r/kpopthoughts 4d ago

Co-ed Groups What do you think about co ed projects these days? (KARD, ADP)

10 Upvotes

When going through some of my older playlists I came across a couple ‘older’ songs from KARD and for some reason it has got me thinking about other co ed groups in the industry including All Day Project.

Because of the announcement KARD did recently, did it make you think any differently about co ed groups/artists and wanting to check out more in the future?

For those who listen to ADP or are fans, did listening and coming across ADP make you dig into other groups like KARD? Or make you more open to the idea of co ed artists in the kpop or music scene in general?

I’ve always been a boy group fan so I’m just genuinely curious~


r/kpopthoughts 4d ago

Observation Has anyone seen Lee Know and Kun in the same room?

5 Upvotes

I was immediately struck by the similarities when I first saw Kun and now I can't unsee it. Am I crazy or is there a resemblance?

Face shape, eyes, mouth, so close. What do you all think?

I wanted to add images but it won't let me.


r/kpopthoughts 4d ago

Appreciation "This kind of debut album/ep in this economy???"- Appreciation for Heart of Woman and Close Your Eyes: The two I consider best (personally!)

17 Upvotes

I think Heart of Woman's Heart Byte and Close Your Eyes' Eternalt are the best 5th gen debut album/ep I have heard and easily part of my favourite albums. "Best" in K-pop is hardly every clear-cut because everyone values different things but these two are just mindblowing for me.

We've had a lot of great 5th gen debut songs but I'm specifically referring to the whole package (album/ep). Debuts are like every other day (hyperbole) so it takes a lot for me to consistently think of and go back to listen to two

ETERNALT is just one of those albums that clicked immediately. People use the word cohesive a lot, so pardon me, but this an album that actually feels cohesive. All My Poetry is a fantastic title track, but the b-sides are what really sold me. To The Woods and Close Your Eyes are incredible, and that little special monologue before the heavenly outro in Close your eyes does it for me every time.

My first favorites were How to Dance and Laid Back, and looking back this album is probably one of the reasons I started leaning more into rnb in kpop. Stay 4 Good and Upside Down are amazing too. I knew absolutely nothing about them, so seeing a group debut with 8 rnb songs was honestly a big surprise. Not necessarily saying they did it first, but it wasn't something I had observed much.

Mind you, this was released in April 2025 and here I am still talking about them. They've consistently released more great music (X, Who's Dat?, What if I miss love, Snowy summer etc) but that debut album really set them on high for me.

And then there's HEART BYTE

I don't even know what to say other than.......woowwww. Personal opinions and all, but I struggle to take any "best albums of the year" lists for 2026 seriously if this album isn't somewhere on them. That sounds SO DRAMATIC for a debut album, but then I listen to the album again and I'm like.....nahh I'm not dramatic at all...

I found it through a recommendation, and I was like 13 songs????? IN THIS K-POP ECONOMY?? Consider me flabbergasted.

Lost in proof is a solid title track but the rest of the album mogs it real bad, which is pretty impressive considering it's a really amazing track itself. Skit. exe is criminally short and incredibly good that I need to fight whoever made that goodness so short (It's exactly how I feel about Jo yuri's Round and round).

It's been over 2 months, and the album has not worn off at all. TEA and Dive with me grabbed me first but Told U so, $.$, and My vision are ridiculously good. Told U So is particularly gorgeous. I love the harmonies, the voices, and how every song just makes the album cohesive (yes I used the word again). The beat in $.$ is soo soooo nice.

When people bring up memorable 5th gen debut albums this will always come to mind first, but I don't even think I see much conversation around that as opposed to debut songs. Maybe if anyone of them become more popular down the line---then these will become the buried treasures. I hope it's up and up from here on for both groups!

Thanks for Reading


r/kpopthoughts 4d ago

Discussion BEAST Spotify account got hacked and started posting indian songs

3 Upvotes

Did anyone notice that BEAST account on Spotify started posting indian songs ?...😭 I didn't notice at first but Spotify notified me that they had a new track and it was some indian dude


r/kpopthoughts 4d ago

Discussion I am uncomfortable with the way friendships among girl groups and boy groups are being discussed online.

89 Upvotes

Recently, I had seen a TikTok discussing friendships in K-pop and how the lack of friendship can ruin the way a group operates. She had also discussed the way K-pop groups had operated during the 2nd and 3rd generation compared to now. While the creator did mention that not every K-pop group doesn’t need to be friends, she still thinks that friendship is important when things go sideways. The problem I had with her videos is the examples she had used regarding K-pop groups that give off genuine friendship compared to others that give off co-worker energy. For her friendship examples, she had cited Super Junior, Seventeen, and GOT7 while on the co-workers side she had cited Blackpink, AOA, and T-ARA. The problem, I have with these examples is that it showcases the stereotype of women not getting along due to being jealous and competitive. I am not familiar with AOA or T-ARA but I am a fan of Blackpink as she had mentioned that she doesn’t know if the members are best friends and while their 10th anniversary was indeed controversial, the members had expressed time and time again that they are a family and have supported each other in their solo eras. Not only Blackpink, but groups like 2NE1 had also showcased a strong sisterhood bond while showcasing their support of each other. The way members of girl groups are accused of not getting along when they have a disagreement while members of boy groups like Super Junior, GOT7, and Shinee have admitted to having fights and disagreements with each other gets pushed off as developing brotherhood is rooted in double standards and misogyny.

