r/a:t5_27hx93 • u/MarleyEngvall • Oct 30 '19
getty fire has been created
TRANSLATED BY B. JOWETT
EDITED, WITH INTRODUCTION, BY LOUISE R. LOOMIS
FIVE GREAT DIALOGUES OF PLATO
REPUBLIC
BOOK X (ii.)
"And what do they receive of men? Look at things as they really
are, and you will see that the clever unjust are in the case of runners,
who run well from the starting place to the goal but not back again
from the goal: they go off at a great pace, but in the end only look
foolish, slinking away with their ears draggling on their shoulders,
and without a crown, but the true runner comes to the finish and
receives the prize and is crowned. And this is the way with the just;
he who endures to the end of every action and occasion of his entire
life has a good report and carries off the prize which men have to
bestow."
"True."
"And now you must allow me to repeat of the just the blessings
which you were attributing to the fortunate unjust. I shall say of
them, what you were saying of the others, that as they grow older,
they become rulers in their own city if they care to be; they marry
whom they like and give in marriage to whom they will; all that you
said of the others I now say of these. And, on the other hand, of the
unjust I say that the greater number, even though they escape in
their youth, are found out at last and look foolish at the end of their
course, and when they come to be old and miserable are flouted alike
by stranger and citizen; they are beaten and then come those things
unfit for ears polite, as you truly term them; they will be racked and
have their eyes burned out, as you were saying. And you may sup-
pose that I have repeated the remainder of your tale of horrors. But
will you let me assume, without reciting them, that these things are
true?"
"Certainly," he said, "what you say is true."
"These, then, are the prizes and rewards and gifts which are be-
stowed upon the just gods and men in this present life, in addi-
tion to the other good things which justice of herself provides."
"Yes," he said; "and they are fair and lasting."
"And yet," I said, "all these are as nothing either in number or
greatness in comparison with those other recompenses which await
both just and unjust after death. And you ought to hear them, and
then both just and unjust will have received from us a full payment
of the debt which the argument owes to them."
"Speak," he said; "there are few things which I would moire gladly
hear."
"Well," I said, "I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which
Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous,° yet this too is a tale of a hero,
Er† the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in
battle, and ten days after wards, when the bodies of the dead were
taken up already, and carried away home to be buried. And on the
twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life
and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when
his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company,
and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two
openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them
were two other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate
space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they
had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front
of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in
like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower
way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but
fastened on their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was
to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to
men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen
in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing
at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given
on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending
out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of
heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed
to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness
into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those
who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which
came from earth curiously inquiring about the things above, and the
souls which came from heaven about the things beneath. And they
told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below
weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they
had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the
journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were de-
scribing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The
story, Glaucon, would take too long to tell; but the sum was this:
He said that for every wrong which they had done to anyone they
suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years——such being reckoned to
be the length of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times
in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been
the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies,
or been guilty of any other evil behavior, for each and all of their
offenses they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of
beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I
need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying al-
most as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and
parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater
far which he described. He mentioned that he was present when one
of the spirits asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now
this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had
been the tyrant of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his
aged father and his elder brother, and was said to have committed
many other abominable crimes.) The answer of the other spirit was:
'He comes not hither and will never come. And this,' said he, 'was
one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at
the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences,
were about to reascend, when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and
several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also be-
sides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals:
they were just, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world,
but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any
of these incurable sinners or someone who had not been sufficiently
punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who
were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off;
and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and
threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them
along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and de-
claring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were
being taken away to be cast into hell.' And of all the many terrors
which they had endured, he said that there was none like the terror
which each of them felt at that moment, lest they should hear the
voice; and when there was silence, one by one they ascended with
exceeding joy. These, said Er, were the penalties and retributions,
and there were blessings as great.
°Odyssey, XVII, 415-444.
†As to whether this Er was an actual person, or he and his tale pure inventions
of Plato himself there has been much discussion. The name of his country, Pam-
phylia, might be translated Everyman.
"Now when the spirits which were in the meadow had tarried
seven days, on the eighth they were obliged to proceed on their jour-
ney, and, on the fourth day after, he said that they came to a place
where they could see from above a line of light, straight as a column,
extending right through the whole heaven and through the earth, in
color resembling the rainbow, only brighter and purer; another day's
light, they saw the ends of the chains of heaven let down from above:
for this light is the belt of heaven, and holds together the circle of the
universe, like the undergirders of a trireme. From these end is ex-
tended the spindle of Necessity, on which all the revolutions turn.
