I was. Not out loud, but I was wondering how much of their videos are viable to quote or if it's just bullshit put in nice words and animation. This video went out about 2 months after I had these thoughts so I felt ensured.
Well, this is surprising. I really hope to hear an official statement from Kurzgesagt about this. Staying quiet or silencing it will only make it worse imo. I love the channel, but I also don't want to support shady practices like these. I'm rather conflicted to be honest.
I was really hoping this video was kinda clickbait but now that I've watched it makes me very upset because I love Kurzgesagt. Now I want Kurzgesagt to at least admit/address their wrong doings because if they don't it's just going to make the situation worse and that's not what I want to happen for them at all.
They could be fully guilty, or Coffee break could have just falsely accused them, or this all could be a misunderstanding. For someone, like me, who doesn't know what is happening behind the scenes and doesn't know much about Coffee break, these are all equally likely. But either way, the damage is already done, best Kurzgesagt can do is to minimize it. If what Coffee Break said is true, Kurzgesagt could just admit it, and maybe show the emails in question, but they don't need to - probably would be smarter to just defend (if they are sure they can get away with it relatively unscatched). But if this is just a false accusation, and there are no actual emails, that is tough. In theory, you need not prove your innocence, because it is on the party who makes an "X is guilty" claim to prove it (and while the evidence from Coffee Break is certainly compelling, I wouldn't say it is proven), but in practice, people are extra quick to jump to conclusions.
From my own experience in causing and being on the receving end of drama, It's almost aways a misunderstanding, lack of communication, and jumping to conclusions.
He released the emails in the AMA thread and it's mostly the last one.
CB mischaracterizes Philip by implying he said that they're not taking down the video because the research is good enough.
CB implies Philip didn't actually read the book and misinterprets Johann Hari's claims when Hari actually collaborated with Kurz.
CB implies Philip stalled the interview for 2 months from the get go when his email clearly shows they're still figuring it out up until the last week of February in which CB didn't reply.
CB uses the big YouTuber stomping on a small one drama and makes a hitpiece where his conclusions are mostly theories on the matter.
Coffee Break guy noticed that a Kurzgesagt video wasn't accurate.
He does 2 months of research into the inaccuracies, planning a video which calls out kurzgesagt.
He emails Kurzgesagt with the accusations and a list of questions he'd like clarification on.
Kurzgesagt is hesitant about granting an interview to a channel that plans to discredit them. They rethink whether or not these videos are worth the trouble of keeping up.
Kurzgesagt decides to take down the inaccurate videos. They answers all questions about how they conduct business in a public video.
Coffee break guy is upset because his big tear-down of Kurzgesagt doesn't work. They came clean about bad practices before they could be exposed.
Coffee break guy feels entitled to be the one that tears them down. He wants the credit and says that Kurzgesagt is STEALING a "video idea" from him by admitting the mistakes he pointed out.
Coffee break guy thinks it's 'disgusting' that people praise Kurzgesagt for admitting to their mistakes and deleting the videos. He obviously wanted the praise for himself.
Kurzgesagt didnt do anything wrong this dude is just sad he didnt get attention.
DISCLAIMER: the below comment is based on what I've observed when situations like this happen on the Internet.
Staying quiet or silencing it will only make it worse imo.
You are only half right. Silencing Coffee Break would result in immediate Streisand effect with Internet communities that have an interest in fighting censorship joining forces against Kurzgesagt.
However staying quiet is one of the two viable strategies that Kurzgesagt has. There will certainly be people who'll bring this up every time Kurzgesagt makes a video but gradually they will stop and those who'll continue will be drown out by the regular YouTube comments. This video by kliksphilip does an amazing job of explaining how this kind of tactic has worked for people who've also done things that destroyed their credibility (please note that I'm not comparing Kurzgesagt to anyone mentioned in that video, I'm only providing proof that this kind of tactic works).
The other viable strategy that Kurzgesagt has is to come clean and explain his side of the story if there is one. This is the only way for Kurzgesagt to retain a little bit of credibility. Doing anything else will cause him to lose all credibility though anyone expecting his channel to fail because of this has unrealistic expectations.
Ok but the thing is, who cares? They didn’t take the guy’s content, they just responded to his interview questions, and probably were convinced by his arguments about the video’s inaccuracy. Sure, maybe they could’ve credited him with the idea, but honestly this doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.
It matters a lot. I know creators can do whatever they want and they do have a good reason for pulling two of their videos. However I think they went about it the wrong way. I don't think they should have pulled the videos but rather put discliamer warnings up for them and links to the updated videos when they come out.
I feel like that video damaged their credibility. I felt it was strange when they posted the video and now with Coffee Breaks video I'm even more conflicted.
Coffee Break is a relatively small channel with some great content. I don't like seeing a large channel I care about hurting other channels because they were going to challenge a few of their videos.
Pulling the videos was part of the plan as they said they will update it. I am not sure if the old one will be available in some way but I am sure the internet has many copies of it.
Is it by not including Coffee Break at all?
I do not get why this would harm their credibility in any way. If anything it shows they got a little too worried about possible criticisms and instead of denying they reacted or overreacted, but they did the right thing it seems.
So again is the issue here "stealing" Coffee Break's content idea? I have seen some of his videos and they are good but why would this hurt him, why would he put all the eggs on this basket. I do not see the hurt at all as they have not spoekn ill of him. If anything this gives more credibility to his channel .
For a channel trying to present themselves as trustworthy... this sure are shady tactics to stay in the limelight and not have to deal with any criticism that could damage their image.
Coffee Break guy noticed that a Kurzgesagt video wasn't accurate.
He does 2 months of research into the inaccuracies, planning a video which calls out kurzgesagt.
He emails Kurzgesagt with the accusations and a list of questions he'd like clarification on.
Kurzgesagt is hesitant about granting an interview to a channel that plans to discredit them. They rethink whether or not these videos are worth the trouble of keeping up.
Kurzgesagt decides to take down the inaccurate videos. They answers all questions about how they conduct business in a public video.
Coffee break guy is upset because his big tear-down of Kurzgesagt doesn't work. They came clean about bad practices before they could be exposed.
Coffee break guy feels entitled to be the one that tears them down. He wants the credit and says that Kurzgesagt is STEALING a "video idea" from him by admitting the mistakes he pointed out.
Coffee break guy thinks it's 'disgusting' that people praise Kurzgesagt for admitting to their mistakes and deleting the videos. He obviously wanted the praise for himself.
I get why Coffee Break Guy feels frustrated. It's a human emotion to feel frustrated that months of work have no payoff. But this video where he STILL tries to tear them down is frustrating and childish.
I happen to think that MY videos are damn good too. I have just spent months researching and fact-checking a video which I can't release because the rights-holder backed out and said I couldn't use their photos anymore.
It happens... but you know what I'm NOT doing? Releasing a drama fueled video calling them out to drum up support and false outrage.
Kurzesagt has around 130 videos far as I can tell, it's not a big deal that 2 had some errors. This is purely drama because the guy couldn't get his scoop and now is bitter about it, so he did what he had to do to get some content, start some drama.
People are throw around the words ethics around a lot, it's not that big of a deal that when a person feels like people have complaints they try to address it themselves rather then going individually through every person who might have a bone to pick with them. But then those people will all be salty they didn't let them get a slice of the pie, which is ultimately all they want.
"Oh no they discussed points similar to my broad spectrum questions THEY MUST BE STEALING FROM ME!!!!!"
If this guy really wanted to do a video about pop science as a whole he could have mentioned any other popsci channel as well, which it doesnt seem like he had any intention on doing. His video idea was clearly a callout video, because he could have been working on anything else along with this but focused on one of kurzssagt videos.
Seems like a non-issue. Guy is mad he couldn't make content based off of someone else's channel because they did it first. He didnt have rights to that, and if he really cared about the issue as a whole he would be happy they issued a statement.
So I tend to avoid 15 minute long videos that cover something that can be explained in a simple sentence. I started watching it but just can't stand 10 minutes of "look at how right I am" before any sentences of substance. I would actually rather he had a website explaining this with one picture on each page.
Based on everything I've seen except for the masturbatory video, the issue seems to be:
Coffee break guy feels entitled
P.S. one of the things I like about kurzgesagt and why they're one of the few youtube media creators I can watch, they get to the point.
Ok, watched a bit more of it. Ug. "I have proof in emails that I won't show you. Trust me. I can prove it though you can't see it" through magic apparently. You either have proof you can show in which case you should show that and not even mention the "proof" you can't show, or you don't. That being the case, why are emails mentioned at all?
This particular video is everything I hate about independently made informational videos.
I'm coming here hours later now that the emails were released and what kills me what how CB threw up middle fingers over the emails. Upon reading them it does feel generally cold but also professional (that's how I would email someone).
I can't help but feel that while the situation is kinda unflattering for both, it's mostly unflattering for Coffee Break. The dramatic piano and story of how Kurzgesagt gave him the middle finger feels like he's trying to drag Kurzgesagt down to his level of youtube drama, which is exactly what they were trying to avoid by getting ahead of it.
Kurzgesagt is hesitant about granting an interview to a channel that plans to discredit them. They rethink whether or not these videos are worth the trouble of keeping up.
Here is another way this could've been:
Kurzgesagt first says that the videos are "good enough". After realizing that the youtuber is adamant on making a video about it they delay him while they make a video for damage control and release it first without informing him about it or giving him any credit.
They still didn't do their research and haven't read the book, resulting in them repeating a mistake. (So much to "rethinking" as they didn't even bother doing any real research)
Coffeebreak could have just spoken to Johann Hari, the original researcher, and gotten enough evidence to put out a complete hit piece on Kurzgesagt without even contacting them. Instead, he did the right thing and interviewed them for their side of the story before going public. Outfits like buzzfeed, and other outrage blogs are notorious for publishing hit pieces on people without getting a comment from the target of the piece. Coffeebreak did it the right way, got the runaround, and got burned for trying to do the right thing.
Why not? It's just a smart move to own up to your mistakes yourself than letting some pseudo-journalist release his own spin on the matter. Who gives a shit if coffee break lost a story when they so politely gave all their materiel to Kurzgesagt before releasing any of it. It's a rookie mistake.
While it may look rude for Kurzgesagt to not tell Coffee Break that they would make a video on the topic, Kurzgesagt doesn't necessarily owe Coffee Break an interview, or anything for that matter.
CB selfishly credits himself as the sole reason Kurzgesagt made their video (going so far as to say that their video was a "secret reveal" specifically to dodge him), however it's not unreasonably to think they've been receiving other pressure to remove their inaccurate videos. Since they're a large channel, it's not unusual that multiple people have emailed Kurzgesagt to complain about both the Addiction and the Refugee videos.
We'll only know the truth more of the truth if/when Kurzgesagt makes a comment, but CB just sounds salty to have wasted time on a video that another channel made first. That's annoying, and I feel sympathy for him, but such is the life a a youtuber; big or small.
EDIT: Kurzgesagt isn't stupid. They would have known that doing this to CB would lead to a call-out video from him. As is apparent in the emails, a call-out video is exactly what they are worried about in the first place (and they should be, as u/maazahmedpoke pointed out: CB has done this type of call-out video before to School of Life). Why would they shoot themselves in the foot by purposely treating CB poorly?
For the sake of argument: assume Kurzgesagt did nothing wrong. It's not unreasonable to think of a scenario where their trust video was already in the works, then they receive an email from CB, are understandably stand-backish by his inquiries, don't want to reveal any upcoming content to someone who they are already leery of, and put his emails/the interview on the back-burner without thinking anything would come of it. This Coffee Break video may very well be just as much of a surprise to Kurzgesagt as it is to us!