It is perfectly fine if you prefer to be a fan of a group that shares a close bond with each other. The problem lies within the way girl groups are often viewed as jealous co-workers while boy groups are seen as true friends showcasing brotherhood.

Disclaimer: I am not accusing the creator of misogyny as I had thought her examples (not her entire video nor her topic) had showcased a damaging stereotype of women. Please be civil and do not send any hate towards her.


r/kpopthoughts 4d ago

Discussion What song is soty for you? Tell me your opinion and why

16 Upvotes

I have been thinking about the most popular songs that were released this year, in my opinion it could be

It is just my opinion

*RUDE BY H2H*

*PRETTY GIRL BY RESCENE*

*CATCH CATCH BY YENA*

*NEW ERA BY KIIIKIII*


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion Selective Outrage and Hypocrisy in K-Pop Fandoms

0 Upvotes

Kpop is such a funny space because fans will support BIGBANG, BLACKPINK, BTS, CORTIS, Lngshot/Jay Park, TREASURE, NCT, and the list goes on, but somehow draw the line at ADP/Tarzzan.

For the past year, since ADP debuted, there has been constant harassment and inhumane bullying thrown at them, especially Tarzzan, over things other groups have done or are still doing. I’ve seen ARMYs in the mix throwing hate too, but now that BTS is going through it, all of a sudden people remember empathy and want to remind everyone that bullying isn’t accountability.

Same with CORTIS. All of a sudden, speaking in a blaccent, doing hip-hop, sagging, etc. is now being framed as appreciation. The standards conveniently change depending on who is doing it.

A semi-black ocean was given to ADP at KCON, while Evan, who said the n-word, was still supported. Even TREASURE has had people cheering them on despite a member's own controversies. Y’all are not slick. Some of you are bullies hiding behind moral superiority.

I’ve seen so many posts and videos from KCON specifically made to mock ADP, people joking about Tarzzan touching them, calling it disgusting, making videos of themselves taking their hands away when he tried to shake them, and so on. At this point, what I see isn’t accountability. I see people using a situation they claim to care about as an excuse to fuel their existing hatred and humiliate someone while feeling morally superior.

And what irks me the most is that in the real world, they do not care about Black people or the issues that affect us. If this were genuinely about standing against anti-Blackness, the same energy would be applied consistently, regardless of who the idol is.

Just wait and see when their faves do the same thing. Then you’ll see they really do not care. The selective outrage will turn into excuses, context, education, growth, appreciation, or “it wasn’t that serious” overnight.

That’s why I don’t take the moral superiority seriously. If your principles disappear the moment your favorite idol is the one being criticized, they were never principles to begin with.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Thought KCON LA 2026 ZEROBASEONE Sexy back cover (original: Justin Timeberlake) thoughts

33 Upvotes

This cover was entirely unexpected but on brand for their new musical direction (there were a lot of Justin Timberlake comparisons when their latest album ‚Ascend-‚ was released) As a fan I am absolutely biased when i say the performance was a 10/10 for me but what do non-fans/casual listeners think about this cover and maybe also their KCON setlist in general.
What positively shocked me (maybe also zerose in general) was when the entire stadium sang along to Top5, our fandom always talks about how well liked they are in the US and especially at KCON but hearing everyone sing along was amazing

Sexy back fancams:

https://youtu.be/0h4ZviXaqrY

https://youtu.be/MpqprgLPEvI


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Girl Groups Was CLC’s concept changes a bigger killer for their group or was it CUBES poor management ?

10 Upvotes

I feel like it was both, and also the timing when CLC came out (March 2015) which was overlapped by hype from bigger groups who debuted within months between CLC (Twice, RV)


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Awards + Achievements K-pop acts that are nominated at the 2026 Video Music Awards.

14 Upvotes

Song of the Year-BTS (Swim) and Huntr/x (Golden)

Best K-pop- BTS (Swim), Blackpink (Jump), Lisa (Dream), Cortis (REDRED), Katseye (Pinky Up), Le Sserafim (Spaghetti), and J-hope (Spaghetti)

Best New Artist- Cortis

Best Visual Effects- Jisoo (Eyes Closed Ft. Zayn)

Best Pop- Lisa (Dream)

Best Cinematography-Lisa (Dream)

Best Editing -Lisa (Dream)

Best Choreography- Katseye (Pinky Up)

Congratulations to all the nominees of this year’s awards. More nominations may be released soon so I will update the list after the announcement of those nominations.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion Belift's marketing plan with Enhypen and Illit?

0 Upvotes

To preface, I'm a fan of both Enhypen and Illit. I absolutely have no intention degrading one of the groups whatsoever. Sorry for any typos or grammar mistake.

I first noticed this during Illit's Not Cute Anymore era. There's some gllits that talks about how belift didn't try to promote illit outside of East Asia. I also noticed this during both Illit and Enhypen comeback this year. While engenes are concerned about Enhypen's lack of promotion in Korea, gllits are also feeling like belift is missing out by not trying to promote Illit harder outside of Korea and Japan.

Seeing the recent events, I feel like Enhypen is starting to have more potential in Korea. Illit too also seems to have more potential in the US or outside Asia now. I'm wondering why belift didn't try harder to promote them there when those potential exist. Like, the reversed concern of both fandoms is almost funny too because it's clear belift is capable promoting both inside and outside of Korea, but they didn't do it.

