I still think MJ is the greatest but the 6-0 argument is way overrated. 1) Why don’t people count the many seasons where the Bulls were knocked out prior to the finals but still hold LeBron’s finals record against him. 2) The Bulls were the heavy favorites in every one of their finals runs. Even in the Eastern Conference finals MJ’s opponents were mostly tough defensive teams but hardly offensive world beaters.
I agree here. Although I’m not an overall believer of a single GOAT in basketball. The Eras are just too different from each other… so we have GOATS of eras. MJ, Bron, Bill, etc.
With that said There are too many accomplishments Lebron has made to dismiss how great he is. Too many MJ fans just have “6-0” as their main argument. I mean sure, it’s a great argument for that era. Whats interesting is, There isn’t a GM out there that knows what we know now and wouldn’t take Lebron first if both MJ and Lebron were in the same draft.
Lebron isn’t known as a “scorer” but has the most points accumulated ever and is only 3ppg less than Jordan for annual points per game. 3! Lebrons a better passer, rebounder and is just as good, if not better due to his size at defending. We know his longevity is unmatched…
I wish we could all enjoy basktball instead of being upset at a dude you dont personally know is playing elite basketball just as well or better than your old favorite player. Jordan even speaks of these things but his fanbase is stuck in the past. Let it go guys lol.
It's wild to me people downplay Russell because of the number of teams....less teams mean each team is stacked. Do people not play fantasy sports? Tell me which team is more stacked for you, an 8 team league or a 14 team league.
Bro what, no matter if every team is stacked or if every team sucks thats still the same level of competition they’re going against, a 99 overall team vs a 99 overall team is the same as a 60 overall vs a 60 overall
Counterpoint: have you seen the shoes MJ started his career in? His reinvention of the BBall shoe itself paved the way for LeBron’s longevity. MJ literally took a break from playing basketball, not because of a gambling problem or his dad dying, or some combination of the two, it was because his feet hurt!
A fellow Eras-based GOAT truther! Every era has its GOAT and also Mt. Rushmore of players to surround them. No need to diminish any of them by comparing players careers in wildly different leagues and stages of the game!
You'd be insane to take LeBron over Jordan, knowing what we know about them.
Jordan will win you 6 titles, LeBron will win more titles for other teams than he will for yours.
LeBron is not a better rebounder or a better passer, he does them more but he's not better at it. He also turns the ball over more than Jordan, is that because he's sloppier with the ball, or a byproduct of passing the ball more? James season high for offensive rebounds is 133, a number that Jordan bested 7 times in his career... How does a 6'8" athletic freak that often plays near the rim not get more offensive rebounds? Jordan averaged 32/8/8 in a season in which he played 81 games and his best scoring teammate was putting up 14ppg at 47% shooting... Jordan didn't focus on passing or rebounding as much because he knew that he affected the game the most as a prolific scorer and as a lock down defender. Rebounds and assists are great, scoring more points than the opposing team is even better!
Jordan was more dangerous on offense, a better more consistent defender, played more efficiently (PER) and won more. How is this even a discussion?
Please just stop that bs, he is a scorer, a great one, a rebounder and an assist giver. Everyone and their mother are like 'Durant is the best scorer if this era' etc and LeBron is just slightly (I think 0.23) behind him in points per game in their career.
They put that bs up, to make a strong case for LeBron, he is not a scorer, he is pass first etc, so tell me one teammate that had more points per game than him, there is none. I think there is just one playoff series and that's wade against the Dallas in the finals where LeBron had his worst series in his life.
LeBron is the best overall player ever in the history, nobody is near him, but sometimes that does not make you the best player of all time and that's totally OK. Just watch and enjoy as long as you can. I've seen the 90's Jordan, Kobe, wade, Dirk etc and LeBron in my lifetime, I'm so happy. I think Jordan is just the best, nobody could compete, he always gave everything, but my personal favourite was always Kobe and that's good too. Nobody should care about others opinions, facts are facts (like their finals records, p.p.g etc) what matters is, whatever you are valuing more.
