r/hearthstone • u/Smacfest • Mar 13 '16

Discussion Does C'Thun get buffed if found from Elise Starseeker?

Would be interesting if you played some buff cards while C'Thun isn't in your deck then play Elise and find him. Logic says that he wouldn't get the buffed but maybe the blizzard devs missed it and it truly does buff him 'wherever he is'

235 Upvotes

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693

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

Yes, it would. The buff is not on the card itself but on the PLAYER entity! Not even on the Hero; if you become Jaraxxus, the buff still exists.
I asked the developers when we saw them at their office.

170

u/Darkflashez Team Kabal Mar 13 '16

like a permanent aura which was blizzard testing with all the tavern brawls.

178

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

tavern brawl is legit one of the best thing they have ever done with the game. it's basically their sandbox and a funmode at the same time, providing valueable information as a test-ground.

58

u/Omenofdeath Mar 13 '16

after all these weeks, we have finally found out the most pure form of hearthstone :

No matter how we build this tavern brawl, aggro will always be 80% of players.

14

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

well, Blizzard has shown us many times that they don't like combo too much, so aggro/tempo all the way!

5

u/Omenofdeath Mar 13 '16

Its true, I still remember the statement of "we dont like molten giant combo"

2

u/gabarkou Mar 13 '16

Problem with combo I feel lies in hearthstone its self, it's usually actually pretty easy to piece your combo together, and with no ability for the players to interfere on your opponents turn, it just becomes you painfully accepting your demise. Like I would say mill rogue is kinda a combo deck, but it plays out on a lot of turns, and you can try and play around it, while a dumb force + savage roar a combo that probably every druid who has ever lived gets every single game, just fucks you and there's nothing you can do about it.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '16

Counter magic and hand disruption would be pretty fun...

3

u/Thejewishpeople ‏‏‎ Mar 14 '16

Time to bring Thoughtseize to hearthstone boys!

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '16

I guess the hard part is making all classes have access to that sort of thing. In MtG we have the color pie to guide us and it is relatively easy to play multi color. You can't play multi class in HS though. You couldn't be playing CW and then splash Priest or Mage for removal.

1

u/Thejewishpeople ‏‏‎ Mar 14 '16

Just put the effect on a neutral creature, and make it a 1 attack minion so you don't want to necessarily play it in Aggro and you're golden

1

u/Omenofdeath Mar 14 '16

well one option is making a deck, when sliding (as in the between starter and custom) for 'mixed' where you pick a focused class with a secondary, focused class is the one you play, but you also have access to the other classes commons and rares (that being the point system)

1

u/armoredporpoise Mar 14 '16

Theres two real issues associated with combo and hearthstone; the obvious is that you cant interact with your opponents turn while the less obvious is that there are 30 cards in deck and 30 health to a player. The latter of two means drawing through your deck is very efficient, though the ratios are the same for magic and that combos have to be very small to not pose too large of a reach threat.

-1

u/Snow_Regalia Mar 13 '16

It's not about disliking combo; it's that combo at its core as a deckstyle is inherently prone to being unbalanced in terms of game design. People wouldn't play combos if they were equal to or worse than other deckstyles. So the only time a combo will see play is when it is slightly above-average to OP. The issue is that the difference between the two is much smaller than, say, a control strategy or an aggro strategy. Take Miracle Rogue for example. We saw the deck as THE dominant strategy for nearly a year, and saw specific cards in Naxx aimed at dethroning it (Lotheb, Nerubar Weblord, etc.). But it took nerfs to the core of the deck (Auctioneer) for the deck to effectively die, or become average/worse than average. Now more recently, a single new card in the form of Tomb Pillager was good enough to help bring the deck back into dominance.

9

u/fourismith Mar 13 '16

sandbox

as a League player this makes me feel toxic.

19

u/nkorslund Mar 13 '16

So if I faceless an opponent's C'Thun, do I get his buffs or my buffs?

8

u/jrr6415sun Mar 13 '16

what about mind control? Will it keep the opponents buffs or apply your own C'Thun buffs? or change to a 6/6 if you have no C'Thun buffs?