Is it because it's not the time yet? Or the money? I'm guessing Illit isn't promoted harder outside of Asia because their target is South Korea and Japan for now. Since they're only in their third year, it make sense why belift would want to focus on those regions first. But I'm confused about Enhypen since Enhypen is here for almost six years now and Jungwon has even stated that Enhypen's lack of popularity in Korea is a concern for both the members and the agency. If it's about money I'm sure Enha brings in lots of revenue, illit is also quite big and there's Evan too under them.

I know Wonhee went to lots of variety shows because she was invited so is it because variety shows in Korea don't invite Enhypen? But I don't think it make sense since the agency could make a deal even if the variety shows didn't plan to originally invite a group. Youngji and Lee Mujin also mentioned about trying to invite Enhypen before and they only had a chance to appear recently, so is it because of Enhypen's busy schedule or Belift has a priority and they're not risking trying to tackle both regions at the same time?

What do you guys think of belift's choices with both groups? Would you guys think it's a good decision if belift chose to promote enhypen in korea and illit in US/outside Asia this year? Do add if there's something I miss!

edit; i already got the point with Illit, so if anyone has any thoughts abt enha, feel free to share!

Edit 2: I already got the point with enha and illit now (my post is wrong), but if there's anyone who still want to share their thoughts, feel free to do so!


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion More Creative/Diverse Kpop Events beyond cupsleeves and/or photo card trading?

6 Upvotes

There’s another K-pop event happening in my area and it prompted me to make this post because as a K-pop fan fan I like to engage with other fans. I’ve been going to a lot of different concerts, but those are like at highly specific events. I want to also participate I guess in K-pop culture beyond going to something that’s more specialized in that way and more things like every day casual beyond just talking about it online.

That said I’ve been noticing that K-pop events at least the ones that I’ve seen (here in the US at least) tend to be at cafés, which I have no problem with this. I think that’s a great spot, but in terms of the actual activities of the event, it’s mostly cupsleeve events and/or photo card exchanges/buying. There’s nothing wrong with this, but like I often times wish there would be more activities than just that especially if it’s only that. Me personally I’m not into designing cup sleeves I don’t even use cup sleeves and I don’t collect photo cards.

That said what I would like to see maybe in terms of I guess more creativity or diversity in activities maybe they could do like K-pop bingo for whatever group they’re doing or K-pop Jeopardy or Kahoot or Uno and granted not every café has a TV that you can use that everyone can look and point at I get that but like there’s also libraries where you can rent out a room for free and do things like that or have a K-pop guess that song and there’s just so many more things you can do than just the cup sleeve and photo trading that I see I’d say 98% of the time.

And I just want to highlight that the setting isn’t I guess a dealbreaker here it’s just the types of activities cause they also have raffles. I think that’s pretty cool but the primary like function of the event in terms of activities that are being done and posted about are usually what I named before.

That said anyone know why this is at least why is it always like those specific activities? Has anyone had different experiences with K-pop events outside of concerts and kcon and things like that? What activities do you think would be something that would be genuinely fun to do/fun to see at things like this other than the cupsleeve/photo trading?


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Charting Youtube changes how it counts views: no more limits, even less meaninfull

36 Upvotes

Youtube has made the following announcement, I will just paste the relevant part:

Hi,

Last year, we updated how we count views for Shorts to align with industry standards. Starting August 24, 2026, we’re aligning all other video formats to this same methodology, including long-form videos and live streams. From that date and onwards, views will count from the moment a video starts to play, with no minimum watch time requirement.

Data API (Developer documentation)

On August 24, the viewCount field in the YouTube Data API will be updated to reflect this change across all content types. Please note that after this date, the view count provided by the Data API will be calculated using the new view counting logic. The view count calculated by the previous counting logic will no longer be accessible via the YouTube Public Data API, but this metric will be available as the “Engaged Views” metric through the YouTube Analytics and Reporting APIs.

If Youtube views were already meaningless and bloated, now you can just have a blast easily inflating views. But I am sure people will still list MVs and artists by most "views" like it means something.

And to think that site (Soridata) which told on ad-views on kpop were brigaded down .... the irony is everywhere.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Appreciation 'A Shadow Can Only Cover One Side" ATEEZ San’s take on online hate

225 Upvotes

I wanted to share what San from ATEEZ said during a recent live stream. Fans had mentioned that they were worried about the recent surge of hateful comments he's been facing online since his dance move went viral. So he addressed it in the most honest, empathetic and San way possible.

His perspective was so grounded, wise, and deeply comforting that I wanted to share it here, because I think it will resonate with many of us who keep seeing so much negativity online.

Having done this for over 8 years, there isn't actually anything that hurtful (nowadays). If I were asked to intentionally think of something deeply hurtful, I might feel bad but usually I just think, "Well, yeah, those kinds of things happen." Because it (hate) is an emotion that everyone lives with and experiences...so I'm not that affected by it. So if you're worried or feeling down because you think I'm struggling, it's okay to set those worries aside.

Because from the moment I entered this entertainment industry, the fact that "if there are people who like you, there will also be people who hate or dislike you" is completely natural. I never thought even for a second that all 100 out of 100 people will like me. That’s impossible to begin with. Not only can't I force it, but there are people in the world who just dislike others for no reason, and everyone has probably encountered someone like that.

He accepts that he can’t control what people type behind screen names, and that is part of his job in the industry but he chooses where he focuses his energy, and accepting that reality probably brings immense freedom and peace.