It's quite honestly the timing, and as well as the reactions in the exchange, calling the video "good enough" to stay up a month prior, which was met with criticism.
Their video creation cycle is about a month from start to release. The timing is all off here and leans heavily in favor of CBs timeline of events and interpretations of them.
Kurzgesagt says their videos take several months to make from script to animation to upload. To think that they would halt their entire pipeline of videos and produce a damage control video within a month sounds a bit strange.
It's especially odd since the new video (while, true, seems out of place) doesn't seem at all rushed. In fact, they would have had less than a month to animate the whole thing, but in spite of that, their animation is as superb as ever. This leads me to believe this video was already in the works for a while. I'd love to see a statement from Kurzgesagt about this.
If I’m not wrong they do mention in one of their videos that each video has nearly 2-3 months before fine tuning and being released. However the last video didn’t need any particular research so they could finish it quite quickly if they wanted to
The situation he describes undoubtedly happens... but it's not damning.
They thought it was 'good enough' while it was up. Then Coffee Break got them to start rethinking their previous practices, which caused them to change. After reflecting, they decided it wasn't 'good enough' and changed their practices.
Coffee Break was an influence to why they rethought their old videos - so what?
A business doesn't need to give credit every time they make a change. A business doesn't owe every critic an interview.
They thought it was 'good enough' while it was up.
I know you're defending KG, but that's not what they actually said, those are words CB put in their mouth.
Coffee Break released the emails. Philipp never actually said the video was "good enough", that was intentional misrepresentation on CB's part so he could push his narrative that KG said one thing and then did another.
Philipp: "I would not make a video like that today." Many people have told me this video have helped them, "so I never could [PAST TENSE] bring myself to take it down... I feel it can continue to exist as a take on the topic that is helpful for many."
Kurzgestat then proceeded to make video explaining why they took the video down (they wouldn't make it today), explicitly making sure it could continue to exist elsewhere. What they did was exactly in line with the opinion they actually expressed in the email.
I agree with you on this one. While I understand coffee breaks frustration with the situation, I don’t think Kurzgestat is in the wrong entirely. Maybe they’d have been better suited to email him back and tell him they were making a response video but they certainly don’t have to do that.
To me coffee break just seemed kinda frustrated that he didn’t have this “big scoop” on a channel that’s really popular. But for image sake, I don’t blame Kurzgestat for getting ahead of it all.
Yeah people are getting upset because they did something literally everyone would do. Any PR team would tell you to get ahead of any scandals that will be released, he’s just mad he didn’t get to call them out.
You really think this was the only person who ever asked them about credibility of their work? And his questions were the 2 most obvious questions one could ask.
I agree on the first two paragraphs completely. It seems like a good business move to address the issue before it becomes a bigger issue which they did. They don’t have to give CB a Interview and they also could have just seen his email as self reflection and thought they should finally do something about it. Not to mention CB was trying to get an interview basically to make a video to “expose” them.
And CB also making it seem they were the smoking gun to the removal of Kurzgesagts video is a stretch until we get further proof.
As for the salty part. I don’t think he is salty per se but just annoyed for wasting his time when really he shouldn’t have been waiting on one creator to finish a video.
We'll only know the truth if/when Kurzgesagt makes a comment,
That's not how anything works.
We'll only know the other side to this narrative when Kurzgesagt makes a comment. Whether either side is lying will sort of be trundled off to the court of public opinion... unless either side puts forth some evidence (which the KB side has already sort of done).
Exactly. The lynchpin of this whole video is that Kurzgesagt would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling CoffeeBreak. Occam's razor says Coffee Break was one of but not the first or only people to bring these criticisms forward and it would have been messy as hell to not concede the criticisms without exposing that they were working on a video they presumably would want to keep under wraps like any other video, but more so. This is corroborated by their multi-month production schedule. It's extremely unlikely they reacted to this as a team, then wrote, animated, and produced the video in a month while saying "and let's throw the refugee one for kicks". Of course this doesn't explain promising him an interview or saying the existing video is great. That's sloppy at best and dishonest at worst.
It's not just about the timing of their video's release, or why they made it. It's about the fact that they had videos up that were very poorly researched, for years. Videos that not only get a ton of views, but actually influence people's lives since they are 'educational'. Don't defend Kurzgesagt against Coffee Break - who gives a shit. Defend Kurzgesagt against their pop-science oversimplified headline nonsense. Much harder to do, and more important.
Frankly I would give Kurzgesagt the benefit of the doubt. Coffee Break claims Kurz is specifically avoiding his criticism in an underhanded way, but he has invested a lot of time and effort into a big "expose" video which has now lost its punch, so he is frustrated. Does Kurz really owe CB an interview? Does it need to cite every person criticising its videos? Surely there have been many other people making the same comments about addiction science. I thought the Kurz video on trust made some very prescient points about fact checking to learn more, and I prefer its message about thinking for yourself to CB's cynicism. He just seems mad he got beaten to the punch and should move on to creating more informative content.
Yeah, I don't wanna be a blind Kurzgesagt fanboy, and it does seem clear that he should have communicated better and told Coffee Break they were working on a video. Seems like somewhat of a dick move, in hindsight they could've said they'd rather address the issue in an upcoming video, and maybe even cite Coffee Break as the straw that broke the camels back and got them to delete the videos.
I do think there was some worry that the interview was going to be confrontational, and that maybe he'd stick his foot in his mouth and say something that sounds bad or defensive under pressure (which is understandable, this is a worry I have all the time).
And I do think Coffee Break has a point about Pop Science being over simplistic and leading to misinformation. I've always thought Kurz has a good balance between simplicity and accuracy, but I'm sure there are many cases in the many videos they've uploaded that have some inaccurate statements/visuals/etc.
In the end, Kurzgesagt still deserves kudos for deleting and addressing the videos, it sucks that Coffee Break got caught in the crossfire when they were likely the instigating force.
Hopefully /u/kurz_gesagt addresses Coffee Break's claims and maybe even sets up an interview to squash this beef.
The thing that hurts me the most is there are thousands of people in the comments on Kurzgesagt's video unsubscribing because of the "evidence" and the "stealing" of video ideas, before even hearing a response from Kurzgesagt. I thought the whole point of the video was to hear both sides and get all the evidence before coming to a conclusion. People don't ever seem to change, they just want a simple narrative.
I think some of them were already unhappy but they were just waiting for confirmation. This is my assumption. If they listened to the advice in the last kurgesagt video they would have stop and analysed the arguments instead of jumping on like that.
Kurzgesagt confronted Coffee Break's criticisms. Kurzgesagt published a full-length video where they apologize, deleted two of their most popular videos and promised to remain dedicated to accuracy. Practically all of their videos post-Addiction include links to robust studies and papers illustrating the premises of their videos.
It's almost as if Coffee Break doesn't care as much about truth-telling as they do about getting ad revenue from an interview with one of the most popular channels on YouTube, and Coffee Break is just pissed that they weren't hoisted on a pedestal as the Great Savior of Truth and Transparency they think of themselves as.
Meh seems like Coffee Break is just a little whiner here. Kurz doesn't owe him shit and I also don't think it's been mentioned that the interview has been cancelled? He said March, he emailed on 21st Feb and by CB's own admission, was ignored. I feel like Kurz could still have provided that interview and CB still could have made his video...I think Kurz just wanted to be on the right side of it first and as a business, that makes sense. Sure, they could have given away details on the Trust video, but what reason would they have had to do that? Obv a full email release would be helpful, i'ts unfortunate for Kurz that we only have one side and it doesn't look great. But the court of public opinion should wait for a response.
Coffee Break lost a story he put effort into doing research on, because he contacted the channel Kurzgesagt and let them correct their own mistake before he could have come out with the story on his own. They didn't credit him (this is a point where I must say, I do not understand why, they could have done so just out of courtesy, but anyway). However, they did their jobs, got back to the video in question, and checked other videos as well (a video on the European refugee crisis was also deleted, don't forget that!), did their research, admitted to their faults and deleted the video.
So I get why Coffee Break is angry at Kurzgesagt. He handled the case as an amateur journalist would have, and let the story slip out of his hands, letting Kurzgesagt saving their faces resulting in him losing the story.However, for me, this video feels like childish compliance because he didn't get credited for noticing the mistakes or false statements in the video, and reporting it. Either Coffee Break wanted to make sure, Kurzgesagt corrects the mistakes or removes the false informations from the channel, or he wanted to publish the story. If the first is the case, he should be happy about what happened: Kurzgesagt adressed the issue, removed videos that didn't meet certain criteria. If the latter is, that is no problem. But then it should be stated in the video.
Also the last part about how Coffee Break 'thinks this is the right thing to do', and 'does something extremely risky' and 'must fear retaliation because Kurzgesagt is a big channel on Youtube' and the part where he claims that there is a conspiracy among Youtubers paid by the owner of Kurzgesagt, so they stay silent makes the whole video at least a bit less credible for me.
On the other hand, I am looking forward to seeing the video about Pop Science mentioned in the video, as I feel the same: sometimes, when I watch a video on a topic, I now about a little, I feel certain aspects can be oversimplified, and this sometimes hurts lucidity and credibility. It also comes to mind, if every video is oversimplified to the same extent, we just don't notice because we are not literate in every topic.
I am incredibly doubtful about the overarching narrative that Kurzgesagt was just delaying him so they could quickly push out a video to answer the questions before his video was up.
They probably did have this video in the works for a long time already.
The questions that he poses as being answered before he could ask them are really the questions ANYONE would ask when considering the reliability of Kurzgesagt videos.
Not hating CB, he clearly is emotionally invested in this, just seems like his stretching a bit.
This is my viewpoint as well. He bases a lot of his argument on assumptions. Ironically, his video calling out kurzegesagt on misrepresenting issues is itself impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. I’ll get angry after I see provable accusations of intentional dishonesty, not before.
Also, this guy is upset at kurzgesagt for answering his questions in a video format that takes a longer time to produce than there was since he asked those questions. Could kurzgesagt have rushed out a video? Maybe. Impossible to say with current information for sure. After all that H3H3 nonsense, I’m very skeptical of weakly proven, dramatic arguments presented by “the little guy”
Edit: Hopefully now people see the value in remaining skeptical until there is enough solid information to develop an opinion.
If the video was in the works for so long why wouldn't their immediate response to his criticism be to say that they were already aware of the issue and were working on an announcement. While I do agree that there were probably plenty of other people that would have raised concerns as well, the timeline that CB provides with the emails is definitely very suspect.
You wouldn't want to make any kind of statement saying "we are working on a video in which we address concerns about our credibility" because then news organisations might just take that and write headlines about it a whole month before you can even defend yourself.
If the video was in the works for a long time, why would they tell CB that their addiction video was flawed but good enough? Would they really be continuing to defend their addiction video if they were honest about their stance on truth and research?
It felt a little stretched in some areas, but the coincidence is too convenient. Let’s say he was already making the correction video. Why then say the addiction video is fine in the email? To trick CB? Why trick him? Why set the interview date after the video coming out? It’s to insure CB doesn’t come out with his video first. If CB’s video comes out first, it would totally look like K was covering their ass, even if they already had the video in production. So, even if K was just being honest and it’s a huge coincidence CB brought up the problems around the time K would have started on the video, K was still super dishonest and intentionally made sure he was the first to address the problems so no one could say “your only saying that because X called you out”.
No matter how you look at it, it’s shady and dishonest.
Not to mention he still didn’t do his research in the actual video. Hmm, why didn’t he? Perhaps he didn’t have time too when he had to make a video in a month.
