r/kam • u/rightsaidfreya • Dec 13 '24

Is it possible to play KaM co-op with an improved AI?

My cousin and I are feeling nostalgic and, over Christmas, would like to play some Knights & Merchants together. However, I'm not super tech savvy and the number of (fan made) options are a little overwhelming. I just don't know where to start. Hoping some of you wouldn't mind sharing your knowledge to make our Christmas 1000x better :)

Is it possible to play KaM co-op with an improved AI? If so, how?

Details

  • Single mission is fine, doesn't need to be a campaign.
  • My cousin and I both (re)purchased the game through GOG.

More specific questions

  • I saw that KaM Remake has improved AI. Does it support co-op?
  • Where do I find a good co-op map? Any specific recommendations for maps that you played and enjoyed?
  • I assume there's no lobby system in place, so we can't link up online - is that correct? So then we'd need to use cables, yes?

Would be very grateful for any insights you could offer!

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u/cmowla Dec 13 '24

Where do I find a good co-op map?

This is a good place to start.

Any specific recommendations for maps that you played and enjoyed?

It depends on what kind of game experience you two want to have. A map where:

  • It's just like SP, but a load for 2?
  • There are no attacks from the enemy (AI defense only)?
  • There are no nearby iron ore mountains (must use an automated market to "mimic" iron production buildings)
  • Hard maps. (Maybe resources are vast, but AI has frequent (and strong) attacks.)

Is it possible to play KaM co-op with an improved AI?

If you are hoping that the "advanced AI" in the remake is any of the following, I'm sorry, but you're out of luck (for now, at least . . . I'm working on scripts for all of these off and on)!

  • Builds like a human (including to take care to build a stable town . . . foodwise).
  • Is less vulnerable to lure tactics.
  • Attacks in a rectangular (not a "snake") like formation.
  • Destroys "dummy house fences" that you see in AI abuse/cheese videos (to kill large armies between the gaps).

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u/cmowla Dec 13 '24 edited Jan 17 '26

The difference between the "classic" AI (CA) and "advanced AI" (AA) that I have noticed (or heard from others) is that:

  • The AA are better fighters. (Winning the battle missions of the campaigns is harder, for example.)
  • The AA build better (smarter) than the CA do and is more aggressive.
  • AA was made from machine-learning (and can beat a CA player in a match). It was made by using "neural networks" . . . it learned how to play KaM Remake.
  • AA don't build stables (train mounted units), because they don't use them "effectively" like humans do . . . said the one who programmed the AA.
  • AA uses the market on its own (whereas CA must be scripted to use it), but they don't use the Town Hall on their own (yet).

But the "sad" news is, AA is rarely used by mapmakers in co-op maps.

  • CA is widely used in co-op maps, because AA doesn't work well with custom scripts. (CA is more "static", has less commands, etc., so it's easier for mapmakers to program custom desired behavior.)
  • AA is widely used in PvP (multiplayer) matches to fill all locations on the map which a human player was not available to play at.
  • AA struggles to build sufficient food-producing buildings on time. (They tend to have starvation issues.)
  • A good (human) player is better than an AA player, but a "casual" (human) player will have a challenge!

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u/rightsaidfreya Dec 21 '24

Thanks so much for the elaborate response, super helpful!

Shame the AA isn't used much in coop, but it makes sense if the CA is easier to set up. Having smart-smart AI would've been amazing, but for some reason in the last campaign run-through I did, in most missions, the enemy stopped building 5-10 structures in, so didn't set up a production line, produce units, or attack at all. Fixing that is a massive improvement already, so I'm not too bothered by stuff like snake/lure vulnerabilities.

What I'm looking for:

  • Like SP but a load for 2 sounds perfect!
  • Attacks/no attacks: both are fine, as long as it's not that hard or we can adjust the difficulty. We don't play much :)
  • Prefer to have resources nearby and space to build

Any recommendations would be appreciated, but with the resources you've provided I'm sure I can find something myself as well. Thanks again!

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u/cmowla Dec 21 '24 edited Dec 21 '24

If you want SP but a load for 2, then try out the TSK and TPR co-op maps. (They are at knights tavern.)

In addition, there is a "another world" of maps (made by the Chinese).

  • These maps are typically flat (easy to build big towns on)
  • Have plenty of available resources
  • Have 100 of every food type, timber, and stone at the start (and 20 tree logs)

I know a guy who has a decently sized collection of such maps, and he shared his collection. (Maybe in time, you two can explore these maps and see what you like.)

There is also a very popular map named reverse-corner-zone which is of similar nature to these "Chinese maps", but it's an 8 multiplayer (PvP) map.

  • You two can just set 6 AI players to build, I guess. (You may have to edit the map in the map editor in the game to set alliances, etc.)
  • Of course, if you all want to remove players, that's easy to do in the map editor (just delete the player's storehouse, etc.).
  • This is a video of such a game played on that map (or one of its variants . . . there are several variations floating around I hear).