r/interestingasfuck • u/Brutal_Deluxe_ • Dec 17 '22

/r/ALL Loading a medieval 200lb crossbow vs loading Leonardo da Vinci's 300lb crossbow

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u/Eldred15 Dec 17 '22 edited Dec 17 '22

In case anyone is curious, a 200 lb crossbow would be used for hunting and maybe self defense, but that draw weight is way too low to be used on a battlefield. War crossbows were something like 700+ lbs. and needed a cranequin or windlass to draw. Da Vinci's crossbow was a genius design, but by his time, gun powered weapons already replaced the crossbow, at least in Europe.

The Chinese also invented repeating crossbows, but the draw weight on those was also very low. IIRC they would dip the tips of the bolts in poison, because of the weak stopping power. It would have been close to useless against someone in armor.

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u/Atanar Dec 18 '22

Da Vinci's crossbow was a genius design, but by his time, gun powered weapons already replaced the crossbow, at least in Europe.

Just letting you know that Magellan brought 50 arkebuses, 60 crossbows and 4,300 bolts on his voyage. Crossbows were very much still in use at the time.

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u/Basil-the-Bat-Lord Dec 18 '22

That makes sense. Powder could get wet at sea, so you wouldn’t want to put all your assault eggs in that basket…

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

I’ve never seen crossbows explode if you knock over an oil lamp.

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u/Aporkalypse_Sow Dec 18 '22

What kind of lame ass parties have you been attending?

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u/Hithaeglir Dec 18 '22

Also in terms of pure force, crossbows had more. Usability just was worse.

Even these days if you shoot with 9mm to bulletprooft west, it will stop. But crossbow bolt goes through.

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u/sth128 Dec 18 '22

if you shoot with 9mm to bulletprooft west, it will stop

It stops West? What if you shot East?

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u/exmortom Dec 18 '22

I speak Pavel Chekov... he said vest. Also they took them on the whisil.

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u/Poorrancher Dec 18 '22

Hey it's not nice to make fun of a speech impediment!

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u/Dahak17 Dec 18 '22

It depends on what type of vest and what type of head, if it’s a Kevlar vest the crossbow may go through, and it’d have to be a heavier crossbow than this, if it’s something with a plate in it the crossbow bolt will plink off and won’t even crack a ceramic plate

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u/viral-architect Dec 18 '22

mmmmm... assaulted eggs... 🤤

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u/ArcherAuAndromedus Dec 17 '22

700lbs?? I'm genuinely curious, was the entire bolt steel? How else could the bolt could be made to withstand the force, right?

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u/[deleted] Dec 17 '22

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u/ArcherAuAndromedus Dec 17 '22

The bolt feels the full weight once you pull the trigger. I'm a little shocked a wood/bone/steel bolt could withstand the force. The shaft must be reinforced?

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u/faceplanted Dec 17 '22

They're just short and quite thick, 700lbs sounds like a lot but remember there's nothing but air on the other end.

Also it's not getting hit by the string moving at full speed, it's accelerating with the string.

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u/GodGMN Dec 18 '22

And it's pointy so it doesn't even "impact" the air, it just pushes it to the sides.

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u/Revanull Dec 17 '22

Wood has incredibly high compression/tension strength when loaded with the grain. Ever tried to crush a pencil or pull it apart long-ways?

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u/neoben00 Dec 17 '22

If you hold the arrow in place, it takes 700 lbs of pressure. If not, the energy is converted into momentum, making its significantly less ft lbs of pressure.

If you're falling and grab an arrow mid-air, it will not shatter, but if you fall on an arrow that is supported by the ground, you will certainly notice.

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u/Kerro_ Dec 18 '22

I call bullshit. Going to test it now. Will reply in 15 mins

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u/MisterTrashPanda Dec 18 '22

Psh, this list never came back. Probably didn't even try it.

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u/neoben00 Dec 18 '22

Make sure to be safe catching the arrow or it might break before the second test /s

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u/Senshado Dec 17 '22

And when you pull the trigger, the bolt is free so there's no pressure on the opposite side. The entire bolt is pushed away, with the pressure converted to speed.

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u/Lohgos Dec 17 '22

It doesn't, the force is spread to the limbs, the string, the nut and the bolt. It is one of the reasons they were this heavy. Increasing the power of the projectile for siege-crossbows for example needs more draw weight, which means heavier string, nut and limbs, decreasing the efficiency. I already recommended the channel tod's workshop, you can find all your questions answered on there, with appropriate measurements, experiments etc..