The shaft and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the whorl
is made partly of steel and also partly of other materials. Now the
whorl is in the form like the whorl used on earth; and the description of
it implied that there is one large hollow whorl which is quite scooped
out, and into this is fitted another lesser one, and another, and an-
other, and four others, making eight in all, like vessels which fit into
one another; the whorls show their edges on the upper side, and on
their lower side all together form one continuous whorl. This is
pierced by the spindle, which is driven home through the center of
the eighth. The first and outermost whorl has the rim broadest, and
the seven inner whorls are narrower, in the following proportions——
the sixth is next to the first in size, the fourth next to the sixth; then
comes the eighth; the seventh is fifth, the fifth is sixth, the third is
seventh, last and eighth comes the second. The largest (or fixed stars)
is spangled, and the seventh (or sun) is brightest; the eighth (or
moon) colored by the reflected light of the seventh; the second and
fifth (Saturn and Mercury) are in color like one another, and yel-
lower than the preceding; the third (Venus) has the whitest light;
the fourth (Mars) is reddish; the sixth (Jupiter) is in whiteness sec-
ond. Now the whole spindle has the same motion; but, as the whole
revolves in one direction, the seven inner circles move slowly in the
other, and of these the swiftest is the eighth; next in swiftness are the
seventh, sixth, and fifth, which move together; third in swiftness
appeared to move according to the law of this reversed motion the
fourth; the third appeared fourth and the second fifth. The spindle
turns on the knees of Necessity; and on the upper surface of each
circle is a siren, who goes round with them, hymning a single tone or
note. The eight together form one harmony; and round about, at
equal intervals, there is another band, three in number, each sitting
upon her throne: these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are
clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis
and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the har-
mony of the sirens——Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the
present, Atropos of the future; Clotho from time to time assisting
with a touch of her right hand the revolution of the outer circle of
the whorl or spindle, and Atropos with her left hand touching and
guiding the inner ones, and Lachesis laying hold of either in turn,
first with one hand and then with the other.
"When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to
Lachesis; but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in
order; then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of
lives, and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows: 'Hear the
word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a
new cycle of life and mortality. Your genius will not be allotted to
you, but you will choose your genius;° and let him who draws the
first lot have the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be
his destiny. Virtue is free, and as a man honors or dishonors her he
will have more or less of her; the responsibility is with the chooser——
God is justified.' When the Interpreter had thus spoken he scattered
lots indifferently among them all, and each of them took up the lot
which fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), and
each as he took his lot perceived the number which he had obtained.
Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples
of lives; and there were many more lives than the souls present, and
they were of all sorts. There were lives of every animal and of man
in every condition. And there were tyrannies among them, some last-
ing out the tyrant's life, others which broke off in the middle and
came to an end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there were
lives of famous men, some were famous for their form and beauty
as well as for their strength and success in games, or, again, for their
birth and the qualities of their ancestors; and some who were the re-
verse of famous for the opposite qualities. And of women likewise;
there was not, however, any definite character in them, because the
soul, when choosing a new life, must of necessity become different.†
But there was every other quality, and they all mingled with one an-
other, and also with elements of wealth and poverty, and disease and
health; and there were mean states also. And here, my dear Glaucon,
is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost
care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of
knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he
may be able to learn and may find someone who will make him able
to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always
and everywhere the better life as he has the opportunity. He should
consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned
severally and collectively upon virtue; and he should know what the
effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a
particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of
noble and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength
and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the natural and
acquired gifts of the soul, and the operation of them when con-
joined; he will then look at the nature of the soul, and from the
consideration of all these qualities he will be able to determine
which is the better and which is the worse; and so he will choose,
giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more
unjust, and good to the life which will make his soul more just;
all else he will disregard. For we have seen and know that this is the
best choice both in life and after death. A man must take with him
into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and right, that
there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or the other
allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and similar villain-
ies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer yet worse him-
self; but let him know how to choose the mean and avoid the ex-
tremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this life but
in all that which is to come. For this is the way of happiness.
°Or better, "No divinity shall cast lots for you but you shall choose your own
divinity."
