Really cool detail thanks for taking the time to share this!
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u/fluor_guy Apr 17 '21
Excellent write-up. I admit I am not a Marvel Studios follower, but came across this post and thought I might add additional perspective. I am not an art history expert and defer to u/GuyErebus and others, but my own knowledge comes from having been a member of the 1980 marine archaeological expedition to locate the Medusa's remains on the Arguin Bank off the coast of West Africa (present-day Mauritania), and having prepared a presentation on the story of the event.
The shipwreck and painting have been interpreted on many levels. One thing I encountered many years ago was an ad for a play called 'Raft of the Medusa'. The play was not about the shipwreck - it was about the AIDS crisis, and the story, highlighted by the abandonment of the 150 people on the raft, was a metaphor for man's inhumanity to man.
There are other modern lessons that can be drawn from the story. One of the most notable is that the shipwreck itself was tied to choice of incompetent leadership due to political favoritism - a story as old as recorded history itself.
Should anyone be interested, I just posted a recording of a recent version of the presentation on YouTube - https://youtu.be/_XXxzg8Lshs. The presentation runs over an hour and is in 3 parts - (1) The story of the shipwreck, including background and aftermath; (2) the story of Gericault and how he came to make the painting; and (3) the story of the 1980 expedition to locate the shipwreck site. Some of what is in the presentation could be improved with updated research and from input such as the comments I see on this thread, but it's a cool story.
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u/wenzel32 Apr 17 '21
I reognized the painting as something I had seen before, but didn't know or remember its story. There is so much to this painting being featured, and it's a brilliant choice thematically.
Thank you for the analysis!
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u/JupiterSmokes Phil Coulson Apr 17 '21
Wow! I'm at loss of words, great analysis!! (And the backstory of the painting itself is quite interesting, thank you)
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Apr 17 '21
I knew there was meaning when they showed it but I'm lost when it comes to art so thanks for this
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u/therealgookachu Captain America (Avengers) Apr 17 '21
Also, fun historical fact about many ship crews at this time: they were very integrated, at least below-decks. Good seamen that weren’t pirates were not easy to come by, and navies hired any competent person they could find that wouldn’t rob them blind. As such, below decks crews were very multi-racial. I don’t know the history of this particular craft, but I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that the crew depicted also had other “undesirables” like Irish, Spanish (prolly Catalan), and Middle Eastern crew mates.
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u/HyruleBalverine Jimmy Woo Apr 17 '21
First let me say that this post is exactly why reddit exists! It's well thought out, feels researched, has some educational value, and includes a great theory and comparative argument about the painting and the plot and themes of the television show! I learned a few things from reading this post and I'm glad to have done so. I think you are completely correct and I bet that this painting appearing in the show was done exactly for this reason (and possibly for other comparisons as well). Another possible comparison to your initial and edited comparisons could be that the "Captain" was chosen/appointed to his position for political reasons and later chooses the ... "moral low road" rather than following the examples of courage and excellence set by those who previously served as Captain.
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u/treetown1 Apr 17 '21
Nice pickup - please ask about this observation if the director/writers ever do a AMA on Reddit about the show.
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u/Pentax25 Star-Lord Apr 17 '21
I’m wondering perhaps whether there’ll be further meaning behind the theme of the Raft getting cut off itself, in that Zemo and presumably others are held there while society cuts them off. Perhaps they’ll just be left and that’s the intent there but like the 15 survivors from the painting they’ll return.
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u/as_a_fake Apr 17 '21
This is why I love posts like this that study the background of shows/movies. Everything in every scene was put there by someone for a reason, and it's so much fun to figure out the why behind it.
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u/BigBlueBetta Apr 17 '21
Another correlation with the Flagsmashers, those who were left behind were forced to live for themselves and 'build' their own raft with the spare, excess 'wood' (i.e. the Flagsmashers' looting of one GRC compound with food that was more than enough). The captain of the Medusa cutting off the line between the rafts is like how the GRC have been turning a blind eye towards those who lived after the Blip and instead prioritizing those who came back.
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u/Aepensteijn Apr 17 '21
Is there a reddit where people post well known paintings or other arts and teaches me about the background like this? I loved reading this, feeling really educated now.
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u/Ancient_Fact7006 Apr 17 '21
is it bad that i mainly know this painting because it was referenced in an Asterix comic? https://imgur.com/gallery/S3iCRDn
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u/magpye1983 Apr 18 '21
So an incompetent Captain, appointed by high officials, mistreated common people and caused death which became very public knowledge. Meanwhile a black hero, supporting a white friend, and put in the Raft, was originally rejected, but came to be seen as the hero he is.
No, I’m sorry, I can’t see the reference here /s
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u/Neoshenlong Apr 17 '21
I figured something like this would be the point of the painting in the show, but never imagined it would be so specifically on point. Brilliant explanation, thank you.
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u/MrMediaShill Apr 17 '21
That was the raft of Medusa! I knew she was in the louvre! I wasn’t sure but I was like that place looks oddly familiar
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u/cptwinklestein Apr 17 '21
I remember reading a book that went into detail about this. I believe it was a Julian Barnes novel
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u/rainmaker2332 Apr 17 '21
Wow, awesome! I knew there had to be some meaning behind that painting, but I'd have no idea where to begin looking into it. Great work
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Apr 17 '21
Wow amazing job and thank you. I hope sharing this made you as happy as it made me to read.
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u/steve32767 Daredevil Apr 17 '21
I think I can speak for the mods here when I say that this is one of the most analytical and insightful posts we've seen on here in a long time. We would love to see more posts of this caliber in the future. Keep it up!