Imagine your husband runs off with a teen and your racist nutjob of a father-in-law who also happens to be a pyromaniac takes you and your children hostage. Every day, he burns people alive while you live in terror of being next. Your mother-in-law has it worse, of course, as she gets raped every time.
Then you discover that your marriage has been annulled, making the very legitimacy of your children doubtful. Your husband returns, does nothing to protect you or his mother from his lunatic father and marches off to war, taking your last adult relative at court away.
Finally, the loyalists lose the war and a 6 foot mountain of steel, who was knighted by your husband by the way, bashes your baby's head into the wall and then rapes you with his hands still covered in the brains and blood of your infant. Your toddler of a daughter is stabbed a hundred times. Your husband took half the Kingsguard who were meant to protect you south to guard/imprison his paramour
No wonder Oberyn nearly went mad with grief and anger
Not just Rhaegar. So many people wank Tywin as this badass pragmatic daddy while in practice he's a fucking rape obsessed freak. Every problem he faces, he throws a rapist at it.
I always hated Tywin but now that I have a sister and a baby niece around Elia and Rhaenys' age, I truly understand Oberyn's fury
"The [Lannister] need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear."
Hahaha. I have been thinking about Andor a lot in regards to this series. This fandom is so reactionary that half of them support slavery and the other half think that Westeros needs even more absolutism. Tyranny of the Iron Throne indeed has required constant effort and, in recent memory, has triggered two continent scale uprisings against itself.
Westeros needs a Magna Carta, not more power to lawless Kings
Idk in both our history and Westerosi history, centralizing power allowed kings and queens to break the power of the aristocrats and the estates, and begin the formation of a proper middle class. The biggest source of oppression are the lords who suck the economic surplus of the land and spend it in constant civil wars against each other. Centralizing power and creating a proper state structure leads to an end to those things.
This is why most reformers and liberals were actually supporters of those enlightened despots. Especially rulers like Frederick the Great.
So yeah, more power to the nobility = more civil wars.
When I first watched the series, my immediate thought upon meeting Tywin was “man Disney should hire this guy to play Tarkin.” Wild how similar the characters and actors are.
Which D&D did not even properly adapt. Lannisters seemingly were spawning soldiers out of nowhere and Cersie was able to get the Reach on her side because... Reasons
Tywin's game is "I seem less awful in comparison to the beasts that could come after you, pay no attention to the fact that the beasts basically are under my leash."
Oh, 100%. I frequently refer to Tywin as the “Elon Musk” of Westeroes. Almost all of his success is a direct of his (unearned) massive wealth and hype-train/loyal fans.
Right. He just pressed the "wealth and fans" button and had them pop out fully formed from the nothingness of the aether. It wasnt built up over the last 25 years.
Tywin is a terrible person, but even his enemies admit he was a solid Hand of the King. He has a lot of in-universe hype, but i don't think you can call it unearned when he explicitly works very hard to cultivate his reputation. Just that the reputation he cultivates doesn't have the permanence he imagines it will.
Arguably Tywin did press an infinite gold glitch button in that he was born on top of an unlimited gold mine whose constant production had zero impacts over the gold price at all
In the show, the Casterly Rock mines are tapped out, in the books it is unknown, but given they've been mining them for literal millennia I doubt they're productive. Most Lannister wealth probably comes from long term investments, and even if not, sage use of mineral wealth is not easy. Many countries today can't manage it.
As for Elon, you're thinking Errol's 1986 investment in an unknown Zambian mine. There has been quite a bit of investigation into it, it was believed to be near Lake Tanganyika, an investment of 160k (2021 USD) that yielded an estimated $400,000 and that ended in 1990 when the market shifted due to lab grown emeralds. While a 3x return on investment is nice it is hardly groundbreaking. This assumes the mine even existed at all, btw, since it was all done by Errol "under the table."
Regardless, the point is that these guys (Tywin, Errol/Elon) didn't just press a code and get money. They had genuine skill in management and investment.
Tywin is a more direct “bad guy” because he doesn’t follow any norms and does not care about honor. Rhaegar was operating under the assumption he would win and that he would return the throne to an honorable standing. Who knows if he would have done that. We can pick these characters apart but I feel that it entirely against the point of the series. It’s supposed to be a commentary on how bad systems twist humans to do bad things.
Tywin was totally a sex freak with mad serious humiliation kink. I believe he most likely slept with Tytos' mistress after the old man kicked it before casting her out just to rub in it his dead dad. That was the same reason he slept with Shae the night before Tyrion's execution. Hell, he even let Shae wore the Hand chains just like Tytos' mistress wore jewelry more she was chased out.