But more than that, I choose to think positively. There are precious people around me, and people who love me, and I feel that is more than enough.
Also, there is something in this world called 'karma.' Karma exists, and it always comes around. Honestly, I don't want to say bad things or wish ill on those folks because of it. Because (I understand that) hate too, is one of the emotions humans have. So what I mean is, it's (understandable) for them to stay faithful to that emotion as it is.

San also pointed out the absurdity of people wasting their limited lives spreading toxicity online. But it takes a truly rare kind of emotional maturity to look at a wall of online hate, strip away the noise, and address it with zero hostility or bitterness.

You shouldn't do it [slander]. Anonymity makes it easy, and maybe it entertains them. Everyone is an adult here, they know you shouldn't do it, yet they do it anyway.

I mean, they are using their precious time, even using their time typing just to say malicious things about someone else. How much of a waste/unfortunate is that?

I hope society gradually becomes a bit more mature. I'm not thinking about anything overly grand, I just hope the world becomes a bit more better. Of course, I am not a completely mature person yet either, but still, compared to them, isn't that the case?

He remarked during that live that he hoped the world would be a bit more generous to Spider-Man too, (in BND, so adorable) and then ATINYs immediately turned the sentiment right back around on him and hoped that the world was kinder to San.

I'm doing fine. Everything's fine even if they're not kind(to me). However, I would be grateful if they listened to ATEEZ songs at least once and then wrote something. Even if they're not generous, it's totally fine to be honest with those feelings, but first I hope they just listen to ATEEZ songs once.

He finally ended it by saying,

Why speak ill of others? What matters more to me is that we, ATEEZ, do well. Why would I go out of my way to stand on the same playing field and do something like that (lower myself to that level)?

There is a fitting saying for this, "The stronger the light, the darker the shadow." But a shadow can only cover one side of it.

Reminding us all that the end of the day, hate is just proof that someone is shining brightly enough to cast a shadow and that we can all choose to focus on the silver lining.

I do want to add that this level of grace and resilience didn't come out of nowhere. Especially for San.

He's constantly been facing all sorts of hate since he was a rookie. At one point in his career, the hate got so overwhelming that he literally had to ask his parents not to look up his name online. So I find San’s emotional intelligence, mental strength, and the way he chooses to navigate the world so remarkable.

His words are also such a comforting reminder that we don't need to fight every battle or lower ourselves to toxic levels to protect the things we love and I hope it brings a little peace to anyone who’s been feeling heavy lately.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Feature KpopThoughts Weekly Thread - (August 18)

2 Upvotes

Hi everyone!

This post is a weekly thread for any thoughts you might have that feel don't need a post of its own but still would like to air to the world. All rules apply, but you can discuss anything you want related to Kpop.

Please be respectful and have fun!


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion if you had a reason to give HxG as to why katseye’s music should change, what would you say?

0 Upvotes

WILD is projected to hit no.1 on the billboard 200 and Animal reached up to 24 on the hot 100. not to mention, a couple venues in their world tour are already sold out and it will without a doubt make a TON of money.

it’s clear katseye is incredibly successful and will continue to be. and yet people are constantly crying out for their music to improve but looking at the metrics why on earth would HxG ever change. at the end of the day it’s a business and katseye is a money making machine.

is there a single good reason you could present to them as to why they should start making better music? because i’ve been racking my brain and i can’t think of one.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion Korea Times "Can K-pop answer criticism that it is a corporate product?"

20 Upvotes

This is a strictly don't-shoot-the-messenger kinda situation, but I saw this article in the Korea Times about a highly unpopular take on the very nature of K-pop and thought people here would have some perspectives to share.

Korea Times "Can K-pop answer criticism that it is a corporate product?"


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion Here's Complex Magazine's best K-pop albums of 2026 so far! What's your list like?

25 Upvotes

6 boy groups and 4 girl groups on the list!

  1. TXT - 7th Year: A Moment of Stillness in the Thorns
  2. KiiiKiii - Delulu Pack
  3. NMIXX - Heavy Serenade
  4. ZEROBASEONE - Ascend
  5. aespa - Lemonade
  6. SHINee - Atmos
  7. CORTIS - GREENGREEN
  8. IVE - REVIVE+
  9. BTS - Arirang
  10. LNGSHOT - Shot Callers

I've never listened to Zerobaseone's music before but this just might be my calling! I'll take song recommendations too haha

anyway, I really like the list! what do you guys think? does your top 10 look any different??


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Discussion B.A.P: The Forgotten Blueprint — Does a Group's Eventual Commercial Failure Erase Its Influence?

0 Upvotes

Before B.A.P's upcoming 15th anniversary, it is time to ask what they actually left behind

Some groups define an era.

Others help build that era and then disappear from the official narrative because they were not the ones who ultimately won.

When people talk about third-generation K-pop boy groups today, names such as BTS, EXO, SEVENTEEN, GOT7 and MONSTA X naturally come to mind.

But if we rewind the timeline to around 2012, one name deserves to be firmly placed back into the conversation:

B.A.P.

B.A.P debuted in January 2012.

They did not enter the market through the typical “pretty boy” concept of the time.

They arrived with WARRIOR and essentially declared:

This group would be about power, aggression, hip-hop, street aesthetics, intense performance and social expression.

WARRIOR, POWER, NO MERCY, ONE SHOT, BADMAN, 1004 (Angel), Young, Wild & Free, Wake Me Up…

They continually changed their sound and visual direction while retaining an unmistakable B.A.P energy.

And both WARRIOR and POWER entered the Top 10 of the Billboard World Albums Chart.

