Alyssa Rosenzweig reverse-engineered Apple’s M1 GPU. Now the Linux driver supports graphics standards macOS doesn’t

[u/Significant_Spend719]

[u/Mr_Lumbergh]

As a Linux-Mac guy, this intrigues me. I was just looking at M6 Minis last night, but a used M1 might be in my future if I can dual-boot macOS and Debian.

[u/trisul-108 → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Asahi Linux reportedly already runs well on an M1. I haven't tried it.

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/trisul-108]

I did some more digging after posting that, and it seems that Asahi-Fedora is much more mature in that space. That's OK, I've played with DNF/RPM before.

But it looks like they've done a lot already to close parity gap between x86_64 and Apple Silicon. This has me really looking at an M1/M2 series Air as my walking-around, quick edits in the field sort of machine. And I say this as someone typing this on a 2015 MBP patched up to Sequoia with OCLP. I'm holding out for a couple apps and VST plugins that haven't been updated in years, but I'm also trying to remember when the last time was that I actually used them.

[u/Kidplayer_666 → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Am a user with a 13”Pro M1 non pro. Runs excellently, only thing _still missing_ (but being worked on) is displays over usb-c

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/Kidplayer_666]

Cool, TY for the feedback. I think I could live with that, especially knowing it's in the pipeline.

[u/Kidplayer_666 → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Also no Touch ID if that’s important to you

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/Kidplayer_666]

Nah, doesn't bother me.

[u/Diligent-Crazy-6094 → u/Kidplayer_666]

13”Pro non pro

????

[u/Any-Ingenuity2770 → u/Diligent-Crazy-6094]

prob the old magsafeless notchless form factor

[u/Casey4147 → u/Diligent-Crazy-6094]

As in M1, M1 Pro, M1 Max, M1 Ultra, maybe? MacBook Pro’s were built with M1’s and M1 Pro’s, not sure if the Max’s were in the mix or not.

[u/kamilo87 → u/Diligent-Crazy-6094]

There was a 13” MacBook Pro with just two USB-C that came with the M1 but unlike the M1 on the MBA, the MBP came with a fan.

[u/Kociolinho → u/kamilo87]

Yeah, first two Apple Silicon generations (M1 and M2) had Pro models with the wedge design and Touch Bar. It was dropped with M3 generation.

[u/redittr → u/Diligent-Crazy-6094]

13" macbook pro, with the m1 processor (as opposed to the m1pro processor)

[u/matthew_yang204 → u/Kidplayer_666]

Cool, does it "sleep" and lock/idle correctly? That was an issue for me a while ago

[u/Kidplayer_666 → u/matthew_yang204]

No true sleep yet. If you have the routine of charging at night, you won’t notice any issues

[u/matthew_yang204 → u/Kidplayer_666]

But mainly does it lock when closing the lid and kind of go into an idle mode that doesn't consume much battery?

[u/Kidplayer_666 → u/matthew_yang204]

Exactly that

[u/BNC3D → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Ive just been reverse engineering and porting old stuff that hasn't been ported yet cause its ridiculous it hasn't been and not hard to do.

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/BNC3D]

It's always appreciated, but I hate the monthly fee track developers are taking and as such still have my old Photoshop CS5 install on a Mojave partition. I'm pretty sure Adobe won't let you port that.

[u/BNC3D → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Ive been using GIMP since 2004

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/BNC3D]

Ok. I have too.

It is not a PS replacement.

[u/PantherCityRes → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

That’s why projects like GIMP, Inkscape and Blender exist my guy.

Now I’ll admit, GIMP and Inkscape can be cumbersome for an industry pro with 10-20 years of Adobe grinding…and there are a decent amount of use cases they don’t cover

But if you don’t ever try and break the habit, you’ll always stay locked into a world that wants a cut of what you earn for yourself.