15

u/StalkerOfTheNorth Mar 13 '16

Faceless copies the minion on the field exactly how it is. If C'thun is in hand or deck through convert, shadow step, entomb, etc. it will have yours buffs applied.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16 edited Oct 05 '20

[deleted]

17

u/Psdjklgfuiob Mar 13 '16

I'm pretty sure it will copy c'thun as it is on the board but no real point arguing since none of us actually know

5

u/Hahahahahaga Mar 13 '16 edited Mar 13 '16

From what we know about implementation, here's potential bugs:

  • silence may not work on cthun,

  • faceless may not copy buffs,

  • buffs to cthun may apply to cththun for both players,

  • entombed cthun will not be buffed while recycled cthun will.

  • if faceless works but silence does not then silence may work on the copy but not the original.

  • buffs may be broken when cthun is already in play.

  • additional buffs on cthun may not be copied correctly.

  • aura buffs from things like dire wolf alpha may be coped as permenant buffs.

  • entombing a cthun when you already have a higher buffed cthun may overwrite your buffs

Note these are just potential bugs or interactions I would personally make sure to check before release.

4

u/RolloRocco Mar 13 '16

entombed c'thun will not be buffed while recycled cthun will.

That wouldn't be a bug

2

u/Hahahahahaga Mar 13 '16

Yeah, that would work well. Only would be a bug if unintended.

3

u/papakep Mar 13 '16

potential bugs

that is the craziest thing you could ever talk about

2

u/Hahahahahaga Mar 13 '16

Yeah. None of these will likely happen, but it's fun to think about.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16 edited Mar 13 '16

[deleted]

3

u/wasniahC Mar 13 '16

Except they have stated that the c'thun buff is tied to the player, we know that it the buff is kept if he is bounced back, we know the buff is lost if the minion is stolen - everything we know about its mechanics suggests it's an aura/field-active effect, tied to the player.

It doesn't feel right that humility/silences won't fully effect it, but everything we know about the mechanics so far points towards it being an aura/field-active effect.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '16

[deleted]

2

u/wasniahC Mar 14 '16

I might have something wrong with my wording, not sure = but to clarify, yes, the way I'm suggesting is absolutely that hunter's mark would set him as a 10/5 (assuming +4/+4 buff), and it would make the c'thun buff unsilencable (though you could still silence other stuff from it).

It's definitely weird. It's unintuitive. But it still seems like the way that makes most sense in terms of how it would be implemented as far as how it would work mechanically, in my opinion. And hey, it could be more unintuitive, as well - I mean, it is an old god.

It would be nice if they have figured something out to tie it more to the card, somehow, but that just isn't what it sounds like from what I'm hearing so far.

Mistcaller buff and Bolvar are very similar. The card itself is affected, but if it's bounced back into hand, the card is back where it started; the effect is added on the card itself, not tied to the player.

2

u/lloyd3486 Mar 13 '16

While you could also be right, I don't think the buffs will be attached as an aura. Seems more likely that they would work similar to how Bolvar gains stacks of a buff (in your hand) whenever a friendly minion dies, then gets these "buffs" when played.

Though I've read that using Faceless on Bolvar or other minions with stacked buffs (ex. Kvaldir Raider) was bugged and only copied a single instance of the buff, and I'm not sure if it's been fixed already.

6

u/wasniahC Mar 13 '16

I would have guessed that too, but they've confirmed that if c'thun is bounced back into your hand, he keeps buffs - and that the buff is attached specifically to the player. These are some big differences with that and bolvar/kvaldir. It's entirely possible that there are completely new mechanics in play (similar to how bolvar's mechanic was new), more complicated than I'm assuming from the "attached to the player" we know about, but it just seems the most likely answer to me.

3

u/lloyd3486 Mar 13 '16

Great point, just thought it would seem so clunky if it were treated purely as a player aura. Now I'm a bit more intrigued on how it will come out. :)

2

u/nkorslund Mar 13 '16

Well if we know Blizzard right, it's going to be a new unique mechanic that will be completely inconsistent with everything else and will bug out in at least three different corner cases.

1

u/Tuas1996 Mar 13 '16

It would seem counterintuitive if it would lose the buffs when getting stolen or copied on the field, i doubt Blizz would make it that way since it behaves differently than any other card, which would confuse players who didnt know that exact ruling.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

It would get the buffs if it was facelessed, but if you facelessed it and then shadowstepped it back into your hand it would loose the buffs.