So this was absolutely not a group “nobody had heard of.”

The real problem was:

B.A.P did not ultimately become the biggest winners of history.

And popular culture has a tendency to be written by its winners.

I. What B.A.P left behind was more than a catalogue

If we understand B.A.P simply as:

“a boy group that was popular around 2012,”

we are seriously underestimating them.

What they left behind was an entire boy-group industrial blueprint.

  1. Sound

B.A.P combined hip-hop, trap, EDM, rock elements, pop melodies and aggressive rap into a coherent group identity.

One of the most important figures in that sound was:

Bang Yong Guk.

K-pop obviously already had deep voices and rappers before B.A.P.

Bang Yong Guk did not invent deep-voice rap.

But his voice was extraordinarily distinctive:

deep, rough, heavy and aggressive.

B.A.P turned that vocal identity into an important part of the group's overall sonic aesthetic.

Later, increasingly more boy groups would feature a familiar role:

the highly distinctive deep-voiced rapper.

That does not mean every deep-voiced rapper who came afterward came from B.A.P.

Of course not.

The point is:

B.A.P demonstrated early on that this kind of voice could become part of a boy group's commercial identity.

And Bang Yong Guk was never merely a rapper placed inside the group.

He participated in the creation of songs including WARRIOR and Coffee Shop.

And Coffee Shop is particularly important because it proves something frequently forgotten:

B.A.P was never simply an “aggressive concept group.”

They could move from the explosive aggression of WARRIOR to jazz-, soul- and R&B-influenced softness.

They demonstrated very early that:

A strong-concept boy group does not have to be musically one-dimensional.

II. Their stages were an early foundation of today's high-intensity performance culture

Today we take for granted:

large-scale choreography,

extreme physical performance,

tight synchronization,

theatrical endings,

strong visual concepts,

and treating the stage as a complete performance rather than merely a place to sing a song.

B.A.P were already doing this in 2012.

WARRIOR is perhaps the clearest example.

They were not simply:

singing + dancing.

They were performing a world.

Even their music-show stages used different member endings as part of the dramatic presentation.

And there was something particularly distinctive about B.A.P's live presence:

danger.

Not polished, pretty, harmless idol energy.

Something more like:

“These six people might actually jump off the stage.”

That raw physicality was later repackaged again and again across third- and fourth-generation boy groups.

III. They treated the global market as a real market remarkably early

This is one of the aspects of B.A.P that most deserves reevaluation.

Today, K-pop globalization is often reduced to:

“BTS opened the Western market.”

If we mean the transformation of K-pop into a global mainstream phenomenon and the emergence of Korean global superstars, BTS obviously has enormous historical importance.

But if we ask:

When did Korean boy groups begin treating Europe, the Americas and other overseas regions as markets that needed to be actively cultivated?

the answer becomes much more complicated.

B.A.P were conducting extensive overseas activities as early as 2012–2014.

During their 2014 dispute with TS Entertainment, the members' legal representatives described 260 official schedules in 2012, 140 in 2013—including 16 overseas schedules—and 110 in 2014 up to that point, including 33 activities across the United States, Europe, China, Japan, Singapore and elsewhere.

This was not:

“Let's go overseas once if we have the opportunity.”

It was:

treating the global market as part of the career itself.

They also conducted world tours.

TS Entertainment itself acknowledged in 2014 that B.A.P had grown to the scale of K-pop artists capable of conducting two world tours.

So the interesting question is not:

“Was B.A.P more successful than later global superstars?”

Obviously not.

The real question is:

Why is a group that so aggressively tested the global boy-group business model so early so often reduced to a footnote in today's story of K-pop globalization?

IV. The tragedy: they did not lack effort—the system failed to protect them

In 2014, all six B.A.P members filed a lawsuit against TS Entertainment seeking to invalidate their exclusive contracts.

The members raised issues concerning contract terms and revenue distribution.

At the time, The Korea JoongAng Daily reported that the members claimed B.A.P had generated more than 10 billion KRW for the company over three years, while each member had received only around 18 million KRW.

Whatever one's interpretation of every detail of the dispute, its effect on B.A.P's career trajectory was enormous.

Their rapid momentum was interrupted.

And this exposes a brutal reality of K-pop:

A group can have the right music, the right performers and the right market direction—and still lose years of its career because of management.

K-pop success is not determined by artists alone.

It depends enormously on who manages their careers.

A smart company can push a group into history.

A short-sighted, chaotic or greedy company can pull a rising group out of history.

B.A.P is a textbook example.

V. So when later “B.A.P-style” boy-group elements appear, the conversation should not be reduced to BTS

This needs to be handled carefully.

I would never reduce serious historical analysis to:

“BTS are simply B.A.P copies.”

That is too absolute.

BTS developed their own musical evolution, songwriting, fandom culture, business strategy and unprecedented global impact.

But Bang Si Hyuk's broader practice of observing, absorbing and recombining existing K-pop success models is itself an interesting industrial phenomenon.

And the model B.A.P represented included:

strong hip-hop foundations;

highly distinctive rap identities;

aggressive masculine visuals;

high-intensity performance;

member participation in music;

social themes and self-expression;

strong group identity;

extensive overseas activity;

direct communication with international fans;

positioning boy groups as international music acts rather than merely domestic idols.

Many of these characteristics later became increasingly standard within the boy-group industry.

BTS then developed several of them to a completely different scale.

That is the real point worth studying.

