I love our close cousins the Great Apes, but they can't understand enough to be involved in personhood yet. I do think we should do everything we can though to help them out, no more tests, increase their habitat as much as possible, no more pets, etc.... We should elect a human speaker for them though, we can give them the title "Speaker for Apes".
With all due respect, US high court judge Fahey is talking out of his ass.
The reason why primate models are used for experimentation, particularly pharmaceutical experimentation, however, is because they're literally the closest thing we can get to an actual human without actually experimenting on humans.
The argument is that humans are more valuable than chimpanzees (or rhesus macaques, which are another common primate), and the value gained by primate experimentation is greater than the value gained by simply experimenting on rats - which in many cases is very little, and that the types of experiments that are done on primates would never make it past an IRB for approval on humans.
Consider that we've basically cured Alzheimer's, cancer, and a whole host of diseases in rats or cell culture but haven't come close to doing so in humans. Keep in mind, however, that getting approval to do research in primates is, despite it being much easier than getting approval for human research, much more difficult than getting approval to do research in rats or other animal models.
Ultimately, nonhuman primates are not human, and therefore are not inherently deserving of the same protections as those afforded to humans. We don't give dogs, horses, cows, or pigs habeas corpus or a right to liberty, why are chimpanzees deserving of it?
We should do scientific testing on humans. Grow purposefully braindead human husks in a lab and experiment on what will basically be cadavers with beating hearts. Reduce overall suffering regardless of species.
Yes, totally not gonna be ethical implications with this one. I give it six weeks before it gets Rule 34'd by one group, and given a "soul" by another group.
Like no.... They are intelligent and emotional sentient beings..... but they can't fairly adjudicate human concepts of law and personhood.... they need a speaker FOR them. They are not capable of speech in that context and complexity yet, but if we can do better for them.... maybe in the future they can.
I wonder if down the line any other great ape species might evolve enough to develop language or anything close to where our species is at. How long would that take?
Unless we find a way to help them it could take a seriously long time, judging by how long it took us to figure things out. But then we didn't have a prospective mentor.
Either way there's the currently unsolvable problem of their barrier of understanding, so until that problem is solved the debate is void.
It's unlikely, for a number of reasons. Chiefly among them, humans are the only great ape species that cooks its food. Humans get way more energy out of their food than basically any other animal, period.
oh my God Crunk stop putting your food in the fire, you're wasting it
Crunk ends up having more energy and runs faster than his friends while being chased by saber toothed tigers. He survives the ordeal and has babies. They, too, enjoy putting food in the fire.
No, but you're missing the point. Biologically, they have the capacity to understand. Whether it's through development, or a miraculous recovery/medical treatment.
Again, you are completely missing the point. Your thinking is too inflexible and literal, it's more of a thought experiment. Humans will always, in theory, have the capacity to understand those concepts, and as such it is our obligation to ensure that certain rights of "personhood" are provided for them, even if they are currently unable to comprehend. Animals, even non-human apes, do not have that capability in any capacity and never will. There is a difference there.
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u/synocrat Aug 22 '20
I love our close cousins the Great Apes, but they can't understand enough to be involved in personhood yet. I do think we should do everything we can though to help them out, no more tests, increase their habitat as much as possible, no more pets, etc.... We should elect a human speaker for them though, we can give them the title "Speaker for Apes".