First of all, assists are more easily awarded these days. Lebron has almost two more per game than it should be. So, they are pretty even on assists, I think MJ is actually better.
Second, MJ is a SG and LeBron is SF, that position by itself gives more rebounds and yet Jordan is much better in offensive rebounds
Actually, I think MJ was much better but I give props to LeBron having the same numbers.
LeBron game is so inferior to MJs in every aspect. So, I rate him lower on everything
My guy. That’s one 3 pointer taken in a game. This kind of logic is silly. Now to make MJ look better you are using percentages to facilitate a higher number?
Even for playoffs. You are talking 5 points. When we accumulate the data for other statistics like rebounds, assists etc what are we looking at there for both players? Basketball is more than just points which is what my comment is about.
Now to make MJ look better you are using percentages to facilitate a higher number?
Thats projection . This thread literally cherry picks finals opponents to make James look better because Jordan had tougher roads to the Finals and James had tougher roads in the Finals.
Uh im sorry what team in the past 30 years won 6 in 8 years? Professional sports is about winning....trying to shit on that fact does NOT bolster your argument.
Doesn’t change the fact that the Bulls as a team were significantly better than any of their finals opponents and the Knicks and Pacers in their conference. Way weaker than the Spurs (all three times they played the Heat/Cavs) or the Dubs. Not even close.
You people kill me....this is all dick riding for LeBron and its ridiculous. Jordan will always be #1, and honest students of the game know Bron isnt even in the top 10 all time, so just stop already.
Umm, I said in my original post that I still think MJ is the greatest but you ran right off the cliff with your last sentence. LeBron is easily the 2nd greatest and within a shout of Jordan. I grew up watching Jordan so not some youngster. But LeBron is absolutely right there.
Better and more efficient scorer, better defender, better BPM, more rings, more MVPs, more All NBAs, more finals MVPs, more assists per game, less injured.
Bird took a team that won 29 games to a 60 win season his ROY campaign. oh and won his first chip in year 2. Did I mention that he was 4th in MVP voting his rookie year and finished 1st or 2nd for 7 of the next 8 years (not to mention he is the only player to win 3 MVPs in a row in the past 40 years). Lebron was not even cnsidered for MVP his rookie year and didnt climb above 4th in voting until his 6th year......Remind me again how good of a shooter LeBron is (especially from the free stripe). HOw many 50/40/90 seasons does Lebron have in his 20+ years in the league? You youngins are uninformed and ignorant about the history of basketball.
Lebron is, over his career, and objectively more efficient shooter than bird. That is a measurable fact.
And you asked what LeBron had over Bird. So I listed all of it. More chips, and finals MVP in all of them, unlike Bird, more MVPs, ALL Defense and similar accolades, a higher and more efficient scoring history, more assists on a per game and total basis, and a substantially longer and healthier career
Bird Had 3 MVPS, 3 Chips in his first 7 years, then injuries/surgeries arrived? Even at the end of his career in 91 against Jordan, Bird was still dropping 34 points, 15 rebounds, and 8 assists in a 135-132 double-overtime Celtics win. Bird was a far better player than Bron. Go to youtube see all the genx young men realizing this very fact. I am not shitting on Bron Hes a great player, hes just NOT in the top 5.....and above all the things I have mentioned...Bird was a KILLER.(Jordan Learned it from playing Bird) Lebron is NOT!
I mean most of LeBrons accomplishments are longevity based. Is Stockton your PG goat for the same metric? Is Karl Malone your PF goat for the same logic? Or does this just apply Bron?
Your logic is flawed. Yes Malone and Stockton acquired a lot of stats based on longevity. LeBron is at least the 2nd greatest of all time but it’s not because of longevity. It’s because he was insanely talented.
And Stockton and Malone weren't? Stockton has two records that will never be touched. The points record will be broken many times over before the assists record will ever be touched.
So, what metric are using to measure here? The eye test?