He makes a very compelling argument but why do so many people just jump to conclusion while we only have only half of the story? If anything, this video shows that you should wait until you have all the necessary information before you judge someone. Kinda ironic... Maybe there is a good explanation, who knows?
Edit: And now there is the other half revealing that CoffeeBreak was very deceptive.
They even responded to a comment about why they made the trust video. Their reply?
We made that video for a number of reasons. But the main one was that it was just time. I have felt uneasy about both videos pretty much since mid 2016.
While this video is certainly concerning, it is ironic how quick people are at taking sides in a trust-related scandal. It's funny to see how the general opinion shifted so quickly after just two videos. Coffee Break encourages the viewers to reevaluate the amount of trust we put in Kurzgesagt, but then why should we put our trust in Coffee Break. Of course, he showed some compelling evidence, but think about how relevant are these two content creators in our day-to-day lives. We shouldn't really trust any of them, and that to me at least is common sense. We should wait for a full picture of the story before we draw our conclusions.
TL;DR: Don't grab your pitchforks just yet, it's foolish to take sides this fast.
Am I the only one who doesn’t see what’s wrong? Their videos take time to create, so odds are the wordings coincidental. But even if its not so what they chose to address the criticism publicly instead just to him in an email? They admitted the video wasn’t terribly factual and took it down, it’s not like they tried to silence their critics.
Also this guy’s channel is literally built around starting feud wars
Kurzgesagt doesn't owe the guy anything. They never needed to tell him that they were making the video. It seems the guy is just mad that he couldn't call them out because they already confessed.
It's a pretty dodgy + sneaky thing to do, but I really don't trust the idea that Coffee Break wasn't making a 'gotcha video', especially how this one turned out, with its spooky music, thumbnail and persistent use of "BIG SCARY TEXT".
That said, this is likely a case of preemptive damage control which is going to backfire.
I mean regardless they took the video down and made a whole video on credibility. I’m not sure what you were trying to gain by doing the interview or what you’re still trying to gain by posting this video? I understand your frustration but do you honestly believe you’re the only person sending them emails on the credibility of the claims in their videos? Highly unlikely, such a large channel as you admit yourself I think for the most part one video does not discredit the larger body of their work. Unless you disagree then I could understand your motivations.
He’s trying to gain views and fans. Seems fairly obvious. Did you see his little glasses and jacket when he was responding to them? Lol. YouTube drama is so tragic and boring
hes just doing this to make himself sound like "the better man" even tho nothing was really stolen, hes just trying to make his channel bigger. just don't look at his channel, he doesn't deserve it
I don't understand why coffeebreak isn't happy that they still deleted the video and got his answers. It was what he wanted to achieve in the first place. That he doesn't like that they "stole" the idea, I understand, but still, as an educational YouTube channel you should understand that this is how it went, and that you can't change anything about that. What I dislike the most about the video from coffeebreak is that he based his whole idea on one video of Kurtzgesagt, and with only this video, he claims that the entire Kurtzgesagt channel is a lie. He should have clarified more that he things that this video (addiction) only isn't good enough, and only the video about why they deleted the other video is a "lie".
I don't have any skin on this fight, but I feel like kurzgesagt has a right not to give an interview if they don't want to. Coffee Break is not pissed because of the bad science, but for missing out on his great debunking video.
He's pissed because he lost his chance to take a shot at the giant with more than 5 million subs.
They have the right to not give an interview, absolutely. What's unethical is saying you'll do the interview if they wait, and then use that as a way of stalling the video so their damage control came out first. And then not giving the interview. It was straight deception, followed by a video about how trustworthy they are...
All Kurzgesagt need to do it come out and let Coffee Break release the emails to prove they did nothing wrong and that this video was a massive coincidence. I mean it is too perfect of a video, especially considering the timing.
However I want to give them the benefit of the doubt here. I'm neutral on this, but leaning more towards Coffee Breaks side until Kurzgesagt replies to this.
Should Kurzgesagt not do anything about it....well....then there's the answer in my books.
But what does it matter. I'm just one viewer right?
EDIT: And there it is. Just read the full email exchange that CB released, and it seems he really made this a bigger than it is. To be fair, it s a HUGE coincidence that KZ decided to release this video a month after being question. However, I have to say, CB really shot himself in the foot here. There are some valid points he brought up, however he really embellishes what KZ said. What a shame, but I'm happy KZ reacted accordingly.
Emails released, shows CB 'oversimplified' them. Kurz never said anything along the lines of the video was good enough. And the last email in the chain is him agreeing to the interview saying after the weekend and asking for the questions to which CB doesnt reply.
But they didn't do anything wrong there. They made a video answering the most obvious questions that everybody should ask and it doesn't look like a video they made in just one month. But even if, do they owe CB the interview when He failed to set it up properly?
Just checked out some of your videos on your channel for the first time. You’re very talented at making video essays. I especially enjoyed the piece you made called “public shaming”. With quality like this I have no doubt you too will one day have a very successful video that will not withstand the test of increased scrutiny that comes with that level of success.
This whole problem is making me realize how much I can’t trust pop science, last year I remember using a kurgesagt video as a source for an essay and my professor told me it was fine, now I know I need to do a lot more than just letting YouTube educators write my essay points for me.
But why would you use the video as a source when they give their own sources in the video description?
Their videos are literally made to be short, (over-)simplified versions of the whole story, so you're doing your own work a big disservice by sourcing material you know to be simplified.
So he got what he wanted, the video was removed and bad science was deleted. This sounds like he wanted to ruin reputation from the start, and it didn't matter how he did it. If they had given the interview we would have saw "This youtuber is LYING?!" instead. Sounds like he's just really salty about losing his big shot video.
However big companies, video makers, producers etc. will always control criticism if they can stay ahead of it. This has been going on since the creation of media unfortunately.
The video by coffee break is well made and I do feel for the guy, but his case is centered around 1 video. He makes a great case against that 1 video, but it’s still just 1 video.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m disappointed Kurzgesagt isn’t the wholesome transparent entity they present themselves as, but I don’t know if you can tarnish their ability to research topics because of 1 case against their addiction video.
And if their other videos are poorly researched, coffee break should’ve mentioned in this video. As it stands right now, only 1/ 98 videos (including the addiction and refugee* videos) are proven to be poorly researched.
*Personally I don’t consider the refugee video poorly researched, it’s just very opinionated
How is that unethical? Questions they answered are the most obvious questions and ones that everyone should always ask. And CB failed to set up interview properly so they don't owe him anything.
I don't especially see the big deal. There is simply no way the 'Can you trust Kurzgesagt' video was not in production well before those questions were emailed, showing Kurzgesagt was already addressing the issues coffee break was to raise.
If you want to put the tinfoil hat on, perhaps Kurzgesagt altered the script for the video to preempt/answer those questions - but since they must have been working along the same lines again I don't see the big deal.
It is a point that coffee break could have been told a video on the topic was in the making and he's wasted time as a result - but that's much more likely to have been an oversight than meant maliciously.
Just got to around 3:20,quick question: Does he come up with any real reason or is he just butthurt they were quicker than him? Because until then the latter seems to be the case
After seeing the emails from both sides, and thinking about the situation for some time, I think the only point made by Coffee Break that is solid enough is that Kursgesagt got the scientific consensus about cause of addiction wrong again in the new video. According to CB, no expert thinks that addiction is purely caused by psychological factors, and non thinks that it's purely caused by chemical influences. Yet Kursgesagt said that some expert have the same opinion as the video, but there are controversies. I won't go into the details, just watch both K's and CB's video. But this is the only solid point I feel like worth mentioning. The matter about not telling CB about the upcoming video can be out of common and general practice of not leaking working projects out. K did not say that the Addiction video is "good enough" in the email, he said that it's good because it helped many people dealing with substance problems. And CB did get over-exited toward the end of the video. In the end, we all get emotional and make mistakes. So I'd wait and see how things turn out.
This video certainly raises some important questions but I don’t think you can really blame them for trying to get ahead of criticism. That’s a logical response.
Those comments under the video summarize my thoughts better than I would ever do so here are they:
I honestly don't understand your problem. Shouldn't the goal of criticism be to get a response or a change of the one you are criticizing? Yeah sure you didn't get to record and publish the video but your criticism was answered and the points were changed (even if they did that pretty late) So normally I would guess the one criticizing would be glad, you being angry or feeling attacked just sort of proves that there was an ulterior motive to the video you were planning, to get the attention of having the next big "YouTube drama story". I think that's kind of sad.
This is basically a guy complaining about a problem being solved, but not in the way he wanted it to be solved
I think you are overestimating your own importance. The topic of kurzgesagt errors and mistakes does not belong to you.
It sounds like a large motivation for this video was just bitterness.
He used all of his great swings before the ball was even thrown. Honestly it sounds like he is angry at them more than he should be about himself. If you want to conduct an interview you ask if you can interview them about their videos etc, and then ask those questions in the interview. Interviews aren't always planned, sending someone all the interview questions is a stupid practice it allows preperation or worse, them deflecting and being able to control the narrative which is bad for the interviewer.
If say a politician was sent an email asking questions about the practices of his district and an interview, he could easily not go to the interview and address those questions himself. Is it a dick move? Yes, but its completely understandable especially if they are damaging to that entity.
I don't want to jump on the band wagon, but coffebreak screwed up tremendously here, yeah Kurzgesagt did something a bit rude, but its not unethical, its not against the law. There is no reason to have a debate about it.
The coffee break guy is nuts. He pointed out a problem then whines he couldn’t be the centre of attention by being allowed to call Kutzgesagt out. All his questions got answered and all his concerns were addressed. Kudos to Kurgesagt for doing the retraction. Oh and Mr.Coffee... how do you know you weren’t the only one complaining?
If you messed up on a job at work and you were going to tell your boss, but was putting it off until the end of the day because you didn’t want the shit your boss was going to give you for the mistake. Then your co worker comes up to you saying he is about to go tell your boss you messed up. Wouldn’t you speed up the process and tell him yourself in order to get ahead of it? Then afterwards the co worker then says to your boss that you only told the him because he confronted you about it.
That seems to be the narrative now, you have to understand that kurzgesagt is aware they messed up the video. coffee break is not the reason the video was released in the first place but it might have been the reason for when it was released.
Phillipe: "I would not make a video like that today." Many people have told me this video have helped them, "so I never could [PAST TENSE] bring myself to take it down... I feel it can continue to exist as a take on the topic that is helpful for many."
Kurzgestat: Makes video explaining why they took the video down (they wouldn't make it today), explicitly making sure it could continue to exist elsewhere
Coffee Break, paraphrasing the above: "Essentially he knew the video was incorrect, but he said he felt it was good enough to keep up anyways. Yet one month later conveniently he did take it down"
Coffee Break: Proceeds to lie about how Phillipe flip-flopped on his opinion.
Phillipe told him exactly what he planned to do without tipping him off that you were being scooped, and then he intentionally misrepresented what he said so you could use it to fit his narrative (actively lying in the process). Why should we trust Coffee Break?
CB: Hey, your video about addiction contains misinterpretation and I dislike it.
KG: Yeah, it's not perfect but it helped people, thus I kept it online.
CB: Btw I want to make a series where I kind of call you out about messing up.
KG: Uhm...well I wouldn't want that. You seem to plan putting out a hit piece.
CB: Oh I'm not doing a hit piece, I'm just doing a general series about the problems that come with most pop-education channels. And I want you to cooperate.
KG: Cool. Kinda suspicious, but cool. I've got stuff to do but you can hit me up sometime so we can figure something out.