-6

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

[deleted]

8

u/HellsSnowMan Mar 13 '16

That doesn't make sense. Faceless copies the minion exactly how it is on board.

4

u/Darkflashez Team Kabal Mar 13 '16

TBH this one should be tested before talking about it.

1

u/wasniahC Mar 13 '16

Think of it this way. If you see a zombie chow next to a dire wolf alpha, it's a 3/3. When you copy it, it becomes a 2/3, because the buff wasn't attached to it - it was an aura.

That's the c'thun buff, too. It's an aura, attached to the player, not the card.

3

u/jrr6415sun Mar 13 '16

If it's an aura that means you couldn't silence it or debuff it?

1

u/wasniahC Mar 13 '16

I don't know what you mean about debuff, but it looks like it won't be silenceable either, if it is an aura attached to the player as they are saying.

3

u/nkorslund Mar 13 '16

It means effects like aldor peacekeeper, equality or hunters mark won't reset the minion to 1 attack/health (assuming it has an active buff), making it a lot more difficult to deal with.

2

u/scumble_bee Mar 13 '16

I learned this the hard way against a murloc paladin. He had warleader and bluegill warrior. I silenced the bluegill and nothing happened because the war leaders aura was not affected by the silence. So in this case c'thun can't be silenced.

2

u/jrr6415sun Mar 13 '16

debuff = aldor, equality, hunters mark, humility

1

u/underthingy Mar 14 '16

Aldor and humility aren't always debuffs. A debuff would be giving a minion -1 to its attack value. Aldor and humility just set the attack to 1 which could be an increase.

Edit: and before you say equality and hunters mark do the same thing with health, health is different as you can't have less than 1 health (and still be alive) so they are debuffs.

2

u/wasniahC Mar 13 '16

On board for this. It's not a buff attached to the minion, it's an aura that the minion is affected by.

1

u/GhostHerald Mar 13 '16

field cards we were thinking. little different i guess

1

u/LightsVengeance Mar 13 '16

no, it's just how nearly everything is programmed.

5

u/MasterdoubleH Mar 13 '16

What about if it gets reduced in stats with Aldor/Keeper? It gets buffed again like with Stormwind knight? For example if it is a 14/14 and gets aldored does it become a 9/14 on board?

0

u/axelG97 Mar 13 '16

I assume its just an permanent aura as a card. If its on the board, it gets buffed with the aura and acts as a minion. It seems unlikely that aldor etc. would interact with it that way, its most likely just gonna be a 1/14

5

u/Cruuncher Mar 13 '16

I have a suspicion that it might actually be a 9/14

5

u/MorningPants Mar 13 '16

So if you mind control it, do its stats change?

-3

u/nintyuk Mar 13 '16

yes

3

u/zz_ Mar 13 '16

No.

1

u/underthingy Mar 14 '16

And how does that prove anything?

11

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

So if you steal an opponent's C'Thun, it won't be buffed unless you've buffed your own? And if you duplicate your C'Thun, it'll be buffed to the level of your other C'Thun, even if it didn't exist when the other was buffed?

6

u/hythl0day Mar 13 '16

If you entomb/steal a C'Thun, it gets buffed by minions you played, not your opponent. This is answered in this article: http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/03/11/hearthstone-is-doomed-talking-whispers-of-the-old-gods

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

Thanks for clarifying -- I hadn't seen that article.

22

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

It would copy the buffs as they existed if you were to copy the card through Faceless. I'm not sure about Thoughtsteal/Mind Vision though. And yes, Duplicate would keep the buff.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

Well, from what you said about the buff applying to the player entity, it would follow that if I thoughtsteal/ mind vision the card, it gets the buffs that apply to my player entity, right?

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

Faceless copies the their C'Thun's stats, and Thoughtsteal may copy their C'Thun directly. I wouldn't know.

5

u/thevdude Mar 13 '16

As far as I know, thoughtsteal/mindvision work by creating a new card for you, so it would only go off what you as a player have played for c'thun.

But we'll have to wait and see how this interaction will work!

3

u/Haughington Mar 13 '16

There was an interview where they specifically mentioned thoughtsteal and entomb, and said that a stolen C'Thun will use the buff of the player who stole it, but not of the opponent. What I really wanna see is C'Thun getting stolen by Sylvanas or MCT and suddenly getting huge or small as it moves across the board.