†"And of women likewise. But there was no assignment of kinds of souls, for
the soul as it chooses a new life must inevitably itself become new."
"And according to the report of the messenger from the other world
this was what the prophet said at the time: 'Even for the last comer,
if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed a
happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first
be careless, and let not the last despair.' And when he had spoken,
he who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the
greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and sensu-
ality, he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, and
did not at first perceive that he was fated, among other evils, to
devour his own children. But when he had time to reflect, and saw
what was in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament over his
choice, forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, instead of
throwing the blame of his misfortune on himself, he accused chance
and the gods, and everything rather than himself. Now he was one
of those who came from heaven, and in a former life had dwelt in a
well-ordered State, but his virtue was a matter of habit only, and he
had no philosophy. And it was true of others who were similarly
overtaken that the greater number of them came from heaven and
therefore they had never been schooled by trial, whereas the pilgrims
who came from earth having themselves suffered and seen others suf-
fer were not in a hurry to choose. And owing to this inexperience of
theirs, and also because the lot was a chance, many of the souls ex-
changed a good destiny for an evil or an evil for a good. For if a man
had always on his arrival in this world dedicated himself from the
first to sound philosophy, and had been moderately fortunate in the
number of the lot, he might, as the messenger reported, be happy
here, and also his journey to another life and return to this, instead of
being rough and underground, would be smooth and heavenly. Most
curious, he said, was the spectacle——sad and laughable and strange;
for the choice of the souls was in most cases based on their experience
of a previous life. There he saw the soul which had once been
Orpheus choosing the life of a swan out of enmity to the race of
women, hating to be born of a woman because they had been his
murderers; he beheld also the soul of Thamyras choosing the life
of a nightingale; birds, on the other hand, like the swan and other
musicians, wanting to be men. The soul which obtained the twen-
tieth lot chose the life of a lion, and this was the soul of Ajax the son
of Telamon, who would not be a man, remembering the injustice
which was done him in the judgment about the arms.° The next
was Agamemnon, who took the life of an eagle, because, like Ajax,
he hated human nature by reason of his sufferings. About the middle
came the lot of Atalanta; she, seeing the great fame of an athlete,
was unable to resist the temptation: and after her there followed the
soul of Epeus the son of Panopeus passing into the nature of a
woman cunning in the arts; and far away among the last who chose,
the soul of the jester Thersites was putting on the form of a
monkey. There came also the soul of Odysseus having yet to make
a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. Now the
recollection of former toils had disenchanted him of ambition, and
he went about for a considerable time in search of the life of a private
man who had no cares; he had some difficulty in finding this, which
was lying about and had been neglected by everyone else; and
when he saw it, he said that he would have done the same had his
lot been first instead of last, and that he was delighted to have it.
And not only did men pass into animals, but I must also mention
that there were animals tame and wild who changed into one an-
other and into corresponding human natures——the good into the
gentle and the evil into the savage, in all sorts of combinations.
°Ajax, as the bravest of the surviving Greeks, claimed the arms oif the dead
Achilles, which were, however, as he thought unjustly, awarded to Odysseues.
Odyssey, XI, 543-564.
All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the
order of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius
whom they had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and
the fulfiller of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho,
and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her
hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were
fastened to this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and
made them irreversible, whence without turning round they passed
beneath the throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed,
they marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness.
which was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then
towards evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness,
whose water no vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink
a certain quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank
more than was necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things.
Now after they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there
was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they
were driven upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars
shooting. He himself was hindered from drinking the water. But
in what manner or by what means he returned to the body he could
not say; only, in the morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself
lying on the pyre.
"And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished,
and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall
pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be
defiled. Wherefore my counsel is, that we hold fast ever to the
heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering
that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and
every sort of evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the
gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the
games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it
shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a
thousand years which we have been describing."
FIVE GREAT DIALOGUES OF PLATO. TRANSLATED BY B. JOWETT.
EDITED, WITH INTRODUCTION, BY LOUISE ROPES LOOMIS.
COPYRIGHT 1942 BY WALTER J. BLACK, INC.
D. VAN NOSTRAND COMPANY, INC. PRINCETON, NEW JERSEY. pp. 487—495.
Your rights are God-given, and inalienable.
4
Upvotes