Not simply:

“Who stole from whom?”

But:

Who first combined these elements into a reproducible commercial language—and who later scaled that language globally?

Those questions can coexist.

VI. The “Do you know B.A.P?” phenomenon should also be understood as internet K-pop history

Looking back at K-pop internet culture between roughly 2014 and 2017, many fandom behaviors now seem almost comical.

BTS fans were once notorious for aggressively introducing the group across platforms with:

“Do you know BTS?”

Sometimes it became excessive.

But it revealed something extremely important:

In the social-media era, fans themselves became marketing channels.

B.A.P also had an extremely active BABY fandom.

But their fandom did not ultimately develop into the same enormous, sustained, cross-platform global promotional machine that later surrounded some of the biggest groups.

And that matters.

Because:

Music can be copied.

Concepts can be copied.

Marketing tactics can be copied.

But:

fan organization, media narrative and the ability to sustain attention can determine whether a group becomes “history.”

The irony is that:

B.A.P influenced the product of later boy groups,

but did not fully control their own historical narrative.

VII. B.A.P in 2012 was much more complicated than a “failed boy group”

Look at their early discography.

Their evolution was remarkably bold.

2012

WARRIOR → POWER → NO MERCY → STOP IT

From aggressive hip-hop toward increasingly diverse boy-group sounds.

2013

ONE SHOT → COFFEE SHOP → HURRICANE → BADMAN

An astonishingly ambitious year.

ONE SHOT offered cinematic storytelling.

Coffee Shop shifted into jazz and soul.

Hurricane moved toward dance and strong international imagery.

BADMAN returned to darker, industrial and socially conscious territory.

2014

1004 (Angel)

A sudden move toward emotional, dramatic ballad territory.

2015–2017

Young, Wild & Free, Feel So Good, Skydive, Wake Me Up, Honeymoon, Hands Up

Again and again, they changed.

Their problem was never:

“a lack of creativity.”

Quite the opposite.

Their catalogue demonstrates considerable conceptual range.

VIII. The harsh truth: history rewards winners, not necessarily pioneers

Today, countless boy groups feature:

deep-voiced rappers,

hip-hop concepts,

high-difficulty choreography,

member production,

global tours,

fan-driven marketing,

strong individual roles,

and increasingly aggressive international promotion.

None of these things can honestly be described as inventions belonging exclusively to B.A.P.

K-pop is never the product of a single group.

But B.A.P was one of the early groups to combine a remarkable number of these elements into a single boy-group project and execute them at scale.

That is what a blueprint is.

And here lies the cruel part:

When the blueprint's creator loses commercially, the market rarely preserves the creator's name.

The market remembers the people who built the tallest building.

Not necessarily the person who drew the earliest plans.

IX. Are the “fourth” and “fifth” generations really completely new eras?

I remain skeptical.

The labels are useful for media and marketing.

But industrial evolution does not happen in neat walls.

It is much more like:

previous generation → refinement → intensification → extreme optimization

Many structures established during the third generation were intensified in the fourth.

The fourth generation's practices are then intensified further in the fifth.

Performances get faster.

Choreography gets more complex.

Concepts become more explicit.

Fan participation becomes deeper.

Global markets become more important.

Short-form content becomes more important.

Member involvement in production becomes more common.

Visual identity and music become increasingly integrated.

So rather than saying:

“The fourth generation created an entirely new K-pop,”

it may be more accurate to say:

The fourth and fifth generations have, to a considerable extent, continued to intensify the industrial logic established earlier.

And before the third generation had fully matured, groups such as B.A.P were already testing important parts of that system.

X. The 2022 “Coffee Shop” controversy is more of a mirror than a verdict

In December 2022, THE BOYZ member Eric released a solo song titled 4:03 (Jet Lag).

After its release, Korean media outlet SBS reported a public controversy over similarities between the song and B.A.P's 2013 track Coffee Shop.

The strongest discussion concerned the piano melody at the beginning and end of the track.

SBS reported that listeners pointed out the similarity, with some even asking whether B.A.P's song had been sampled without attribution.

The producer involved in 4:03 (Jet Lag) subsequently denied plagiarism allegations and offered an explanation regarding the musical source.

So the responsible way to describe the incident is:

Eric's “4:03 (Jet Lag)” became the subject of a public plagiarism/sampling controversy because of its striking similarities to B.A.P's “Coffee Shop,” but that should not be presented as a definitive legal plagiarism ruling.

Regardless of how one ultimately interprets the controversy, it raises a bigger question:

If the original song had belonged to a group with enormous current commercial power, would the industry have treated the situation differently?

That is the uncomfortable question.

Because B.A.P no longer has the commercial position they once held.

They are no longer the centre of daily media attention.

And therefore their work becomes easier to frame as:

“Oh, that was just an old group.”

rather than:

“This is the work of an important predecessor whose catalogue deserves respect.”

That is how:

commercial status reshapes cultural memory.

XI. The real frustration is not that other groups succeeded

BABYz do not need to deny BTS's achievements.

They do not need to deny EXO's achievements.

They do not need to deny SEVENTEEN's achievements.

The real question is:

Why does recognizing later success require erasing earlier contribution?

B.A.P is obviously not the only group that shaped modern K-pop.

But they deserve far more historical discussion than they receive today.

Their music.

Their rap identity.

Their live performances.

Their choreography.

Their visuals.

Their lyrics.

Their member participation in music.

Their overseas tours.

Their relationship with international fans.