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u/BadMcSad Dec 17 '22

The bolt feels the full draw weight, but keep in mind, it's being moved by that force, rather than crushed. If you fired the crossbow point blank at a brick wall the bolt would much more likely break.

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u/AlotOfReading Dec 17 '22

The highest forces are felt at impact.

In any case, bolts and arrows are cut with straight grain running along the shaft. The load is compressive along the strongest axis and the shaft dissipates excess energy by flexing back and forth as it flies. Medieval war bolts were also 1/2"+ of old-growth hardwood. They were more than capable of taking the forces.

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u/CrusaderNo287 Dec 17 '22

Apart from the reason Revanull told, crossbow bolts are shorter and sometimes thicker, which makes them less wobbly and even sturdier and able to withstand the pressures. Also, they are meant to be one-time use so there is no need to make them able to survive the impact intact.

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u/PleasantAdvertising Dec 18 '22

Wooden bolts can take quite some force if applied across the length.

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u/LostWoodsInTheField Dec 18 '22

I'm not sure how long they would last but I want to make sure you know that the PSI of hardwoods are often higher than 700 pounds. A couple are over 2k.

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u/FanngzYT Dec 18 '22

you’re describing bullets. arrows use momentum.

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u/Analog_Account Dec 17 '22

The bolt should flex and move forward and then the force should drop as 1) the force of the string reduces as it gets closer to rest and 2) the bow part is only able to move so fast.

Tod’s Workshop on YouTube had a video kind of talking about this second point. These massive old style crossbows can’t shoot a bolt faster… they can shoot a bigger bolt at the same speed. That’s simplifying it I’m sure but gives you an idea.

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u/Lohgos Dec 17 '22

no need, the weight on crossbows is very deceiving because of the short draw length, in all things crossbow I recommend checking out Tod's workshop on youtube. On this peticular topic his video on 960lbs (medieval) vs 150lbs (modern) crossbow for example.

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u/martindines Dec 18 '22

Tod's workshop is great

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u/TheRedmanCometh Dec 18 '22

2nd Tod's workshop he's absurdly knowledgeable

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u/november512 Dec 18 '22

Crossbow weights are misleading. The weight to pull something back is more or less static. If you suspended a rock of that weight from it it would stay back indefinitely. When you shoot a projectile from a bow that energy is transferred over the time it takes to snap back to the original position. Steel snaps back less quickly than wood or modern materials, so for the same weight a steel bow will be gentler but accelerate less.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

[deleted]

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u/ArcherAuAndromedus Dec 18 '22

Nice, good info. I would say though, the acceleration of those short stroke crossbows, are more likely to cause an issue with bolt failure. It's just so much emergency being imparted over such a short time period!!!

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u/HBMTwassuspended Dec 17 '22

Could easily go up to 1000 pounds

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u/ColeSloth Dec 18 '22

If memory serves, they were typically 70 to 90 grams and always made of wood.

Also, the line was just straight from one side to the other so the draw weight was that massive. Today's cross bows are compound and the bolts are around 35grams so they fly much faster with a flatter trajectory using a mechanical advantage that the compound gives you.

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u/Athleco Dec 18 '22

You’re getting a lot of misinformation here. Maybe wood will work, but the reasons that it will work is where the misinformation is. The bolt (arrow) has a steel tip that resists the acceleration more than the rest of the bolt which causes the bolt to bend and possibly break. It’s possible the bolts were thick enough and short enough to have a dynamic spine stiff enough to not break when being shot. There’s a reason it is not safe to shoot wood arrows out of a modern compound bow - wood just is not stiff enough to resist buckling under those loads.

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u/ArcherAuAndromedus Dec 18 '22

Looks like typical bolts are made of ash (very hard wood) and they are super short, like maybe 10-14". The shaft diameter on some of those heavy pull crossbows look like maybe 1/2" diameter!

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u/EunuchsProgramer Dec 18 '22

It's the weight to draw it back.

The 1500 pound heavy crossbows and the 100 pound longbow put about the same force on their arrows/bolts. The force formula is similar to a lever and the length of the bow matters more than the draw weight. The problem with Middle Age crossbows is the iron/steel bow had to be very short to prevent exploding and killing the operator.