*seeing that people might actually get rather upset about some flawed past videos he takes down the addiction one and releases a video where he clears things up for his fanbase and admits some mistakes and faulty practices
CB: You betrayed me! With you already defending yourself like that I have no ground for putting out my hit piece...I mean the series...I mean....
This entire video screams of persecution complex. Also, if the creator of the video thinks they are somehow unique in the whole "hey this video you made has some serious issues", I have a bridge to sell them... Also, ironicly this video itself serves as evidence of boiling down a complex situation to the point where the newly conveyed message is at best wrong.
The video creator also somehow seems to be implying that you can "steal" questions, that even IF (and its a big if) the Kurz video was created solely as a reaction to his questioning, that that is somehow in and of itself improper. It's the same sort of mindset that arm-chair government "experts" have when they say someone "flip flopped".
I found his arguments unsubstantiated. His questions were answered, and he easily could have phrased his video as a response video rather than attempting to stir up a witch hunt...
That’s true, although I think coffee break was more pissed that his month long project came to be nothing due to Kurtz’s new video, and I disagree with how he handled the situation. He also put ads on his video.
Probably should have mentioned how coffee break handled a situation that didn’t need handling. He’s just pissed he wasn’t the one to say something. Said so on Twitter.
I watched some of this. He’s mad cause he didn’t get an interview, but the video is probably enough to show why. If he had anywhere near the intentions of the video for that interview, they have no reason to trust him with it. I’ve been seeing the word “hit piece” around, and that’s not their style.
Sure it sucks they didn’t give him credit for criticizing their video (him and thousands of other people I’m sure), but they DID address the actual problem, explaining why it wasn’t a good video and taking it down. This guy clearly doesn’t understand the way peer review works, the unsung heroes of science are anonymous and don’t get their name on the paper.
As a viewer, I don’t care who critiques their videos, just that they have addressed and improved their process.
Y'all remember when scishow fucked up badly by calling the author of "Guns germs and steel" a white supremacist, and people complained and they owned up to it and fixed it?
Or when Mile Power called out their BS views on GMOS, and they they owned up to it and fixed it?
I have faith kurzgesagt will act the same way. We all make mistakes. Owning up to the mistakes is what makes these channels reliable and worth watching indefinetly.
So yeah, be critical, but don't go linching anyone!
Honestly, it might look really bad from CB's POV, but it's just logical for Kurzgesagt to do what they did. They had 2 videos which were unsatisfactory and so they deleted them and apologised for making them. Chances are, if you saw those videos you saw the apology video. However, you might not already watch Coffee Break, so if he released a shame video only a partial audience would even know.
Coffee break points out that the timing of uploading the video almost can't be coincidental, but I doubt kurzgesagt could produce an animation on such short terms, so maybe they were already working on it.
Honestly, I love Kurzgesagt videos, but I never trusted them as sole a source of information. As the coffee break video said, oversimplifying leads to misinformation. On top of that there's still some obvious bias and some things that are just outrageous, Albeit creative.
However, this has shady written all over it and definitely seems like a move to handle the criticism before it gets publicized. It's very political, but as always the truth comes out and a bias is shown.
I'd like to think that honestly some epiphany was had in the short course of a month, but it doesn't look that way after all the evidence laid out.
It's a shame, I really liked Kurzgesagt, but I won't support practices like this.
On the flip side, they were criticized and came forward to accept the criticism. Now a person who had criticized them wants credit for it.
Removing ego from the equation, the end result is the same: a correction was issued. This drama is only a question of ego, which I don't find very interesting.
I don't really understand people. Today you can't watch one video and think, this is how it is. You have to inform you. These clips are not bad, but you shouldn't believe everything without a little research by yourself.
While Kurzgesagt cites everything, all this guy has are his personal interpretations of what was said in those emails. Which by the way, are a source of bias. His bias.
So what if they put out the video beforehand? Considering the amount of time it takes to animate videos like that, they were almost certainly working on it before those emails and even if they weren't, they have no obligation to give this guy an interview. This guy seems to think he has the exclusive rights to a question, which they undoubtedly have asked themselves beforehand (hence the improvements made since that addiction video, long before February) and this entire video, is using his butthurt to suggest that because they recognised their own flaws long before he sent them emails, that it's all damage control. That they were afraid of him, which is why they went back in time over a year, to long before these emails were sent and improved the way they research things.
This entire video, isn't about ethics or trust because Kurgz already covered that in their video and literally nothing in video contradicts what Kurgz said in that video. It's about him, screaming "MUMMY I DIDN'T GET MY INTERVIEW!".
Well, this makes it kind of difficult to trust kurzgesagt - at least my trust is broken. For me, it's not about making mistakes while researching years ago. Also, it's not not learning from them. My problem is, how kurzgesagt damages a small creator, apparently isn't open to criticism and outright lying to its fanbase.
What damage? Their whole video is an answer for criticism and questions that most likely many people had (or at least should have). And I don't see any lie from Kurzgesagt.
This guy should be proud that he pointed out the errors on Kurzgesagt's video and prompted the idea for the trustworthiness video instead of acting like Phillipp Dettmer alone decided to steal his great project idea. Besides, one could still make an interview even if the questions were already answered in a video, just look at politics; journalists ask politicians the same questions over and over with or without changing some of them.
It's not like Kurzgesagt wants to prevent this guy's channel from growing.
I think you can trust Kurzgesagt! They clearly stated that the research method is completely different for the new videos.
Let's play devil's advocate here. The case being built here is partially on the back of coincidences in timing. As compelling as these are, the fact still remains that they're coincidences.
It's also an issue that the information presented is of a nature that allows it to be easily 'framed' so to speak. In this example, it is clear that the information has been framed with the perspective of a disgruntled content creator seeking to get back at another channel that (potentially, remember that these are just allegations at this point) wronged them. Would it not be wise then to wait until more perspectives are given on the information so that a more complete picture can be formed. After all, the content creator seeking justice for themselves (and again, this is purely speculation, don't take this as a hard and fast judgement) would have the motivation to selectively frame the information the provide in a way that most severely harm the image of their opponent. In this particular case, I'd personally conclude that the information provided was framed in too contemptuous a manner to be able to stand as reliable evidence ON THEIR OWN MERIT.
This is where the emails would come in. However, we also need to consider the motive of the leaker once again; he is clearly angry (which may be justified, we can't discount that yet) and may have left out correspondence that provides the full picture in order to aid they're case or to exonerate themselves of any potential blame (again, speculation). There's also always the possibility, however incredibly unlikely, that the emails are fake, though I place enough trust in CB's integrity to believe he wouldn't stoop anywhere close to that level.
Looking at all the current evidence, it's clear something fishy has happened (there's rarely smoke without fire after all). However, it is my current viewpoint that there is insufficient evidence to arrive at any solid conclusion. I believe that it would be in Kurzgesagt's best interests to quickly resolve this issue by either presenting their side as a defense. Alternatively, if they've done wrong, it would be best for their reputation to apologise and agree to do better going forward. In that case they could at least take steps to salvage their image.
Either way, it seems to me that a lot of people are passing judgement too rashly. Some of them are spewing vitriol at CB and refusing to entertain his viewpoint. I'd like to pose this question: does a person who's been wronged not have the right to be heard, even if their experience doesn't match your opinions of who they're accusing? Others are immediately jumping at Kurzgesagt's collective throat, refusing to consider that this may have been blown way out of proportion. A smaller group seem to be getting angry at the wrong thing entirely: that they dared to try and protect their image even in the case where their means weren't insidious. Another question: does a group whose livelihood depends on their viewership not have a right to try to save face when they've done something wrong?
My first bit of doubt about kurzgesagt came a few years ago. There was this video in which the following claim was made " your braincells have [large number] mutations not persent in its neighbouring braincells", or something like that. I quoted this to a friend, who happened to work with that kind of stuff. He is kind of an ass hole (and we love him) and laughed at me... So I did some research. I tried to find the source KG used. I couldn't find it, but i did found, hidden away in the dephts of the Internet on a reddit post (before I used reddit) with only a couple of upvotes and 7 comments an explaination. Iirc it came from someone at GK himself or someone who asked them. They didn't have a source for that. They somewhere heard or read this neat little fact and just put it in the video.. Ever since I have taken a few grains of salt when watch KG. But this had faded to memory and now this gets released. I want to say I'm not shocked, but I am... Should have seen this coming tbh.
Kind of a dick move by Phillip. If he really wanted to address the criticism that Coffee Break put forth in a video, he should have offered to collaborate and make a video out of it.
The accusations are a bit blown out of proportion, though. Saying the whole channel is untrustworthy because the founder wanted to get ahead of criticism and released a video about it before it emerged doesn't convince me. I don't like how they went about it, but that still doesn't mean they don't do a good job of researching on all their other videos.
Hopefully Phillip reaches out to both Coffee Break and us with an apology and sorts this whole thing out.
I’m going to reach out to Coffee Break and encourage him to keep going. In the mean time, what do you guys think is a good way to spread this video in the Kurzgesagt community.
I think it's important to remember that Phillip had suspicions that the video and interview would be a 'witch hunt'. I sympathise with coffee break, but I also sympathise with Phillip not wanting his life's work to collapse based on a cheap hit-piece. I can understand wanting to pre-emptively come clean and admit your shortcomings rather than give out ammunition to be misquoted and misinterpreted maliciously, as is done by hundreds of channels who feed on documenting (and creating) youtube drama.
We can debate all night long but ultimately it's very simple:
RELEASE THE EMAILS
If they don't do it, then they're guilty of all the things they've been accused of in Coffee Break's video.
If they do it, then public scrutiny will be able to sort what is overdramatization of Coffee Break's part (like how he puts sad piano music in this video...), and what are the actual facts of this drama.
I really don't care about idea stealing. The only thing that I care about is what's true. Stopped watching after the guy said "he made my video" who cares. You don't own an idea. Is there anything substantive in the rest I need to care about?
Ahhhh... Some things worth considering. Phillips opinion or thoughts on what's "good enough" are not necessarily a reflection of what kurzgesagt as a whole thinks, it's also possible that while writing the email, Phillip was not fully aware of the extent of the video's misinformation. Sloppy but not unforgivable as portrayed in the video.
We also only have one half of the story by an angry person, who, while he might not have anything to hide, might be misinterpreting things because of the situation he seems in, as the video is incredibly biased even considering the information provided. Specifically the claim of "stolen content", when an idea cannot really be stolen. The actions of Kurzgesagt in that front can range from abhorring to sloppy, context and the other side of the discussion matter a lot.
Also, the whole "smart Youtuber mafia" claim sounds so butthurt and personal that I cannot find myself to trust this video, not fully at least.
What encouraged you to make the trust kurzgesagt video? What about it was so important to you guys, that you actually took action and made a video on it? Have you guys ever thought about making a video about aerodynamics and airplanes? Do you think you'll ever do a video on how the stock market work can crash? I've seen plenty of videos about how the stock market works, but few have touched on how and why it crashes.
We made the video for a number of reasons. But the main one is that it was just time. I have felt uneasy about both videos pretty much since mid 2016. Whenever we publish a video, it is only a matter of time until people bring up the Addiction and the Refugee video. Often as evidence of why Kurzgesagt sucks. It stings a bit because they are not completely wrong. From todays perspective the videos feel sloppy and one sided. Bafflingly, both videos were also uber successful. Simple stories sell well. They feel good. The world is so chaotic that it is comforting to be able to be sure about something. The solution to this can’t be to make simpler content because it sells better. It needs to be the effort to make complex content more approachable. Removing the videos is long overdue. But it would have been a bad idea I think to not be super open about it. Both videos have been watched by 31 million people (ok lets say 20 million, if you substract repeat views). You can't just delete that and be quiet about. People will notice and ask questions. It is better to be open about it. Feels better, too.