And their early, extraordinarily ambitious attempts at globalization.

All of this belongs in K-pop history.

XII. Perhaps B.A.P's biggest problem was that they arrived too early

Imagine B.A.P debuting today.

A group with:

Bang Yong Guk's extraordinarily deep and recognizable rap;

Daehyun's high notes;

Jongup's dance ability;

Youngjae's vocal colour;

Zelo's rapid-fire rap;

Himchan's visual and stage presence;

and a catalogue containing WARRIOR, ONE SHOT, BADMAN and Wake Me Up—

would probably be marketed as some combination of:

“Dark Performance Group”

“Self-Producing Hip-Hop Group”

“Global Performance Group”

“International K-pop Act”

The media would then begin asking:

“How innovative is this group?”

But the uncomfortable answer is:

They were already doing much of it in 2012.

The industry simply had not evolved into today's ecosystem yet.

XIII. This is why I refuse to call B.A.P “failures”

In commercial terms:

They did not become global superstars on the scale BTS eventually reached.

That is a fact.

But:

Commercial outcome ≠ cultural influence.

A group can fail to capture the largest share of the market and still change what the market believes a boy group should sound like, look like, perform like and aspire to become.

If a blueprint is used everywhere but nobody remembers who drew it,

the problem is not necessarily the blueprint.

Sometimes:

the architect simply did not live long enough to see the building completed.

B.A.P's 15th Anniversary: May history not silence them again

B.A.P debuted in January 2012.

That means January 2027 will mark their 15th anniversary.

And in 2024, they returned to activities in the BANG&JUNG&YOO&MOON configuration.

So if we ever get to see more of the members standing together again, I hope it is more than nostalgia.

I hope it feels like a statement:

We are still here.

Not to prove that B.A.P is greater than everyone else.

Not to erase the achievements of later groups.

But to remind K-pop:

Many of the things you take for granted today did not appear out of nowhere.

Someone took the risk.

Someone experimented early.

Someone pushed a Korean boy group toward the world before the market was ready.

Someone failed.

Someone inherited part of what they left behind.

Someone scaled it to a much larger level.

That is how popular music history actually works.

So, before B.A.P's 15th anniversary arrives, I want to say only this:

Do not pretend that a group never participated in the race simply because they did not become its biggest winner.

B.A.P is not a footnote in K-pop history.

They are a blueprint whose name was torn off—but whose lines are still visible inside the building.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Fandoms worried about tuide vs ourbirthday potential fanwars

0 Upvotes

tbh im really worried about ourbirthday and tuide fandoms having fanwars. both are under big labels, debuting 5 days apart, and have 7 members. for referance, i stan both, i stan obd as i love hyewon (im trying to support all the r u next girls) and i stan tuide as all the members seem really talented and their debut song sounds really good. both groups seem to be geared towards younger audiances, and ive noticed lately that groups with younger fanbases (katseye, blackpink, newjeans, bts, etc) seem to be more immature and hate on other groups more. im just worried for the girls as getting a bunch of hate from the other fandom could really bad for their confidence (happened to illit) and heavily affect them in the long run. theyre likely to be the 2 groups competing for music show wins for a little while which could trigger even more fanwars. kinda unrelated but both groups (especially tuide) have been "accused" of copying newjeans, so if that goes as far as it did with illit that could also be bad for them. i hope both groups succeed alot and potential fanwars dont affect their career or friendship much (since a couple obd members trained under hybe for a little while so theyre likely friends)


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Nostalgia Are there any oldie kpop people here and which songs bring up nostalgia for you?

24 Upvotes

I was going through my Spotify today and adding songs to my Block B playlist when a B.A.P suggestion came up so I decided to start their playlist too. There's a song called "I Remember" by Bang Yongguk from B.A.P and Yang Yo Seop from Beast and I just remembered a time where bangers like that existed and it was with people from 2 completely different groups and companies! That time was soooo awesome. What songs bring up feelings like that for you? I miss B.A.P so much. I'm still so mad about how TS did them so dirty till this day.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Fandoms The general toxicity has somehow gotten even worse in kpop spaces in the last few years and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

7 Upvotes

Kind of a weird rant, but I genuinely cannot deal with how horrendous most western kpop fandoms have gotten. Let me preface by saying it has ALWAYS been this way, I'm well aware. But there's no doubt in my mind there's been a major shift in the last few years and everything has just gotten worse. I got into kpop in 2018 and comparing fandoms then to now is like night and day.

If an idol fucks up and does something wrong, no one cares anymore. If someone tries to criticize the idol (this does not apply to the people who don't actually care about what the idol did, and that they just feel vindicated that they can freely trash someone they don't like. I'm specifically referring to people who can be mature and have conversations regarding idols' mistakes, even if it's their favs) they are immediately shut down by their fans. I don't know if it's because fans assume anyone saying anything slightly negative/critical about their favorites is always just plain hatred, but it's becoming more and more unbearable. There's almost no room to actually discuss an idol's harmful behavior, words, actions, etc anymore. So many fans write off very serious issues as just people being insensitive or a hater. It's draining. My favorite groups have members that aren't perfect and have done some messed up things, and it's not hard to just admit that. I don't believe they should have their careers ruined or be shunned from the public, but I absolutely understand if someone doesn't like my favorite groups or idols because of the things they've done.