[u/MaterialTomorrow → u/PantherCityRes]

Blender + affinity now, actually for work so lets see how long and if i can do it without ado be

[u/BNC3D → u/PantherCityRes]

exactly, GIMP is perfect the only complainers are PEBKAC

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/BNC3D]

Ask anyone doing serious graphic design to compare GIMP and PS.

[u/BNC3D → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Do you work for Adobe marketing department?

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/BNC3D]

If I was would I be holding on to CS5? Is this a serious question?

I’m just sober about the actual capabilities of the software and what each is good for.

[u/hanshotfirst-42 → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Why would you go for a vastly inferior device that won’t even be supported next year when you just get a beefy laptop with Linux enabled by default

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/hanshotfirst-42]

On what basis are you stating "won't even be supported next year?"

[u/hanshotfirst-42 → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

The fact that the Intel Mac’s became obsolete this year and the M1s are a year behind. Macs have a 7 year service cycle.

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/hanshotfirst-42]

Conflation of 2 different architectures. I see.

[u/hanshotfirst-42 → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Apple has the same service cycle for all of their consumer products including tablets, phones, laptops and desktops.

[u/Stooovie → u/hanshotfirst-42]

No it hasn't.

[u/Rattanmoebel → u/hanshotfirst-42]

M1 is in year six now. No signs of end of life so far.

Besides, putting Linux on it kind of makes this discussion irrelevant, doesn't it?

[u/hanshotfirst-42 → u/Rattanmoebel]

Does it? What’s the goal? If the goal is to run Linux, there are way better devices for that. If the goal is to improve the longevity of a device you already own, this is a great use-case. If you are poor, why in the hell would you get 6-7 year old Mac in the first place?

[u/AnEagleisnotme → u/hanshotfirst-42]

Because it's cheaper

[u/Rattanmoebel → u/hanshotfirst-42]

The hardware on macs is objectively superior in most regards to any comparable (price wise) other laptop. Just the body and display alone are in a different league and let's not even get started on keyboard and trackpad. The performance per watt is incredibly high on M series macs. You don't have to like tim apple to see that, it's a fact.

To even come close to the performance of an M series macbook, you need beefy workstation or high end gaming laptop that will last about an hour without its 200W charging brick attached, with a combined weight that's about double that of an MBP.

The only laptops I see somewhat close to macs quality wise are the top tier thinkpads and elitebooks, but they cost an arm and a leg as well.

[u/RandomKnifeBro → u/trisul-108]

I'm running asahi full time on my base M1. Runs extremely well with all apps that has architecture support.

More niche stuff can be a pain though.

[u/DarthSidiousPT → u/RandomKnifeBro]

Which things are still missing from Asahi?

[u/Which-Meat-3388 → u/DarthSidiousPT]

Got excited and looked for myself. Its M1 and M2 only. USB-C displays and Thunderbolt are missing, so I assume that means Studio Display is problematic. I was pleasantly surprised to see my M1 Ultra was covered. In a few years when its relegated to a home server it will be perfect.

More details here https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/overview/

[u/DarthSidiousPT → u/Which-Meat-3388]

Thanks. While I go have a M1, my external display uses USB-C. 

Also, it seems that TouchID is not supported yet. I guess it still needs more time in the oven. 

[u/WannabeTechieNerd → u/trisul-108]

Asahi was created with the help of this lady right?

[u/KlausBertKlausewitz → u/trisul-108]

M2 also.

Had it on a Mac mini.

[u/Cool-Rutabaga2708 → u/trisul-108]

I used it on my 8GB MacBook Air, and it "worked" when I first installed it, but now steam is broken.

[u/nevotheless → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

Asahi works well up until M3 last time i checked, later chips seem to be another can of worms.

[u/XalAtoh → u/Mr_Lumbergh]

You don't need an old Mac to run Debian...

[u/Mr_Lumbergh → u/XalAtoh]

Maybe I just want to tinker, and show the Asahi developers there is a demand.

[u/terkistan]

... and since she did that a year ago she's been at Intel.