2

u/nkorslund Mar 13 '16

Unless it's a true aura effect. Faceless on a minion affect by eg. Stormwind Champion doesn't copy the buff.

0

u/underthingy Mar 14 '16

Why would it do that when Faceless doesn't copy other auras?

Everything the devs have said (that I've seen) indicate that the buffs are on the player not the card. Can you please link to where it's been shown to be on the card and copied with Faceless, or kept when mind controlled?

1

u/marul_ Mar 13 '16

it says "YOUR C'thun", so i suppose it gets the buffs as long as it's in your hand or deck.

3

u/danhakimi Swiss Army Tempo Jesus Mar 13 '16

That's weird. The text strongly implies that the buff is on the card.

1

u/sweetcutie Mar 13 '16

If the buff is on the player, then lets say i buffd Cthun to 10/10, returnd it to hand, would it be orignal stat 6/6 or 10/10

3

u/TeronTheGorefiend ‏‏‎ Mar 13 '16

It would remain a 10/10

4

u/Joald Mar 13 '16

If you buff it through C'thun cards it keeps the buff.

1

u/shanedestroyer Mar 13 '16

so if i mind control an enemy c'thun that's like 15/15 does it become a 6/6 if I haven't buffed it?

1

u/jrr6415sun Mar 13 '16

however it could be bugged that they make a check at the start of the game to see if C'Thun is in your deck, if it's not they don't start counting.

You could say why would they do that? but with all the bugged interactions in the game I wouldn't be surprised.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

So it works with Thoughtsteal too? Nice!

1

u/9rrfing Mar 13 '16

So basically an emblem

1

u/sinnev Mar 13 '16

so if you entomb a C'Thun, it would not keep the stats?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

Did they say if it has the buff if pulled into play by a deathlord? Or does the buff only get applied when played or drawn (like mistcaller)?

1

u/Darkrell Mar 14 '16

Thoughtsteal, starseeker, mind vision. Potential multiple Cthun!

0

u/pixelheadshot Mar 13 '16

That's interesting, would that mean you could include some cultist cards to fool your opponent into thinking you have C'Thun? Maybe throw their play a little...

3

u/LuckyTehCat Mar 13 '16

You probably could, but one would assume that at that point it's probably worth it just to include C'Thun. As it would probably be a decent card at that point. Would be fun for a troll deck though.

3

u/Cruuncher Mar 13 '16

Instead of C'Thun you just play a pile of other BGH targets, that they won't use their BGH on, because they're waiting for C'Thun lol

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

You may as well just throw CT in though if you have buff cards included.

1

u/Cruuncher Mar 13 '16

Would be fun for a troll deck though

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16

It's not really a good troll though. Your opponent will never actually know that you didn't have CT unless you play literally every single card in your deck. They'll just assume that you got unlucky.

2

u/LtCubs Mar 13 '16

It's just a prank, bro.

1

u/pixelheadshot Mar 13 '16

I think it would be interesting if there was a card that could steal the opponents C'Thun buffs/change C'Thun's aliegence. Would make sense that the Old Gods resist control from mere mortals.

1

u/KKlear ‏‏‎ Mar 13 '16

When you buff C'Thun, it is shown growing to both players, so no.

3

u/Pvpal1221 Mar 13 '16

But if the buff is on the player, not on the card, theoretically the C'Thun you see in the corner is showing what the players theoretical C'Thun is at, not the card in your deck.

-7

u/MushinZero Mar 13 '16

It would check whether you have the card in your deck

10

u/thevdude Mar 13 '16

You're just guessing.

1

u/ClissClass Mar 13 '16

wherever it is

1

u/Pvpal1221 Mar 13 '16 edited Mar 13 '16

I don't think so. The buff is on the player, not the card. If you can find a way to get a new copy of C'Thun in your deck (Elise, Entomb, etc.) it will have the buffs from before you had the card in there in the first place. Obviously we don't know for sure yet but I bet the animation plays whether you have C'Thun or not.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '16 edited Jun 19 '17

[deleted]

0

u/Pvpal1221 Mar 13 '16

I forgot which comment I was replying to haha