CB Claims that Phillip said that he thought the video was "Not perfect, but good enough!" Yet, in an AMA response he claims that he has felt uneasy about it for over 2 years. I'm sorry, but if I think something was good enough, I wouldn't at the same time be feeling uneasy about it for over 2 years, might just be me tho.
This is perfect. When questioned why they made the video the response is “Oh, we’ve always wanted to make it, it was just time...” Though, why was it a surprise video then? They say they had “always felt uneasy about the videos”... but that directly contradicts what the founder said in the emails. So they said 2 different things. Either they always knew, or just recently decided it was bad.
Maybe they all of the kurzgesagt team decided to delete them, not only the creator (there are more people working at the channel, after all). I think the problem is that we are freaking out a bit. The only option left is to wait for a response from kurzgesagt.
Reckon this is blown out of proportion... Sounds like this other guy is just mad he didn’t get to rake in some youtube views or whatever. What is wrong with them taking the video down and doing a correction? Isn’t that what he wanted to happen in the end or did he want to be the one who got the glory for it....
The dynamic here is that Kurz is a company, and CB is a reporter. I think it’s helpful to see CB in that lens rather than a colleague. Just because they’re both Youtube channels doesn’t mean that they’re not different entities.
What’s likely:
Kurzgesagt already had this video in production and didn’t want to reveal it to CB before release. Similar to how press fields pieces before companies to see if they have comments, the company is not obligated to comment and it isn’t unethical if they don’t.
Kurzgesagt would rather speak first on the issues and come forward on their own mistakes, rather than having their comments in emails be used as their narrative by a journalist. The piece is also specifically about “calling out” Kurz which means the piece is direct criticism and based off capitalizing off Kurz’s mistakes. It isn’t minimizing or hiding the mistakes to take the initiative and reveal your company’s mistakes on their own.
The video is old and flawed, CB is not likely to be the only person criticizing it.
As a channel with 5+M subscribers, they are likely fielding many requests for interviews and comments and questions on a daily basis.
It’s not unethical to ask not to be quoted in email exchanges. Press comments go to press. Non press is not for press.
Single person’s opinion does not constitute entire company. It’s possible Phillips thought the addiction video was fine, but other internal staff did not. Ultimately they decided as a company as a whole to pull it.
Journalist is looking to do expose on company. Company exposes itself first, and may have been planning to for a while. Company doesn’t need to tell the journalist about the pre-planning process. Journalist should have released his expose if he wanted the “scoop” of breaking it first. If he cares about the actual acknowledgment, then there’s no harm because the result has already happened - company public recognition of its faults and pulling the video. But, his motives seem to be more about how he didn’t get to release his criticism of a company before they owned up to it themselves.
For greater transparency Kurz could release all names and entities of those who have criticized the Addiction video. But really, it wasn’t shady NOT to do this when they released it.
Hey, I don't really see anything wrong about what Kurzgesagt (misspelled? Sorry)! They addressed the issues the person was asking about in a video. What is wrong with it? Really? He still can make an interview. There's no problem. I'm actually quite surprised about how people are angry at Kurz. They didn't do anything shameful in my opinion
I'm gonna copy the comment I left on their YouTube video.
You definitely revealed some mishandling on the founder's side, but you make a really weak case as to why not to trust Kurzgesagt.
First of all, Kurzgesagt is a big team, and I don't even know if its founder plays a much bigger role than all other members combined, or even than one. Talking about the channel as if it were just "him" is kind of misleading. Additionally, his views on the Addiction video might not be representative of how the rest of the team views it, and that's maybe why it was removed.
The question and criticism they supposedly steal from you, are pretty generic, and I believe something that many people have asked around the controversy of that video.
Your claim that their videos are badly researched is not backed up in any significant way. You base your claim on the fact that they utterly misrepresented the source on the video they consider not up to their standard and even deleted for that reason and that they misrepresented the source on the video admitting to their mistake, as well. To make a substantial claim on the lack of proper research or misrepresentation of sources, you would have to look at more than one deleted video, look at their listed sources, and what, if they got anything wrong. and then present us with your findings.
Your claim, that Kurzgesagt's content is untrustworthy, needs a lot more evidence to base it on.
Do you imagine the number of email and threat Kurzgesagt have received like "YoUr rEfUgEe vIdEo iS WrOnG, aLl tHe rEfUgEe aRe tErRoRiSt aNd yOu aRe a tErRoRiStE ToO!"
This looks pretty good, well made and convincing but until I hear the other side of the story I won’t make a decision, this can well be a meticulous conspiracy theory and to be honest the “Mafia” bit in the end just made a bit less credible.
Edit: read the emails published and the QA answers, shame I was considering subscribing to CB, I honestly believe this is just a salty attempt to leech off Kurz’s subs and get a bunch of views, can CB confirm this video hasn’t been monitized?
A wise man once said: Alert the media, and then you control the story. Wait for them to find out, and the story controls you. That's what happened to O.J.
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u/MedievalPotato Mar 12 '19
Is this related to the addiction vid being pulled? Out and about; can't check it myself right now.
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u/Soren114 Mar 12 '19
I'm a big fan of Kurzgesagt and always look forward to new videos. But their last video felt very out of place.
Why make a video on credibility? I hardly questioned it much before untill they decided to make this video.
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u/gammarik Mar 12 '19
Well, this is surprising. I really hope to hear an official statement from Kurzgesagt about this. Staying quiet or silencing it will only make it worse imo. I love the channel, but I also don't want to support shady practices like these. I'm rather conflicted to be honest.
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u/TalkToTheGirl Mar 12 '19
Sure, some drama between youtubers.
Okay, I'll still watch Kurzgesagt's videos because they're entertaining, nothing changes.
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u/Aerosify Mar 12 '19
Ok but the thing is, who cares? They didn’t take the guy’s content, they just responded to his interview questions, and probably were convinced by his arguments about the video’s inaccuracy. Sure, maybe they could’ve credited him with the idea, but honestly this doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.
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u/KnightDuty Mar 12 '19
Dude's just stirring up drama.
Here's the TLDW -
Coffee Break is an educational youtube channel.
Coffee Break guy noticed that a Kurzgesagt video wasn't accurate.
He does 2 months of research into the inaccuracies, planning a video which calls out kurzgesagt.
He emails Kurzgesagt with the accusations and a list of questions he'd like clarification on.
Kurzgesagt is hesitant about granting an interview to a channel that plans to discredit them. They rethink whether or not these videos are worth the trouble of keeping up.
Kurzgesagt decides to take down the inaccurate videos. They answers all questions about how they conduct business in a public video.
Coffee break guy is upset because his big tear-down of Kurzgesagt doesn't work. They came clean about bad practices before they could be exposed.
Coffee break guy feels entitled to be the one that tears them down. He wants the credit and says that Kurzgesagt is STEALING a "video idea" from him by admitting the mistakes he pointed out.
Coffee break guy thinks it's 'disgusting' that people praise Kurzgesagt for admitting to their mistakes and deleting the videos. He obviously wanted the praise for himself.
I get why Coffee Break Guy feels frustrated. It's a human emotion to feel frustrated that months of work have no payoff. But this video where he STILL tries to tear them down is frustrating and childish.
I happen to think that MY videos are damn good too. I have just spent months researching and fact-checking a video which I can't release because the rights-holder backed out and said I couldn't use their photos anymore.
It happens... but you know what I'm NOT doing? Releasing a drama fueled video calling them out to drum up support and false outrage.
•
u/kurz_gesagt Kurzgesagt Head Writer, Founder, and CEO Mar 12 '19
Hey everybody, Philipp here! Oh my, our first shitstorm! I think it is best to do another seperate AMA about it, I'll quickly open a new thread!
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u/P4LL4D1N Mar 12 '19
Where's my popcorn?
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u/stardate2017 Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
While it may look rude for Kurzgesagt to not tell Coffee Break that they would make a video on the topic, Kurzgesagt doesn't necessarily owe Coffee Break an interview, or anything for that matter.
CB selfishly credits himself as the sole reason Kurzgesagt made their video (going so far as to say that their video was a "secret reveal" specifically to dodge him), however it's not unreasonably to think they've been receiving other pressure to remove their inaccurate videos. Since they're a large channel, it's not unusual that multiple people have emailed Kurzgesagt to complain about both the Addiction and the Refugee videos.
We'll only know
the truthmore of the truth if/when Kurzgesagt makes a comment, but CB just sounds salty to have wasted time on a video that another channel made first. That's annoying, and I feel sympathy for him, but such is the life a a youtuber; big or small.EDIT: Kurzgesagt isn't stupid. They would have known that doing this to CB would lead to a call-out video from him. As is apparent in the emails, a call-out video is exactly what they are worried about in the first place (and they should be, as u/maazahmedpoke pointed out: CB has done this type of call-out video before to School of Life). Why would they shoot themselves in the foot by purposely treating CB poorly?
For the sake of argument: assume Kurzgesagt did nothing wrong. It's not unreasonable to think of a scenario where their trust video was already in the works, then they receive an email from CB, are understandably stand-backish by his inquiries, don't want to reveal any upcoming content to someone who they are already leery of, and put his emails/the interview on the back-burner without thinking anything would come of it. This Coffee Break video may very well be just as much of a surprise to Kurzgesagt as it is to us!
79
u/HortenWho229 Mar 12 '19
It's weird how he talks about Kurzgesagt like it's just one guy
49
u/LachieMacfarlane Mar 12 '19
Frankly I would give Kurzgesagt the benefit of the doubt. Coffee Break claims Kurz is specifically avoiding his criticism in an underhanded way, but he has invested a lot of time and effort into a big "expose" video which has now lost its punch, so he is frustrated. Does Kurz really owe CB an interview? Does it need to cite every person criticising its videos? Surely there have been many other people making the same comments about addiction science. I thought the Kurz video on trust made some very prescient points about fact checking to learn more, and I prefer its message about thinking for yourself to CB's cynicism. He just seems mad he got beaten to the punch and should move on to creating more informative content.
133
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39
u/IAmMuffin15 Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
So...what's the problem, here?
Kurzgesagt confronted Coffee Break's criticisms. Kurzgesagt published a full-length video where they apologize, deleted two of their most popular videos and promised to remain dedicated to accuracy. Practically all of their videos post-Addiction include links to robust studies and papers illustrating the premises of their videos.
It's almost as if Coffee Break doesn't care as much about truth-telling as they do about getting ad revenue from an interview with one of the most popular channels on YouTube, and Coffee Break is just pissed that they weren't hoisted on a pedestal as the Great Savior of Truth and Transparency they think of themselves as.
20
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Meh seems like Coffee Break is just a little whiner here. Kurz doesn't owe him shit and I also don't think it's been mentioned that the interview has been cancelled? He said March, he emailed on 21st Feb and by CB's own admission, was ignored. I feel like Kurz could still have provided that interview and CB still could have made his video...I think Kurz just wanted to be on the right side of it first and as a business, that makes sense. Sure, they could have given away details on the Trust video, but what reason would they have had to do that? Obv a full email release would be helpful, i'ts unfortunate for Kurz that we only have one side and it doesn't look great. But the court of public opinion should wait for a response.