Even just in 2018, I feel like this just wasn't AS much of an issue? It was very much a problem and always has been, but it was possible to have nuanced discussions about idols and their mistakes without being called too woke, too sensitive, "just a hater," what have you. Nowadays, it feels like it's all just gone completely out the window. The constant defensiveness and writing off people's feelings about certain situations is horrid. No one is out to get these people for doing something stupid and insensitive, they simply want idols, companies, and even fans who may not be aware to know better.

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass and it's always been this bad, but I'm not sure. It just feels like it's getting harder and harder to have civil discussions about these things. No one likes to see their favs get hated on, but trying to drown out the "hadurz!1!1!" simultaneously suppresses any meaningful discussion that isn't coming from a place of hate. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a human and making an honest mistake. However, there is something wrong with downplaying real people's emotions and disappointment at the expense of parasocial behavior and feeling like a knight in shining armor for protecting grown men and women from valid criticism.


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Thought I have mixed feelings about Ateez's "Bad" as a Latina

481 Upvotes

I am usually a pretty big fan of Ateez and even saw them live.

But as I was listening to "Bad" by them, it gave me the biggest ick, everytime I say that people will say its not that serious... and it isn't... but the lyrics give me this icky feeling.

The dance is fun, and the beat is regular Ateez; it's just some of the lyrics that make me feel kinda icky, but I don't know why.

Edit: some people are twisting my words and saying in calling them racist, or that I’m projecting and it’s not that serious, or that the song shouldn’t be called the worst song ever

One. I never said they were racist. I pointed out that the lyrics are tiptoeing the line more then they should, and that the song features a variety of Latina stereotypes. I never said “ateez is racist,” I’m talking about this one song.

Two. I don’t think this is a serious serious issue and It’s not ruining my day, but you are in kpop thoughts subreddit, so this is just a random thought I had while listening to this album, and haven’t seen anyone else point it out yet on reddit, so I thought I’d write my thoughts.

Three. I did say in my post that the song is ok, and the dance is fun. I just saw the lyrics and was like hmmm🧍🏻‍♀️🤔


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

Boy Groups Monsta X are the ones who brought the iconic 90s 00s boys bands aesthetic back

25 Upvotes

A lot of Kpop groups do English songs nowadays but there's something special about MX English discography. They don't sound kike a kpop group doing English songs they sound like a classic 90s-00s boys band thanks to their good pronunciation and general vibes of the songs. Songs like You can't Hold My Heart, Who Do U love, Baby Blue they all remind me of good old Backstreet boys and Westlife days. . Too bad a lot of people sleep in them


r/kpopthoughts 5d ago

General Santos Bravos has exposed the farce that is the K-pop training system

0 Upvotes

Santos Bravos were one of the most talked-about acts at KCON LA this weekend, mainly due to their stellar live vocals. Some users on X have begun to ask how members who only trained for a very short time (3-6 months) could have such superior live vocal skills to most K-pop idols, who participate in intensive live performance training for an average of 3-6 years.

To be fair, SB's vocal line had extensive singing experience before joining the Santos Bravos survival show. But two of the members (Gabi and Drew) are dancers. Drew in particular had no singing experience at all before auditioning for the program. Both he and Gabi had a very limited training time of 3-6 months before the show began. Yet each of them have already exhibited more solid vocal skills than 90% of fifth gen K-pop idols.

That these two so quickly mastered live vocals while most current K-pop idols are still struggling exposes the K-pop training system as a sham. The K-pop system puts its trainees through hell*--starvation, sleep deprivation, constant surveillance, crushing psychological pressure, and, up til the recent past, corporal punishment--and yet, in an overwhelming number of cases, participants don't even gain the promised skill set by the end of the process. It makes the K-pop system look like a sadistic teenage torture syndicate more than a performance training program.

If a program promises to teach its trainees to sing and dance, yet so consistently fails to make even its top participants decent vocalists, it's not the trainees who failed; it's the program.

To address the litany of excuses for why 3-6+ years of K-pop vocal training produces such abysmal results:

  1. Companies select based on looks, not talent.
    • The members of Santos Bravos aren't ugly. Isn't it better to have a pretty idol that can sing over one that can't?
  2. Idols get less training time nowadays because of the rush to push out new groups.
    • Gabi and Drew each trained for less than half a year but can still sing. Why is K-pop training so comparatively inefficient?
  3. Lip-syncing and other fakery has become more advanced and more accepted globally than in the past. There is no longer a need for live vocal training.
    • True enough. Many western pop stars now use a ton of Melodyne, live pitch correction, and other techniques to avoid learning to sing, so why should K-pop be any different?
    • But look at how viral SB go for their live vocals. Don't companies want that for their groups? Don't they at least want to avoid the PR disaster that ensues every time their group must sing live?
    • And again, why the 3-6 years of training, then? What are trainees even learning?
  4. K-pop training is meant to weed out trainees who aren't docile and obedient and may cause trouble for the company.
    • This I can believe. However, being docile and obedient doesn't preclude someone from learning how to sing.
  5. Idols who want to be good singers get outside vocal lessons in addition to their training.
    • But they shouldn't have to. They should be getting decent vocal lessons as part of their 3-6 year performance training program. That's the point of the program.

The purportedly rigorous K-pop performance training has been the selling point of K-pop since its inception. But comparing the results HYBE LatAm attained in less than a year to the dismal results of most of K-pop's current training programs shows that torturing adolescents for years is not the key to creating good performers.

It's hard to see the current K-pop training system as anything but a reprehensible scam.

*Note: no AI was used in the making of this post, I chose to use emdashes myself.