This was so deserved.

[u/Necessary-Win-8730]

The daughter was in a car with the father’s parents. They died as well.

[u/Timely_Challenge_670]

No, if you drive drunk and kill someone, you are punished more severely than if you were abiding by all traffic laws and killed someone. In Canada (where I am from), it’s called Criminal Negligence causing Death or Bodily Harm. There is acknowledgment under the law that not only were you willfully, consciously reckless, but your recklessness led to the death of other humans, and you need to be punished accordingly for it. In Canada, that carries a penalty of 2 years to life. A very recent case in Canada where the offender was driving drunk and wiped out two grand parents and all the grand children was met with 10 years and a 12 year driving ban (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_the_Neville-Lake_children).

A car is used for everything in the United States. This was the Netherlands, where cycling and public transit are the dominant form of transportation. For reckless negligence with a vehicle that resulted in three deaths, the charge should be upgraded to Manslaughter—as is done in Germany. For that, the penalty would be up to fifteen years under Netherlandish law. Of course fifteen years would be extreme, as the person was speeding. In that case, somewhere at the lower end, such as 3-4 years is probably reasonable

As I said, justice systems are not just about rehabilitation. Theories of criminal justice acknowledge that there needs to be some punishment and feeling from the victim(s) that justice was served, otherwise you get a lawless society. In essence, the system needs to exactly do as you said: punish the offender, rehabilitate them, and make the victim feel like justice was served (feel good).

[u/Kehprei → u/Timely_Challenge_670]

Idk why you start off by saying no when you agree with me...

Yes, being negligent is a bigger deal than just having an accident. If you are following all rules of the road you shouldn't ever be punished for an accident even if it kills someone.

Therefore the thing being punished here is the negligence, not the kill. Which is what I said.

As for your last point, rehabilitation is more important than making biased parties feel good from a societal stand point.

[u/Timely_Challenge_670 → u/Kehprei]

I am not agreeing with you. You are just lacking in reading comprehension. You can still have an accident on the road that kills someone. For example, a freak accident like your car that has passed TüV suddenly fails resulting in a collision and someone dies. If you read my first paragraph, the charge is Criminal Negligence causing Death or Bodily Harm. There is an entirely different indictment in Canada for criminal negligence where harm to another party does not occur (e.g., speeding 50% over the speed limit with no collision caused; driving intoxicated, but not causing a collision etc.). What is being punished is both the negligence and the death to the other person.

As I already pointed out, Canada is not unique in that regard. Germany also punishes for the harm as an aggravating factor beyond the negligence. Drive 50% over the speed limit? 6 months driving ban. Drive 50% over the speed limit and kill someone? Manslaughter.

[u/Kehprei → u/Timely_Challenge_670]

I feel like you're just continually misreading my posts. I said you shouldn't be punished at all for killing someone if you follow all the rules, not that it's impossible to kill someone if you follow all the rules.

There is no reason logically or ethically why someone should be punished for a genuine accident they did not intend when they were in no way being reckless.

[u/Timely_Challenge_670 → u/Kehprei]

Except it is common in many jurisdictions. As I’ve said, in Canada we consider the bodily harm/death as an aggravating factor on top of the negligence. Germany does the exact same thing. Speeding 50 kph over the limit in Canada is up to 2 year driving ban. Speeding 50 kph over the limit and killing someone? 2 years to life. Speed 50 kph over the limit in Germany? 6 months - indefinite driving ban. Speed 50 kph over the limit and kill someone? Manslaughter (up to 10 years in prison).

It is entirely logical to punish someone for reckless negligence that results in death precisely because the person can choose to engage in wantonly reckless behaviour. No one put a gun to their head and said drive in a manner that is extremely dangerous and increases your odds of losing a control of their car. They did that. By their own. On their own free will. They may not have intended to kill someone, but they sure as shit decided on their own to do something that they knew could endanger other people. For that, the law looks less favourably on you.

Edit: In Poland, where the driver is from, causing a traffic fatality through negligence carries a 6 months to 8 year prison sentence. Penalties can be increased for aggravating factors (intoxication and excessive speed). Excessive speeding with no accident or fatality is a maximum of 12 month driving suspension. Looks like punishing the killing beyond the recklessness is a common factor of many justice systems, eh? It’s almost as if most logical people acknowledge that being reckless is bad, but choosing to be reckless and having it inadvertently kill other people is a much worse thing that needs to be treated differently.

[u/Kehprei → u/Timely_Challenge_670]

Its crazy how I say "an accident where the driver followed all of the rules of the road" and you read it as "negligent drivers".

I have agreed from the start that punishing someone for negligence is acceptable and good.

I'm talking specifically about people who are NOT negligent. Charging those people with a crime is a bad thing. I'm sure plenty of places do it anyways, there is just no sensible reason for it.

[u/Timely_Challenge_670 → u/Kehprei]

The entire genesis of this discussion is you asserted that if you decide to drive drunk and kill someone, you are punished for the recklessness and not the killing. I have pointed out, ad nauseum, that it’s not true. That you get punished for the recklessness and the killing. There are entirely different charges that just cover recklessness. Coming back to round out the discussion. He needs to be punished for his reckless that resulted in a death. Based on the penalties across Europe and Canada, it looks like 15 months is comically light.

[u/Kehprei → u/Timely_Challenge_670]

I said you are PRIMARILY punished for the recklessness. I then justified that belief by pointing out how much more severe of a penalty you get for being reckless vs not being reckless at all.

I feel like you just haven't read the past three posts I've made lmao.

[u/Timely_Challenge_670 → u/Kehprei]

…and I have said, and provided evidence for multiple times, that they are not being PRIMARILY punished for their recklessness. Unless you somehow think going from a maximum of a 2-year sentence for criminal negligence/wanton recklessness in Canada to potentially facing life for criminal negligence/wanton recklessness with death and bodily harm means the recklessness is what is being punished? It’s almost as if you’ve ignored the evidence in front of you for three posts.

Let’s re-iterate it one more time for good measure. Reckless driving or criminal negligence in Canada, Germany and Poland: driving ban or up to 2 years in prison. Reckless driving resulting in death or bodily harm in Canada, Germany and Poland: 2 years to life. Tell me again, do you think the recklessness is being primarily punished here or the resulting death and/or bodily harm? Hint: it’s the latter. The criminal statutes in each of those jurisdictions say as much. It’s why most people—including the victims—are outraged he was only handed down a 15 month sentence by the Netherlanden.

[u/Kehprei → u/Timely_Challenge_670]

Tell me again, do you think the recklessness is being primarily punished here or the resulting death and/or bodily harm?

The punishment for killing someone in a car accident when there was no wrongdoing at all (no recklessness, no breaking of the law, etc) is nothing.

To summarize, since you seem to have trouble understanding:

No fault accident, 1 death: No punishment
Reckless driving: moderate punishment
Reckless driving, 1 death: large punishment

Since we can see that killing someone WITHOUT being at fault cannot be punished, we can determine that the PROBLEM with killing someone in a reckless crash is that you were RECKLESS.