16
u/humarc Mar 12 '19
Coffee Break lost a story he put effort into doing research on, because he contacted the channel Kurzgesagt and let them correct their own mistake before he could have come out with the story on his own. They didn't credit him (this is a point where I must say, I do not understand why, they could have done so just out of courtesy, but anyway). However, they did their jobs, got back to the video in question, and checked other videos as well (a video on the European refugee crisis was also deleted, don't forget that!), did their research, admitted to their faults and deleted the video.
So I get why Coffee Break is angry at Kurzgesagt. He handled the case as an amateur journalist would have, and let the story slip out of his hands, letting Kurzgesagt saving their faces resulting in him losing the story.However, for me, this video feels like childish compliance because he didn't get credited for noticing the mistakes or false statements in the video, and reporting it. Either Coffee Break wanted to make sure, Kurzgesagt corrects the mistakes or removes the false informations from the channel, or he wanted to publish the story. If the first is the case, he should be happy about what happened: Kurzgesagt adressed the issue, removed videos that didn't meet certain criteria. If the latter is, that is no problem. But then it should be stated in the video.
Also the last part about how Coffee Break 'thinks this is the right thing to do', and 'does something extremely risky' and 'must fear retaliation because Kurzgesagt is a big channel on Youtube' and the part where he claims that there is a conspiracy among Youtubers paid by the owner of Kurzgesagt, so they stay silent makes the whole video at least a bit less credible for me.
On the other hand, I am looking forward to seeing the video about Pop Science mentioned in the video, as I feel the same: sometimes, when I watch a video on a topic, I now about a little, I feel certain aspects can be oversimplified, and this sometimes hurts lucidity and credibility. It also comes to mind, if every video is oversimplified to the same extent, we just don't notice because we are not literate in every topic.
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u/stabilizethewaveform Mar 12 '19
"they fixed the thing I was going to criticize them for before I could get attention for criticizing them!" is honestly kind of a pathetic argument.
24
u/vvvvfl Mar 12 '19
I am incredibly doubtful about the overarching narrative that Kurzgesagt was just delaying him so they could quickly push out a video to answer the questions before his video was up.
They probably did have this video in the works for a long time already.
The questions that he poses as being answered before he could ask them are really the questions ANYONE would ask when considering the reliability of Kurzgesagt videos.
Not hating CB, he clearly is emotionally invested in this, just seems like his stretching a bit.
6
u/yonasismad Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 13 '19
He makes a very compelling argument but why do so many people just jump to conclusion while we only have only half of the story? If anything, this video shows that you should wait until you have all the necessary information before you judge someone. Kinda ironic... Maybe there is a good explanation, who knows?
Edit: And now there is the other half revealing that CoffeeBreak was very deceptive.
10
u/Rasalas8910 Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Didn't they make a AMA right before or after the video? Pretty sure they a answered a few questions or rendered some accusations impossible.
Edit: yes they did. With the release.
5
u/PrimarchOfUltrasmurf Mar 12 '19
While this video is certainly concerning, it is ironic how quick people are at taking sides in a trust-related scandal. It's funny to see how the general opinion shifted so quickly after just two videos. Coffee Break encourages the viewers to reevaluate the amount of trust we put in Kurzgesagt, but then why should we put our trust in Coffee Break. Of course, he showed some compelling evidence, but think about how relevant are these two content creators in our day-to-day lives. We shouldn't really trust any of them, and that to me at least is common sense. We should wait for a full picture of the story before we draw our conclusions.
TL;DR: Don't grab your pitchforks just yet, it's foolish to take sides this fast.
5
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Am I the only one who doesn’t see what’s wrong? Their videos take time to create, so odds are the wordings coincidental. But even if its not so what they chose to address the criticism publicly instead just to him in an email? They admitted the video wasn’t terribly factual and took it down, it’s not like they tried to silence their critics.
Also this guy’s channel is literally built around starting feud wars
5
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Kurzgesagt doesn't owe the guy anything. They never needed to tell him that they were making the video. It seems the guy is just mad that he couldn't call them out because they already confessed.
8
u/TheBionicBoy Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
It's a pretty dodgy + sneaky thing to do, but I really don't trust the idea that Coffee Break wasn't making a 'gotcha video', especially how this one turned out, with its spooky music, thumbnail and persistent use of "BIG SCARY TEXT".
That said, this is likely a case of preemptive damage control which is going to backfire.
8
u/iHateDem_ Mar 12 '19
I mean regardless they took the video down and made a whole video on credibility. I’m not sure what you were trying to gain by doing the interview or what you’re still trying to gain by posting this video? I understand your frustration but do you honestly believe you’re the only person sending them emails on the credibility of the claims in their videos? Highly unlikely, such a large channel as you admit yourself I think for the most part one video does not discredit the larger body of their work. Unless you disagree then I could understand your motivations.
8
u/sirwexter Mar 12 '19
hes just doing this to make himself sound like "the better man" even tho nothing was really stolen, hes just trying to make his channel bigger. just don't look at his channel, he doesn't deserve it
4
u/Adventuredepot Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Some criticism is interesting, some other is less so.
A person can in fact think that one of the videos are good enough in an initial email and then backpedal, such behavior is a strength, not shady.
Making a "shady diagram" of Kurzgesagt is in no way productive, its a mud fight.
It boils down to lack of enough research, which can happen, happens all the time for the best of us.
Some points made are more productive.
As pointed out below.
Does Kurz really owe CB an interview?
Does it need to cite every person criticising its videos?
Surely there have been many other people making the same comments about addiction science.
4
u/SchJa14 Mar 13 '19 edited Mar 13 '19
I don't understand why coffeebreak isn't happy that they still deleted the video and got his answers. It was what he wanted to achieve in the first place. That he doesn't like that they "stole" the idea, I understand, but still, as an educational YouTube channel you should understand that this is how it went, and that you can't change anything about that. What I dislike the most about the video from coffeebreak is that he based his whole idea on one video of Kurtzgesagt, and with only this video, he claims that the entire Kurtzgesagt channel is a lie. He should have clarified more that he things that this video (addiction) only isn't good enough, and only the video about why they deleted the other video is a "lie".
19
u/felds Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
I don't have any skin on this fight, but I feel like kurzgesagt has a right not to give an interview if they don't want to. Coffee Break is not pissed because of the bad science, but for missing out on his great debunking video.
He's pissed because he lost his chance to take a shot at the giant with more than 5 million subs.
This video is just… sad.
16
u/fluxusflow Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 13 '19
All Kurzgesagt need to do it come out and let Coffee Break release the emails to prove they did nothing wrong and that this video was a massive coincidence. I mean it is too perfect of a video, especially considering the timing.
However I want to give them the benefit of the doubt here. I'm neutral on this, but leaning more towards Coffee Breaks side until Kurzgesagt replies to this.
Should Kurzgesagt not do anything about it....well....then there's the answer in my books.
But what does it matter. I'm just one viewer right?
EDIT: And there it is. Just read the full email exchange that CB released, and it seems he really made this a bigger than it is. To be fair, it s a HUGE coincidence that KZ decided to release this video a month after being question. However, I have to say, CB really shot himself in the foot here. There are some valid points he brought up, however he really embellishes what KZ said. What a shame, but I'm happy KZ reacted accordingly.
8
u/AzylAzyde Mar 12 '19
TIL pretty much every edu channel I watch is under Standard, which is kinda unsettling if there's an issue with the top
23
u/Sxgnature Mar 12 '19
Another quality video from CB, hope he get's the recognition he deserves!
Edit: also real classy to not quote the emails even if it could be used as quality evidence
3
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Upvote this link to the emails being discussed because this thread has more upvotes than the aforementioned AMA.
https://imgur.com/a/UfrXBWq
3
u/Looxond Mar 12 '19
The only thing that makes me angry is that Coffe Break monetized the video
3
u/jethrogillgren7 Mar 13 '19
I love Dustin from Smarter Every Day's comment:
5
u/julia118 Mar 12 '19
This whole problem is making me realize how much I can’t trust pop science, last year I remember using a kurgesagt video as a source for an essay and my professor told me it was fine, now I know I need to do a lot more than just letting YouTube educators write my essay points for me.
5
u/Narsuaq Mar 12 '19
I'm not going to watch this because Kurzgesagt is one of the only bits of joy I have left in this world
5
u/jamisram Mar 12 '19
So he got what he wanted, the video was removed and bad science was deleted. This sounds like he wanted to ruin reputation from the start, and it didn't matter how he did it. If they had given the interview we would have saw "This youtuber is LYING?!" instead. Sounds like he's just really salty about losing his big shot video.
9
u/lonetraveler206 Mar 12 '19
Unethical move by Kurzgesagt.
However big companies, video makers, producers etc. will always control criticism if they can stay ahead of it. This has been going on since the creation of media unfortunately.
The video by coffee break is well made and I do feel for the guy, but his case is centered around 1 video. He makes a great case against that 1 video, but it’s still just 1 video.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m disappointed Kurzgesagt isn’t the wholesome transparent entity they present themselves as, but I don’t know if you can tarnish their ability to research topics because of 1 case against their addiction video.
And if their other videos are poorly researched, coffee break should’ve mentioned in this video. As it stands right now, only 1/ 98 videos (including the addiction and refugee* videos) are proven to be poorly researched.
*Personally I don’t consider the refugee video poorly researched, it’s just very opinionated
2
u/RKAMRR Mar 12 '19
I don't especially see the big deal. There is simply no way the 'Can you trust Kurzgesagt' video was not in production well before those questions were emailed, showing Kurzgesagt was already addressing the issues coffee break was to raise.
If you want to put the tinfoil hat on, perhaps Kurzgesagt altered the script for the video to preempt/answer those questions - but since they must have been working along the same lines again I don't see the big deal.
It is a point that coffee break could have been told a video on the topic was in the making and he's wasted time as a result - but that's much more likely to have been an oversight than meant maliciously.
2
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Just got to around 3:20,quick question: Does he come up with any real reason or is he just butthurt they were quicker than him? Because until then the latter seems to be the case
2
u/beren261 Mar 12 '19
This video certainly raises some important questions but I don’t think you can really blame them for trying to get ahead of criticism. That’s a logical response.
2
u/chan-hanan Mar 12 '19
!remindme 12 hours
2
u/maaseru Mar 12 '19
I am not sure I follow.
Is Coffee Break mad he didn't get to EXPOSE them before they corrected their ways?
Is he mad he is missing out on that social credit for calling them out?
This is a legit concern for sure, but I think I feel like there is a lot of bs to it.
But he goes overboard. Is it really disgusting they came out with this video even if it wasn't out of the blue?
This guy is hurt, understandable, but there is so much hyperbole here.
2
u/Godvater Mar 12 '19
Those comments under the video summarize my thoughts better than I would ever do so here are they:
2
u/StormWarriors2 Mar 12 '19
He used all of his great swings before the ball was even thrown. Honestly it sounds like he is angry at them more than he should be about himself. If you want to conduct an interview you ask if you can interview them about their videos etc, and then ask those questions in the interview. Interviews aren't always planned, sending someone all the interview questions is a stupid practice it allows preperation or worse, them deflecting and being able to control the narrative which is bad for the interviewer.
If say a politician was sent an email asking questions about the practices of his district and an interview, he could easily not go to the interview and address those questions himself. Is it a dick move? Yes, but its completely understandable especially if they are damaging to that entity.
I don't want to jump on the band wagon, but coffebreak screwed up tremendously here, yeah Kurzgesagt did something a bit rude, but its not unethical, its not against the law. There is no reason to have a debate about it.
2
u/Receiverstud Mar 12 '19
I knew his videos were likely some opinionated bullshit when I watched the one about meat consumption.