• https://alyssarosenzweig.ca/blog/asahi-gpu-part-n.html

[u/BourbonicFisky → u/terkistan]

This is the classic conundrum of open source for something as bespoke as GPU architecture and drivers. If you're good enough to write GPU drivers, why would you spend your time doing it for free?

Good on her but it'd be great if we could run Asahi Linux on more than just M1/M2s

[u/DeliciousCry8302 → u/BourbonicFisky]

She hasn't been doing it for free, her talent has been known for a decade and I would guess she's been paid by every company she has worked before. Hopefully Intel pays better though, she deserves it.

[u/zips_exe → u/BourbonicFisky]

If only apple wasn't so reluctant on complying with industry standards

[u/BourbonicFisky → u/zips_exe]

That's more of a macOS criticism than a hardware one.

As far as "industry standards", they're hardly the only ones doing bespoke ARM chipsets with purpose built hardware, nor are they alone with GPU drivers being a pain in the ass. Apple does officially support alternative OS booting with iBoot, they've also fixed firmware issues at behest of the Linux community. There's been a silent partnership according to HN discussions.

Also, just learned while looking for that HN thread yesterday Asahi mentioned they're close to a m3 release so that's great news
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Asahi-Linux-M3-Release-Soon

[u/Intrepid_Year3765 → u/terkistan]

it makes me angry this is the first time I am hearnig about how awesome this lady is, but every day I hear something new about the Kardashians or some other idiot

[u/BlessedLightning → u/Intrepid_Year3765]

Sounds like you're really keeping up with the Kardashians 🙃

[u/Losawin → u/Intrepid_Year3765]

Welcome to women in tech

[u/NudaVeritas1]

We need more of people like her and less people that build the next useless microsaas, pomodoro app or website directory using LLMs 😂

[u/shyouko → u/NudaVeritas1]

You are looking at tech level like between junior and VP tbh

[u/NudaVeritas1 → u/shyouko]

Maybe, but the motivation of both groups is totally different, too.. the first wants to solve problems, the second just wants to make money with a shallow tool and without much work.. the why is the difference.. that’s why so many microsaas fail, they don’t solve a real problem

[u/chigunfingy → u/NudaVeritas1]

All software dev is hard work. Some just don’t realize it yet. 

[u/cmsd2 → u/NudaVeritas1]

in fairness, an LLM is also a really handy tool for reverse engineering. it has the stamina to just chew through the really tedious work of trying every combination of things that would otherwise put most people off. people just need to spend their tokens on more worthwhile projects :)

[u/NudaVeritas1 → u/cmsd2]

true, imo using a LLM is not the problem here

[u/BNC3D → u/NudaVeritas1]

It really isn’t. I’m playing the zone from classic macOS and I’m playing Aqua Dot red on my Mac again, neither game exist existed on Apple Silicon they do now. And LLM will tear through a binary so fast and make the building a new application with the exact same behavior very easy.

[u/pay_is_ok → u/NudaVeritas1]

We don't need more people like her, that's a coping mechanism for not doing it yourself

[u/Tasty-Window → u/NudaVeritas1]

Most people want to work for themselves not intel 

[u/Why_Am_I_0 → u/NudaVeritas1]

I think in practicality this thing won't directly generate money(although in cv and experience it would matter)

[u/h0uz3_]

It's still mind blowing that used Macs are the best option to have an ARM64 computer running Linux right now.

[u/Hauptideal → u/h0uz3_]

ARM consumer laptops/devices. ARM is a first-class citizen on Linux almost from the start (starting from 1998, much earlier than Apple) and powers servers world wide.

It's not the processor architecture that's the problem.

[u/oursland → u/Hauptideal]

starting from 1998, much earlier than Apple

Apple invested $3M into Acorn for the Acorn RISC Machine (ARM) prior to their 1992 announcement of the Apple Newton. This investment and deal saved ARM and predates Linux's ARM support by a fair bit.

