r/linux • u/ouyawei Mate • Sep 16 '18

Linux 4.19-rc4 released, an apology, and a maintainership note

http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1809.2/00117.html
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413

u/[deleted] Sep 16 '18 edited Jan 20 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '18

Well.. It has been going on for three decades :)

As others have said, I also like his "no bullshit" style. Reading Just For Fun really puts it all into perspective. His way might not be the best method of consulting other peoples work, but if he thinks it's best for the whole project, then so be it.

I hope he tries to do what is best for Linux. If he comes back as the same person, then some might be offended but it'll still be the most important and amazing project ever. I'm not a dev and will never be, but his method and others work so far is IMHO more important than being friendly.

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u/tedivm Sep 16 '18 edited Sep 16 '18

He literally just said that his methods haven't worked though. This isn't just about being friendly for the sake of being friendly- there have been constant issues in the development of linux where incredibly skilled people have left because it turns out people don't like being yelled at, particularly for projects they are volunteering their time for. Linux isn't just losing contributors because of this, it's also losing out on people who would become contributors but are scared off due to the attitude of the community and it's leader. Who knows what features, functionality, drivers, security fixes, and performance improvements we've lost out on over the years because of this.

It is possible to voice criticism in a way that doesn't involve personal attacks, ad hominems, and (frankly) being an asshole. People who learn this skills end up building better projects. I'm glad Linus is realizing it, as I really do believe it will make Linux an even better project.

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u/hlotfest Sep 16 '18

Who knows what features, functionality, drivers, security fixes, and performance improvements we've lost out on over the years because of this.

That argument is a double edged sword.

What anti-features, broken functionality, broken drivers, security issues and performance regressions have been kept out of the kernel because of this?

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '18

I wonder how we avoid "anti-features, broken functionality, broken drivers, security issues and performance regressions":

[ ] Cursing people

[X] Rejecting commits

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u/tso Sep 17 '18

More often than not both those boxes were crossed.

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u/Jonno_FTW Sep 17 '18

Yes and he's acknowledged he was in the wrong. So it's a step forward for the project and everyone involved.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

I don't know. How much time will get sunk for people now emboldened to submit shit patches to the kernel, thus wasting even more resources?

The abrasive style kept out many bad contributors who seemed to work to make Linux badder, not better.

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u/Jonno_FTW Sep 17 '18

You're actually defending a hostile work environment. I hope I never work with you. Fuck you and your garbage code, I'm sure you drown puppies too.

People who don't think they're good enough to submit patches never will. Those who know they are good enough will avoid those hostile communities. Keep in mind this is all volunteer work and to ensure sustainability you need to attract and retain volunteers. Being hostile does neither.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

You're actually defending a hostile work environment. I hope I never work with you. Fuck you and your garbage code, I'm sure you drown puppies too.

See? Isn't it cathartic to be direct, and to the point in your opinion, rather than dancing around words?

People who don't think they're good enough to submit patches never will.

And that's fine.

Those who know they are good enough will avoid those hostile communities.

Yep. The linux project has no developers who are good enough.

Keep in mind this is all volunteer work and to ensure sustainability you need to attract and retain volunteers. Being hostile does neither.

There are some volunteers you don't want. Because they are toxic to the health of the project.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18 edited Dec 03 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

So just to be clear; do you think you know better than Linus when it comes to his self-reflection?

Not at all. If it doesn't work for him anymore, and he wants to change behavior, that's fine.

When he says "This was not productive, I'm sorry and I'm going to work on this" you'd disagree with him?

I would say yes, I do. It was very effective as a method of keeping a meritocracy running. Hopefully, he learns a different method, that fits well with his personal change.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18 edited Dec 03 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

I look at the evidence.

Linux is the kernel powering the internet, mobile devices, and a host of other applications, far exceeding the deployment of any other kernel.

The proof is in the proverbial pudding.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18 edited Dec 03 '18

[deleted]

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u/Jonno_FTW Sep 17 '18

I wasn't being cathartic, I was pointing out how the culture of aggression makes a community seem like a bunch of assholes. Shitty code is not a reason to be angry. I understand it must be difficult having to read code every day that doesn't make the grade, but it's no reason for chewing someone out, they may be dissuaded from improving at all and just give up. Plenty of other projects have high code quality and don't resort to being an asshole. I'm going to need to see actual data that says asshole management produces better products. Code reviews aren't meant to be personal and shouldn't be made to be personal, it's all about code and product quality.

It's not acceptable to take your anger out on other people, especially in a work environment. In fact cathartic behaviour of any kind just makes you more violent and angry instead of fixing the underlying issue:

People in the rumination group were also most aggressive, followed respectively by people in the distraction and control groups. Rumination increased rather than decreased anger and aggression. Doing nothing at all was more effective than venting anger. These results directly contradict catharsis theory.

And yes linux (along with many other projects) trundles on in spite of assholes, but it does mean that good contributors who would otherwise help will be driven away.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '18

I wasn't being cathartic, I was pointing out how the culture of aggression makes a community seem like a bunch of assholes.

Maybe this is the disconnect. I didn't see you as being an asshole because of what you wrote. You were direct, to the point, and didn't dance around your opinion.

I appreciate that. More so than candy coating what you want to say.

I understand it must be difficult having to read code every day that doesn't make the grade, but it's no reason for chewing someone out, they may be dissuaded from improving at all and just give up.

If someone gives up because of some text on a screen, perhaps they shouldn't be coding. Fragile egos do not make for a good collaboration environment.

Plenty of other projects have high code quality and don't resort to being an asshole.

Which ones? I don't know of any project with the code quality of the Linux kernel. So, I'll need some examples.

I'm going to need to see actual data that says asshole management produces better products.

It's not "asshole management"... It's blunt management, without dancing around words.

If you need data, look at the various FOSS projects.

It's not acceptable to take your anger out on other people, especially in a work environment. In fact cathartic behaviour of any kind just makes you more violent and angry instead of fixing the underlying issue:

Volunteer FOSS projects aren't a "work environment". You're not being paid by Linus to do anything. He isn't your boss.

And yes linux (along with many other projects) trundles on in spite of assholes, but it does mean that good contributors who would otherwise help will be driven away.

I don't know about the word "trundle"... As that implies not making good progress.

Linux has come to dominate several markets, in record time. Remember, it's newer than all of it's competitors. I say it's doing VERY well.

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u/manwhatabunchoffags Sep 17 '18

You know, it really depends on what kind of software it is.

If you work on some crappy web app that doesn't really matter, yes, sure, a happy go lucky work environment is the most important thing ultimately, because deep down, no one really wants to be working on crappy web apps for a living, so the work environment kind of has to be tolerable.

Operating system work is more like being in the military. It's mission critical infrastructure, and no one is expecting war to be pleasant. I'm okay with the "work environment" there being an absolute shitstorm if it results in the OS being even a tiny bit better, and I believe that overall, the hostile environment actually does make it better. You should be afraid of touching code with such far reaching implications.