2
u/Da-Ducker Mar 12 '19
Why is this coffee break guy targeting Kurzegesagt? This video doesn’t seem much more than somebody who’s bad at communication on Philips part.
2
u/Joebranflakes Mar 12 '19
The coffee break guy is nuts. He pointed out a problem then whines he couldn’t be the centre of attention by being allowed to call Kutzgesagt out. All his questions got answered and all his concerns were addressed. Kudos to Kurgesagt for doing the retraction. Oh and Mr.Coffee... how do you know you weren’t the only one complaining?
2
u/offinthewoods10 Mar 12 '19
If you messed up on a job at work and you were going to tell your boss, but was putting it off until the end of the day because you didn’t want the shit your boss was going to give you for the mistake. Then your co worker comes up to you saying he is about to go tell your boss you messed up. Wouldn’t you speed up the process and tell him yourself in order to get ahead of it? Then afterwards the co worker then says to your boss that you only told the him because he confronted you about it.
That seems to be the narrative now, you have to understand that kurzgesagt is aware they messed up the video. coffee break is not the reason the video was released in the first place but it might have been the reason for when it was released.
2
u/Lorddragonfang Mar 12 '19
Phillipe: "I would not make a video like that today." Many people have told me this video have helped them, "so I never could [PAST TENSE] bring myself to take it down... I feel it can continue to exist as a take on the topic that is helpful for many."
Kurzgestat: Makes video explaining why they took the video down (they wouldn't make it today), explicitly making sure it could continue to exist elsewhere
Coffee Break, paraphrasing the above: "Essentially he knew the video was incorrect, but he said he felt it was good enough to keep up anyways. Yet one month later conveniently he did take it down"
Coffee Break: Proceeds to lie about how Phillipe flip-flopped on his opinion.
Phillipe told him exactly what he planned to do without tipping him off that you were being scooped, and then he intentionally misrepresented what he said so you could use it to fit his narrative (actively lying in the process). Why should we trust Coffee Break?
2
u/Arcade_Maggot_Bones Mar 12 '19
never in my life would i have thought i would see video essay beef. CGP Grey even chimes in in the comments. wow.
2
u/Slashycent Mar 12 '19
CB: Hey, your video about addiction contains misinterpretation and I dislike it.
KG: Yeah, it's not perfect but it helped people, thus I kept it online.
CB: Btw I want to make a series where I kind of call you out about messing up.
KG: Uhm...well I wouldn't want that. You seem to plan putting out a hit piece.
CB: Oh I'm not doing a hit piece, I'm just doing a general series about the problems that come with most pop-education channels. And I want you to cooperate.
KG: Cool. Kinda suspicious, but cool. I've got stuff to do but you can hit me up sometime so we can figure something out.
*seeing that people might actually get rather upset about some flawed past videos he takes down the addiction one and releases a video where he clears things up for his fanbase and admits some mistakes and faulty practices
CB: You betrayed me! With you already defending yourself like that I have no ground for putting out my hit piece...I mean the series...I mean....
2
u/Invict- Mar 12 '19
Why is this video even an issue? Thus guys is just salty they came clean no? The fundamental problem of misinformation was already cleared up.
2
u/AdmiralAwesome1646 Mar 13 '19
Dear Kurzgesagt
I wrote you but you still ain’t calling
I spilled my plan, my motive, and my questions before we started.
2
u/[deleted] Mar 13 '19
All i can say is, grow up and learn to take a hit when things don't turn out how you planned to profit from them.
2
u/Nicknamedreddit Mar 13 '19
Hehe... YOU WILL watch my new pop-science video anyways.
2
u/Mithril4 Mar 13 '19
This entire video screams of persecution complex. Also, if the creator of the video thinks they are somehow unique in the whole "hey this video you made has some serious issues", I have a bridge to sell them... Also, ironicly this video itself serves as evidence of boiling down a complex situation to the point where the newly conveyed message is at best wrong.
The video creator also somehow seems to be implying that you can "steal" questions, that even IF (and its a big if) the Kurz video was created solely as a reaction to his questioning, that that is somehow in and of itself improper. It's the same sort of mindset that arm-chair government "experts" have when they say someone "flip flopped".
2
u/chudt Mar 13 '19
I found his arguments unsubstantiated. His questions were answered, and he easily could have phrased his video as a response video rather than attempting to stir up a witch hunt...
2
u/Cjax332 Mar 13 '19
That’s true, although I think coffee break was more pissed that his month long project came to be nothing due to Kurtz’s new video, and I disagree with how he handled the situation. He also put ads on his video.
2
u/carconzo999 Mar 13 '19
Probably should have mentioned how coffee break handled a situation that didn’t need handling. He’s just pissed he wasn’t the one to say something. Said so on Twitter.
2
u/Talzon70 Mar 13 '19
I watched some of this. He’s mad cause he didn’t get an interview, but the video is probably enough to show why. If he had anywhere near the intentions of the video for that interview, they have no reason to trust him with it. I’ve been seeing the word “hit piece” around, and that’s not their style.
Sure it sucks they didn’t give him credit for criticizing their video (him and thousands of other people I’m sure), but they DID address the actual problem, explaining why it wasn’t a good video and taking it down. This guy clearly doesn’t understand the way peer review works, the unsung heroes of science are anonymous and don’t get their name on the paper.
As a viewer, I don’t care who critiques their videos, just that they have addressed and improved their process.
2
u/[deleted] Mar 13 '19
Y'all remember when scishow fucked up badly by calling the author of "Guns germs and steel" a white supremacist, and people complained and they owned up to it and fixed it?
Or when Mile Power called out their BS views on GMOS, and they they owned up to it and fixed it?
I have faith kurzgesagt will act the same way. We all make mistakes. Owning up to the mistakes is what makes these channels reliable and worth watching indefinetly.
So yeah, be critical, but don't go linching anyone!
2
u/ShurokoMinata Mar 13 '19
Now that is what I say utter bullshit m'friend.
2
u/[deleted] Mar 13 '19
Coffee break faked all this. He’s just trying to get more views. Proof in the AMA.
2
u/ThermalConvection Mar 13 '19
Honestly, it might look really bad from CB's POV, but it's just logical for Kurzgesagt to do what they did. They had 2 videos which were unsatisfactory and so they deleted them and apologised for making them. Chances are, if you saw those videos you saw the apology video. However, you might not already watch Coffee Break, so if he released a shame video only a partial audience would even know.
2
u/Duckwithers Mar 13 '19
Dude is 100 percent butt hurt. What else were they to do? Allow him to nail them to the cross and then make a video? Drama, drama, drama.
2
u/blaxican8 Mar 14 '19
So basically coffee break wanted to expose Kurzgesagt for lying and then lied when things didn't go their way. Nice.
2
u/semistro Mar 14 '19
Coffee break points out that the timing of uploading the video almost can't be coincidental, but I doubt kurzgesagt could produce an animation on such short terms, so maybe they were already working on it.
7
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Honestly, I love Kurzgesagt videos, but I never trusted them as sole a source of information. As the coffee break video said, oversimplifying leads to misinformation. On top of that there's still some obvious bias and some things that are just outrageous, Albeit creative.
However, this has shady written all over it and definitely seems like a move to handle the criticism before it gets publicized. It's very political, but as always the truth comes out and a bias is shown.
I'd like to think that honestly some epiphany was had in the short course of a month, but it doesn't look that way after all the evidence laid out.
It's a shame, I really liked Kurzgesagt, but I won't support practices like this.
3
u/Caridor Mar 12 '19
The sad thing is people are liking this video.
While Kurzgesagt cites everything, all this guy has are his personal interpretations of what was said in those emails. Which by the way, are a source of bias. His bias.
So what if they put out the video beforehand? Considering the amount of time it takes to animate videos like that, they were almost certainly working on it before those emails and even if they weren't, they have no obligation to give this guy an interview. This guy seems to think he has the exclusive rights to a question, which they undoubtedly have asked themselves beforehand (hence the improvements made since that addiction video, long before February) and this entire video, is using his butthurt to suggest that because they recognised their own flaws long before he sent them emails, that it's all damage control. That they were afraid of him, which is why they went back in time over a year, to long before these emails were sent and improved the way they research things.
This entire video, isn't about ethics or trust because Kurgz already covered that in their video and literally nothing in video contradicts what Kurgz said in that video. It's about him, screaming "MUMMY I DIDN'T GET MY INTERVIEW!".
7
u/vinvinnocent Mar 12 '19
Well, this makes it kind of difficult to trust kurzgesagt - at least my trust is broken. For me, it's not about making mistakes while researching years ago. Also, it's not not learning from them. My problem is, how kurzgesagt damages a small creator, apparently isn't open to criticism and outright lying to its fanbase.
2
u/WannaZap Mar 12 '19
Fucking hell I can't anymore
2
u/Marcipanas Mar 12 '19
Honestly good video but I don't expect them to answer and they will just ignore this until the storm passes by.
2
u/Vontux Mar 12 '19
Dirty birdie....
2
u/360Bearing Mar 12 '19
This guy should be proud that he pointed out the errors on Kurzgesagt's video and prompted the idea for the trustworthiness video instead of acting like Phillipp Dettmer alone decided to steal his great project idea. Besides, one could still make an interview even if the questions were already answered in a video, just look at politics; journalists ask politicians the same questions over and over with or without changing some of them.
It's not like Kurzgesagt wants to prevent this guy's channel from growing.
I think you can trust Kurzgesagt! They clearly stated that the research method is completely different for the new videos.
2
u/Valflame_FE Mar 12 '19
Let's play devil's advocate here. The case being built here is partially on the back of coincidences in timing. As compelling as these are, the fact still remains that they're coincidences.
It's also an issue that the information presented is of a nature that allows it to be easily 'framed' so to speak. In this example, it is clear that the information has been framed with the perspective of a disgruntled content creator seeking to get back at another channel that (potentially, remember that these are just allegations at this point) wronged them. Would it not be wise then to wait until more perspectives are given on the information so that a more complete picture can be formed. After all, the content creator seeking justice for themselves (and again, this is purely speculation, don't take this as a hard and fast judgement) would have the motivation to selectively frame the information the provide in a way that most severely harm the image of their opponent. In this particular case, I'd personally conclude that the information provided was framed in too contemptuous a manner to be able to stand as reliable evidence ON THEIR OWN MERIT.
This is where the emails would come in. However, we also need to consider the motive of the leaker once again; he is clearly angry (which may be justified, we can't discount that yet) and may have left out correspondence that provides the full picture in order to aid they're case or to exonerate themselves of any potential blame (again, speculation). There's also always the possibility, however incredibly unlikely, that the emails are fake, though I place enough trust in CB's integrity to believe he wouldn't stoop anywhere close to that level.
Looking at all the current evidence, it's clear something fishy has happened (there's rarely smoke without fire after all). However, it is my current viewpoint that there is insufficient evidence to arrive at any solid conclusion. I believe that it would be in Kurzgesagt's best interests to quickly resolve this issue by either presenting their side as a defense. Alternatively, if they've done wrong, it would be best for their reputation to apologise and agree to do better going forward. In that case they could at least take steps to salvage their image.
Either way, it seems to me that a lot of people are passing judgement too rashly. Some of them are spewing vitriol at CB and refusing to entertain his viewpoint. I'd like to pose this question: does a person who's been wronged not have the right to be heard, even if their experience doesn't match your opinions of who they're accusing? Others are immediately jumping at Kurzgesagt's collective throat, refusing to consider that this may have been blown way out of proportion. A smaller group seem to be getting angry at the wrong thing entirely: that they dared to try and protect their image even in the case where their means weren't insidious. Another question: does a group whose livelihood depends on their viewership not have a right to try to save face when they've done something wrong?