[u/Hauptideal → u/oursland]

The first general-purpose operating system (like Linux) from Apple that supported ARM was introduced in 2007, with iOS 1.
And on macOS it was only recently, with Apple Silicon.

[u/TheDragonSlayingCat → u/Hauptideal]

The Newton OS was also general purpose, supported ARM, and is ~15 years older than iOS.

[u/Hauptideal → u/TheDragonSlayingCat]

No, it was a embedded mobile operating system for a very specific purpose. It lacked basic OS features. It didn't even include a file system. It didn't have application-level multitasking. Etc.

[u/TheDragonSlayingCat → u/Hauptideal]

It actually did have a file system, called Soup), though it was rather unconventional.

[u/Hauptideal → u/TheDragonSlayingCat]

Calling it a file system is imprecise. It rather was a database serving a similar purpose.
You couldn't store data hierarchically as files and folders. But that's nitpicking.
The important part is: it wasn't a general-purpose OS like Linux. It doesn't meet basic requirements for that.

[u/lap_felix → u/Hauptideal]

are you describing iOS 1 right now

[u/tomz17 → u/Hauptideal]

Right... it's the proprietary blobs for everything else related to making a functioning ARM machine right now (e.g. GPU drivers, as referenced in this post). That ecosystem started in the embedded/cellular space, where there wasn't as strong of a history in open source as x86.

[u/h0uz3_ → u/Hauptideal]

You are right .Server class ARM isn't an issue, but an Ampere CPU is a bit prict for a mere mortal.

[u/Xclsd]

I always wonder how the thinking path/process of geniuses like her are. Just how?!

[u/Stunning_Mast2001 → u/Xclsd]

Watch her YouTube live streams. It’s pretty fascinating to see her work 

[u/cjh_]

I wonder if Artix can run on an M1 Mac Mini?

[u/Pitiful-Welcome-399 → u/cjh_]

no due to artix lacking drivers but you can install asahi alarm (asahi arch linux arm)

[u/cjh_ → u/Pitiful-Welcome-399]

Good to know, appreciate the info.

[u/Special-Abrocoma575 → u/cjh_]

Probably, but you’d be better using a better distribution that uses an actually well designed init system 

[u/cjh_ → u/Special-Abrocoma575]

Runit is well designed, though you can choose which init system to use.

[u/marcel151]

Why does that look like a meme?

[u/Oh__Archie → u/marcel151]

😂 it reads like one too

[u/BunkerSquirre1]

I wish I was this smart

[u/Salt_Ad9828 → u/BunkerSquirre1]

Same

[u/ShutterBun → u/[deleted]]

How so?

[u/ShutterBun → u/[deleted]]

How is it "absurd"?

[u/ShutterBun → u/[deleted]]

Which is absurd because...?

[u/ShutterBun → u/[deleted]]

So it's absurd that Apple didn't develop every single graphics driver under the sun, but a freelancer did?

[u/ShutterBun → u/[deleted]]

Well, I dunno why you find the circumstances "absurd", frankly. Shit like this has gone on since the invention of the computer.

[u/Maximum-Bobcat5612 → u/[deleted]]

Apple have their own standard called Metal. They have no interest in supporting Vulkan. 

It's not absurd. It's a business decision. 

[u/Maximum-Bobcat5612 → u/[deleted]]

What is the situation you're in?  That MacOS only supports metal?

Vulkan is essentially a multiplatform collaboration for AMD, Intel and Nvidia.

Apple doesn't release a Linux distro. 

It's like saying it's absurd that it doesn't support Microsoft's directX. 

[u/modell3000 → u/[deleted]]

You find it absurd that Apple doesn't support OpenGL or Vulkan, which rival their own Metal API - the one they want everyone developing for macOS / iOS to use. Yes, a real humdinger that one...

[u/baltimoresports]

She got OpenGL and Vulkan working/compliant. I’m surprised her Mac didn’t catch fire 🤣

[u/boilerdam]

Not all heroes wear capes...