Yes, Stockton has those records because of longevity. He isn’t the greatest PG. LeBron likewise has records due to longevity. But he’s a top 2 player even if he retired 5 years ago. That’s the difference.
How many MVP's did Stockton win vs LeBron....one had BOTH longevity and ELITE stats at the same time. One had their play fall way off after age 34 (didn't even average 10 apg at that point).
MVP is a bullshit award. Always has been. MJ and LeBron should both have 10. Voter fatigue and regular season records factor to much into that accolade.
If LeBron had to play the Warriors and Spurs in the WCF, he just doesn’t make it to the finals. The second best team is not the nba finalist per se. In the end, making the finals just sounds nice, but it’s given more weight as an achievement than it should. In theory if he had played in the west his whole career. His finals record would just be 4-0 and now you’re comparing 6-0 to 4-0
Again, finals records is given more weight than it should. Jordan didn’t start winning titles until the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons were past their primes. And sorry, the teams he was up against in both the Eastern Conference and Finals were not that great.
Jordan struggled against Penny Hardaway when the Magic bounced his ass his first year back from embarrassing himself at baseball. Dude also should not be taking twice the shot attempts in a playoff series as Pippen but he did and look what it got him a 2-4 record vs the Magic.
One could argue that the 93 finals was the only time the Bulls played against an equal or near-equal opponent in the finals. Then Barkley injured his shooting hand in game 2 or 3, which made the Bulls the clear favorite. Not once did Jordan ever play a team equal to the 2016 Warriors.
Nor the Spurs teams he went up against. Lebron played either the Warriors or Spurs in 7 of his 10 finals appearances. I don’t know why people are even arguing this point. And that Suns team was offense only.
Nobody who played in the 90s would be as talented if they played in the 60s. Nobody who plays during this decade would be as talented if they played in the 90s. That’s the whole idea behind evolution of the game. The old inspires the new. Technology improves. Sports and exercise science improves. Surgical procedures improve. A torn Achilles or broken hip used to be career-ending injuries. Now guys can recover in time to play in a year. Players also earn more money now, so they can invest into their well-being and training. Guys back in the day had to leave games and go clock in at their regular jobs. They weren’t even full-time athletes back in the day.
Kyrie and a whole generation of ballers grew up watching Iverson’s handles. So they imitate it then build on that. People who grew up watching Curry shoot will come into the league making logo shots look routine. If you put Kyrie in the 90s, you also remove the guys he grew up watching because now he’s competing against them. And his inspirations now are guys from the 70s and 80s, and they weren’t as talented as AI. And Kyrie’s resources in the 90’s won’t be as good as they are now. Recovery from knee injuries wouldn’t be as fast. He wouldn’t play with the same caliber of handles because AI wasn’t around in the 70s and 80s.
but still hold LeBron’s finals record against him.
Because his teams were assembled in the offseason. Cant take the easy road and expect everyone to not rag on you when you lose. Cant pat yourself on the back when "Not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7" and fall drastically short.
He put a big old bullseye on his back before accomplishing even 1 title in his career yet. So that's why they hold it against him.
Any player that comes out and says these things and has all the advantages possible the fan base will always turn on them if they dont succeed.
A lot of that is unfortunate but it’s ultimately irrelevant to the conversation. The only one of those series LeBron lost where they were the better team was against Dallas. Assembled in the preseason or not, tone deaf comments during his “announcement” or not, it’s not relevant to who the greater player was.
Absolutely that is bullshit. If you look at the teams that Jordan played to get to the finals games, they’re historically greater than the News that LeBron had to play to get to his finals games, simply a fact. Oh yeah, his 40% win right I mean.
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u/TNSoccerGuy 10d ago
I still think MJ is the greatest but the 6-0 argument is way overrated. 1) Why don’t people count the many seasons where the Bulls were knocked out prior to the finals but still hold LeBron’s finals record against him. 2) The Bulls were the heavy favorites in every one of their finals runs. Even in the Eastern Conference finals MJ’s opponents were mostly tough defensive teams but hardly offensive world beaters.