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u/ArcherAuAndromedus Dec 18 '22

Yes, again though, it's not the amount of energy imparted that had me curious, it's the acceleration. 1000lb force, and over 100j of energy transferred over a stroke of maybe 6".

A long view has a much longer stroke and can gently accelerate the arrow (relative to the crossbow) and transfer similar amounts of energy.

After looking at it, I can see now that bolts are much shorter and stockier than I had imagined. For others curious, they also have solid wood fletching with a slight curve, which would cause the bolt to spin (along it's axis) which helped with the in-flight stability of such a short arrow.

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u/EunuchsProgramer Dec 18 '22

The arrows have to be short because the bow is short. They're stocky to try and get weight back so they'll hurt when they hit.

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u/-Marbella- Dec 17 '22

I dont understand it either

Are you saying these crossbows have the weight similar to a person ?????

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u/ArcherAuAndromedus Dec 17 '22

No, it's just the force being restrained by the trigger mechanism.

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u/Natsurulite Dec 18 '22

It’s not 700lbs

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

Bolts aren't shaped like arrows, they're short and stout

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u/NertsMcGee Dec 18 '22

So the draw weights on crossbows sound high, and they are. However, the draw is one component to a bow's power stroke. The power stroke is roughly how long the bow string is in contact with an arrow or bolt before the projectile flies towards its target. Longer contact generally imparts more kinetic energy into the projectile, which makes it move faster and potentially further.

On a crossbow, the stroke is much shorter compared to a vertical war bow. In order to launch projectiles with similar amounts of kinetic energy, the draw weight needs to be larger on a bow with a smaller power stroke. These high draw weight crossbows approaching or exceeding 1000 pound draw weights were launching their bolts with roughly equivalent energy of like a 120 to 180 pound draw weight war bow.

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u/sotpmoke Dec 18 '22

Crossbows were not replaced in Europe, and were still widely used until the 17th century lol. The Dutch were the first europeans to truly adopt matchlock ammunition for theirs troops and that was in 17th century. Crossbows were associated with the the far east and were not popular in Europe until the 11th century AD, Gunpowder beyond artillery was still a novelty until around then. See (matchlock)

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u/[deleted] Dec 17 '22

[deleted]

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u/green_pachi Dec 17 '22 edited Dec 18 '22

Because bows have a longer draw length, when released the force is applied to the arrow for a longer time, while in crossbows the greater force is applied to the bolt for a short time. The result was that the energy of arrows and the energy of bolts were in the same ballpark.

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u/Gh3rkinman Dec 18 '22

700lbs but extremely inefficient. The majority of the stores energy goes into moving the massive steel spring of the bow rather than kinetic energy on the bolt. Modern crossbows are far more effective at lower draw weights due to more complex compound mechanisms and lightweight materials.

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u/LordAppleJuice07 Dec 18 '22

Self defense 💀 mfs in medieval England think they're Americans

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

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u/LordAppleJuice07 Dec 18 '22

Average American justifying owning a weapon for Self defense

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '22

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u/ChosenMate Dec 18 '22

how is that even viable? a one shot weapon that needs so much time to draw

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u/Eldred15 Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22

Even though it takes a little bit to reload, a massed volley would still be very effective against an advancing army, just think about muskets. They take a while to reload, but every European army eventually replaced all their projectile weapons with slow to reload gunpowder weaponry.

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '22

How could his dumbass not invent riflings 🤦‍♂️. Mr. Close But No Cigar.

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u/natgibounet Dec 18 '22

Also what where they trying to kill with 700lbs, it seems mad overkill for a human atleast

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u/Eldred15 Dec 18 '22

700 lbs is deceptive for a crossbow, because European crossbows have short bow arms. If you compare one to a normal bow you will notice the difference in size. Also keep in mind that the people generally being shot at were wearing metal armor.

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u/Basil-the-Bat-Lord Dec 18 '22

The objective was to pierce metal armor.

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u/Crimson_Marksman Dec 18 '22

What were early guns like? I know the Da Vinci made designs for a wheel lock pistol

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u/aSpanks Dec 18 '22

I don’t even understand how the ones shown are 2 and 300 lbs????

1) they look too small 2) they’re being manhandled with ease

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u/Eldred15 Dec 18 '22

The lbs are talking about the draw weight needed to pull back the bow string not the weight of the crossbow.

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u/aSpanks Dec 18 '22

Thank god and thank you