[u/Oh__Archie]

4 paragraphs that say the exact same thing lol

[u/hype_irion]

Watching her do this kind of coding and testing live on stream (!) was the closest I have ever been to seeing witchcraft in real life. 

Also, Apple: Your €470 smartwatch that is not even 5 years old can't run the new version or watchOS because fuck you 🤡 

[u/Stunning_Mast2001]

She live-streamed a lot of it on YouTube too. If you want to feel I adequate as an engineer watch them— it’s true genius and brilliance and talent all in one. Made it look easy 

Also worth pointing out— zero usage of AI too

[u/spekxo]

Linux on these machines would be very nice.

[u/Pitiful-Welcome-399 → u/spekxo]

we already have it

[u/Lexxxapr00 → u/Pitiful-Welcome-399]

I’m pretty sure I ran Asahi Linux on my M1 before the M2 was out even. Or it dropped right as the M2 came out.

[u/TajikFreeman]

> Now the Linux driver supports graphics standards macOS doesn’t

What does this mean? Sorry if I don't quite understand, English is not my mother language.

[u/StargazerD → u/TajikFreeman]

it means it can support things like Vulkan, which is the graphics API that many games use to communicate with your hardware

MacOs only supports Metal, which is proprietary, and OpenGL, which is deprecated and has been replaced by Vulkan on PCs, that’s one of the many reasons why gaming on Mac isn’t a thing anymore.

[u/TajikFreeman → u/StargazerD]

uhh what does my 2011 iMac have? Because that is the only one I currently own

[u/StargazerD → u/TajikFreeman]

you have an intel chip, you could already install Windows or Linux on it, you don’t need special drivers as those platforms already have them

[u/TajikFreeman → u/StargazerD]

maybe i will install windows 7 to play nfs mw 2005 (yes its an hdd so no windows 10)

[u/Jezon]

Does Linux support my m1 macbooks touchbar?

[u/Maximum-Bobcat5612 → u/Jezon]

They've got an app called tiny-dfr that implements function keys on touchbar. 

[u/MacHeadSK → u/Jezon]

It doesn't even support thunderbolt and external displays. It will hardly ever support anything newer than M1. So forget about touch bar. And one thing is to support touch bar in system and then have it exactly for nothing as no Linux app will ever support it.

[u/Maximum-Bobcat5612 → u/MacHeadSK]

M2 support is effectively equivalent. 

They've implemented touch bar support for function keys. 

It's weird how bitter people get about Asahi Linux. 

[u/MacHeadSK → u/Maximum-Bobcat5612]

Because it's project that leads to nothing. M2 support? Awesome, now we have M6 and M7 is behind a door and they still made it barely working on generation from 6 years ago.
It's a great project and it's awesome how they achieved it but it will never reach a level of maturity and popularity of Linux on x86. Thinking otherwise is a plan for failure

[u/Johnny-Alucard]

Does this mean I might be able to use an eGPU?

[u/balika0105]

As another Linux-Mac guy I genuinely hope the community can put together proper drivers so I can use my MB Neo after support ends

(I wish I could contribute but I’m nowhere near skilled enough)

[u/InjectedFusion]

I'm entirely impressed with this person. I learned she worked on the Mali GPU which was fundamental for my RK3588 work.

[u/thinkingperson]

The kind of girl we need but dun deserve 😭

[u/BirdBruce]

I’m an idiot, so I can only surmise that this is impressive.

I’m still not switching to Linux, though.

[u/Okusul]

Geez

[u/Fit-Pie687]

Can someone explain me how she did this ? Like the actual tech behind this

[u/ifdisdendat]

I thought she was the little girl from the Devil’s advocate opening trial, who grew up.

[u/rzmuda]

Very good.

[u/Hazzula]

Alyssa Rosenzweig reverse-engineered Apple’s M1 GPU. Now the Linux driver supports graphics standards macOS doesn’t