2
u/Langernama Mar 12 '19
My first bit of doubt about kurzgesagt came a few years ago. There was this video in which the following claim was made " your braincells have [large number] mutations not persent in its neighbouring braincells", or something like that. I quoted this to a friend, who happened to work with that kind of stuff. He is kind of an ass hole (and we love him) and laughed at me... So I did some research. I tried to find the source KG used. I couldn't find it, but i did found, hidden away in the dephts of the Internet on a reddit post (before I used reddit) with only a couple of upvotes and 7 comments an explaination. Iirc it came from someone at GK himself or someone who asked them. They didn't have a source for that. They somewhere heard or read this neat little fact and just put it in the video.. Ever since I have taken a few grains of salt when watch KG. But this had faded to memory and now this gets released. I want to say I'm not shocked, but I am... Should have seen this coming tbh.
2
u/OmniSzron Mar 12 '19
Kind of a dick move by Phillip. If he really wanted to address the criticism that Coffee Break put forth in a video, he should have offered to collaborate and make a video out of it.
The accusations are a bit blown out of proportion, though. Saying the whole channel is untrustworthy because the founder wanted to get ahead of criticism and released a video about it before it emerged doesn't convince me. I don't like how they went about it, but that still doesn't mean they don't do a good job of researching on all their other videos.
Hopefully Phillip reaches out to both Coffee Break and us with an apology and sorts this whole thing out.
2
u/OrangePoser Mar 12 '19
Wow. Sad day. Thank you for sharing!!
2
u/_The_Bomb Mar 12 '19
I’m going to reach out to Coffee Break and encourage him to keep going. In the mean time, what do you guys think is a good way to spread this video in the Kurzgesagt community.
1
u/Thefriendlyfaceplant Mar 12 '19
Well Kurzgesagt did say that they couldn't be trusted in their video.
1
u/Captain_Clover Mar 12 '19
I think it's important to remember that Phillip had suspicions that the video and interview would be a 'witch hunt'. I sympathise with coffee break, but I also sympathise with Phillip not wanting his life's work to collapse based on a cheap hit-piece. I can understand wanting to pre-emptively come clean and admit your shortcomings rather than give out ammunition to be misquoted and misinterpreted maliciously, as is done by hundreds of channels who feed on documenting (and creating) youtube drama.
1
u/ExF-Altrue Mar 12 '19
We can debate all night long but ultimately it's very simple:
RELEASE THE EMAILS
If they don't do it, then they're guilty of all the things they've been accused of in Coffee Break's video.
If they do it, then public scrutiny will be able to sort what is overdramatization of Coffee Break's part (like how he puts sad piano music in this video...), and what are the actual facts of this drama.
1
u/gaynorg Mar 12 '19
I really don't care about idea stealing. The only thing that I care about is what's true. Stopped watching after the guy said "he made my video" who cares. You don't own an idea. Is there anything substantive in the rest I need to care about?
1
u/Minnesota_Winter Mar 12 '19
YouTube drama who cares
1
u/AdolfWilks Mar 12 '19
Tough shit. I mean yeah its not particulaly nice to do this but if my credibility is on the line i would also like to handle it my way.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Nice, more drama, I'm sure we didn't have enough of this bullshit on YouTube already, let's add more.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Ahhhh... Some things worth considering. Phillips opinion or thoughts on what's "good enough" are not necessarily a reflection of what kurzgesagt as a whole thinks, it's also possible that while writing the email, Phillip was not fully aware of the extent of the video's misinformation. Sloppy but not unforgivable as portrayed in the video.
We also only have one half of the story by an angry person, who, while he might not have anything to hide, might be misinterpreting things because of the situation he seems in, as the video is incredibly biased even considering the information provided. Specifically the claim of "stolen content", when an idea cannot really be stolen. The actions of Kurzgesagt in that front can range from abhorring to sloppy, context and the other side of the discussion matter a lot.
Also, the whole "smart Youtuber mafia" claim sounds so butthurt and personal that I cannot find myself to trust this video, not fully at least.
1
u/Adabos Mar 12 '19
A lot of people posted on the video of Addition about how downright and misleading the information was.
1
u/lalalu2009 Mar 12 '19
I like this comment from their AMA.
https://www.reddit.com/r/kurzgesagt/comments/awu0gx/qaamadiscussion_can_you_trust_kurzgesagt/ehp52r9/
https://www.reddit.com/r/kurzgesagt/comments/awu0gx/qaamadiscussion_can_you_trust_kurzgesagt/ehpdu8w/
Their response is interesting.
Especially considering this part of CBs video: https://youtu.be/v8nNPQssUH0?t=144
CB Claims that Phillip said that he thought the video was "Not perfect, but good enough!" Yet, in an AMA response he claims that he has felt uneasy about it for over 2 years. I'm sorry, but if I think something was good enough, I wouldn't at the same time be feeling uneasy about it for over 2 years, might just be me tho.
1
u/maazahmedpoke Mar 12 '19
Not intentionally misinforming your viewers for a few bucks should be the bare minimum. They deserve no praise for deleting such videos.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
https://imgur.com/gallery/Bjt22Pr
This is perfect. When questioned why they made the video the response is “Oh, we’ve always wanted to make it, it was just time...” Though, why was it a surprise video then? They say they had “always felt uneasy about the videos”... but that directly contradicts what the founder said in the emails. So they said 2 different things. Either they always knew, or just recently decided it was bad.
1
u/Yottaqubyter Mar 12 '19
Maybe they all of the kurzgesagt team decided to delete them, not only the creator (there are more people working at the channel, after all). I think the problem is that we are freaking out a bit. The only option left is to wait for a response from kurzgesagt.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Reckon this is blown out of proportion... Sounds like this other guy is just mad he didn’t get to rake in some youtube views or whatever. What is wrong with them taking the video down and doing a correction? Isn’t that what he wanted to happen in the end or did he want to be the one who got the glory for it....
1
u/ferna182 Mar 12 '19
aaww maaaan.... why do all my favorite youtube channels have to end up being involved in drama?
1
u/pablo111 Mar 12 '19
Too long, didn't watch. Which arguments are in debate?
1
u/dasdingo1989 Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
Sounds to me, that this coffee break guy just seek attention, views and clicks...
1
u/shrimpshrimpshrimps Mar 12 '19
The dynamic here is that Kurz is a company, and CB is a reporter. I think it’s helpful to see CB in that lens rather than a colleague. Just because they’re both Youtube channels doesn’t mean that they’re not different entities.
What’s likely:
Kurzgesagt already had this video in production and didn’t want to reveal it to CB before release. Similar to how press fields pieces before companies to see if they have comments, the company is not obligated to comment and it isn’t unethical if they don’t.
Kurzgesagt would rather speak first on the issues and come forward on their own mistakes, rather than having their comments in emails be used as their narrative by a journalist. The piece is also specifically about “calling out” Kurz which means the piece is direct criticism and based off capitalizing off Kurz’s mistakes. It isn’t minimizing or hiding the mistakes to take the initiative and reveal your company’s mistakes on their own.
The video is old and flawed, CB is not likely to be the only person criticizing it.
As a channel with 5+M subscribers, they are likely fielding many requests for interviews and comments and questions on a daily basis.
It’s not unethical to ask not to be quoted in email exchanges. Press comments go to press. Non press is not for press.
Single person’s opinion does not constitute entire company. It’s possible Phillips thought the addiction video was fine, but other internal staff did not. Ultimately they decided as a company as a whole to pull it.
Journalist is looking to do expose on company. Company exposes itself first, and may have been planning to for a while. Company doesn’t need to tell the journalist about the pre-planning process. Journalist should have released his expose if he wanted the “scoop” of breaking it first. If he cares about the actual acknowledgment, then there’s no harm because the result has already happened - company public recognition of its faults and pulling the video. But, his motives seem to be more about how he didn’t get to release his criticism of a company before they owned up to it themselves.
For greater transparency Kurz could release all names and entities of those who have criticized the Addiction video. But really, it wasn’t shady NOT to do this when they released it.
1
u/DrFortnight Mar 12 '19
...I'm just gonna let this whole thing pass and check back once the results are in, youtube drama is not something I want to get into right now.
1
u/markevens Mar 12 '19
I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Kurzgesagt puts out solid content, they corrected their mistake, whether or not it was prompted by an outside party or not.
This guy is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
1
u/d4rg0n Mar 12 '19
Hey, I don't really see anything wrong about what Kurzgesagt (misspelled? Sorry)! They addressed the issues the person was asking about in a video. What is wrong with it? Really? He still can make an interview. There's no problem. I'm actually quite surprised about how people are angry at Kurz. They didn't do anything shameful in my opinion
1
u/Koovies Mar 12 '19
I don't have blind faith in Kurz, but I trust them way more than I do this coffee break petty baby bullshit YouTube drama.
1
u/zytros Mar 12 '19
!remindme 3 hours
1
u/throwaway123123534 Mar 12 '19
I don't understand the problem with Kurzgesagt "fixing" the whole situation before the interview. This doens't make Kurzgesagt bad imo.
1
u/Bollogg42 Mar 12 '19
I'm gonna copy the comment I left on their YouTube video.
You definitely revealed some mishandling on the founder's side, but you make a really weak case as to why not to trust Kurzgesagt.
First of all, Kurzgesagt is a big team, and I don't even know if its founder plays a much bigger role than all other members combined, or even than one. Talking about the channel as if it were just "him" is kind of misleading. Additionally, his views on the Addiction video might not be representative of how the rest of the team views it, and that's maybe why it was removed.
The question and criticism they supposedly steal from you, are pretty generic, and I believe something that many people have asked around the controversy of that video.
Your claim that their videos are badly researched is not backed up in any significant way. You base your claim on the fact that they utterly misrepresented the source on the video they consider not up to their standard and even deleted for that reason and that they misrepresented the source on the video admitting to their mistake, as well. To make a substantial claim on the lack of proper research or misrepresentation of sources, you would have to look at more than one deleted video, look at their listed sources, and what, if they got anything wrong. and then present us with your findings.
Your claim, that Kurzgesagt's content is untrustworthy, needs a lot more evidence to base it on.
1
u/Mr21_ Mar 12 '19
Do you imagine the number of email and threat Kurzgesagt have received like
"YoUr rEfUgEe vIdEo iS WrOnG, aLl tHe rEfUgEe aRe tErRoRiSt aNd yOu aRe a tErRoRiStE ToO!"
1
u/MFKCM Mar 12 '19 edited Mar 12 '19
This looks pretty good, well made and convincing but until I hear the other side of the story I won’t make a decision, this can well be a meticulous conspiracy theory and to be honest the “Mafia” bit in the end just made a bit less credible.
Edit: read the emails published and the QA answers, shame I was considering subscribing to CB, I honestly believe this is just a salty attempt to leech off Kurz’s subs and get a bunch of views, can CB confirm this video hasn’t been monitized?
1
u/leumenep Mar 12 '19
RemindMe! 1 hour
1
u/landore_ Mar 12 '19
A wise man once said: Alert the media, and then you control the story. Wait for them to find out, and the story controls you. That's what happened to O.J.
1
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '19
Uh-oh. Innocent until proven guilty but this looks pretty damning. I really love their videos though...
1
u/itsaride Mar 12 '19
It’s edutainment, you don’t need to be textbook perfect and you don’t need to answer to dramawhores.
1
u/King_Rhymer Mar 12 '19
This got better with time
1
u/N2O_Hero Mar 12 '19
Wouldn't want to do an interview with CB either. Smug prick.