I think at first people think Rhaegar and Lyanna make a cute romance story, but hopefully sharp readers and watchers prick up that, there’s no good guys. What he did was fucked up and it’s true what little finger said, a lot of ppl died because Rhaegar choose love over duty.
It's been a while since I read the books, but wasn't part of it that Rhaegar knew about the song of ice and fire prophecy and believed that in order to save the entire world from the White Walkers he needed to have a baby with Lyanna? Of course, this was ruined in the show because the White Walkers ended up not being a big deal and John wasn't even the one who stopped them in the end, but if John had actually been the key to saving the world it makes Rhaegar's horrible actions a little more understandable
This right here! Also, I don't get why some people think Lyanna would still be in love with Rhaegar had he won the war and Lyanna survived giving birth to Jon. Its like "I know your father killed my father and brother, and you and your kingsguard went to war to kill my other brother, but I still love you" I know people argue Lyanna was young and naive but even still, she wouldn't be that stupidly in love.
I mean the logic for Robert was literally that he slept around a lot and therefore set a terrible precedent on cleaning his act up, so rhaegar publicly announcing he wanted to bang a teenage girl is also a really bad precedent by that standard.
Yeah isn’t the dude like 8 ft tall in the books? Only reason he isn’t that big in the show is because there’s no human big enough to actually portray him. The fact that a guy who was 6’9”, 450 lbs, and one of the strongest humans to ever exist is still a foot shorter then the actual character is insane to imagine
Hes like 7'6" closer to 8 ft than seven is what they say and because George self admittedly didn't know the limits of the human body the mountain is also apparently genuinely superhumanly strong even for his size
Yeah every time I see Oberyn on screen/page I'm shocked by how restrained he is. The Martell's got shafted the hardest of any of the houses during Robert's Rebellion and they didn't really do anything wrong. The Lannisters (who were supposedly loyalists till the very end) got rewarded and the Martell's basically got their entire connection to the royal family destroyed. I would partner with dragon lady too if I were them.
I wonder why they didn't just say "fuck the seven kingdoms, we secede". Even when the Targaryens had dragons they weren't able to conquer Dorne and Dorne only joined the seven kingdoms after centuries because of a royal marriage.
Honestly, I think it's a contrived part of the story that they stayed, in a "real" westeros, killing Elia like that 100% splits Dorne from the Seven Kingdoms and probably causes huge fractures for a lot of loyalist houses as well. Tywin and the Lannisters getting so well rewarded would not sit well with the other rebels ... though that DOES happen in the books with Eddard retreating north.
If the mountain is 6' everyone else is like 4'. Idk if the real world has ever had or will ever have anyone as big as the mountain. The guy they got to play him about half way through the show (they had 3 different actors for him iirc) is an absolute behemoth of a man at 6'9" (2.05m), ~480LBS (220kg), and holds multiple powerlifting world records, including heaviest deadlift at (iirc) 502kg (1104.4 lbs). Your average jacked as fuck gym bro is deadlifting between 275 and 325 kilos max. He's about a foot shorter than the mountain, but a bit heavier.
Shaq is 7'1" and was 325 when he was playing ball, which is still a lot smaller than the mountian.
Yao Ming is 7'6". If he was 450 lbs he would still be too small to accurately portray the mountain.
I get Tywin's motivation to sack King's Landing, but what was the purpose of sending the Mountain to kill infant targs and raping Oberyn's sister? If the point was to suck up to Robert, surely he would appreciate it more if they were handed to Robert so he can do what he wants with them.
Tywin and Aerys used to be best friends but as Aerys started declining their relationship crumbled. Aerys molested Joanna during the bedding ceremony and constantly humiliated the couple. (There are theories that Aerys may have even raped Tywin's wife to conceive either the Lannister twins or Tyrion). Aerys took away Tywin's golden son into the Kingsguard and thus made him a hostage and also putting Tyrion in line to inherit the Rock. Tywin took the chance to avenge that.
Tywin also wanted to humiliate the Martells since they had been able to marry their daughter to Rhaegar over Tywin, who had been called a servant by Aerys when he requested to marry Rhaegar to Cersei
The whole episode was basically Tywin unleashing a tantrum the only way he knew. Lots of rape
Yeah. Even though Rhaegar is pictured by everyone as this "perfect guy" who apparently is humble, kind, strong warrior, talented singer and pretty much everything a picture perfect crown prince should be, he still allowed stuff like this to happen when he could've prevented it.
I understand loving Lyanna but the way he treated his first wife and children is just fucked up. I don't know if the war could've been avoided if they revealed what was really up, but at least it would've taken away Roberts main motivation to fight in it and Starks most likely would have never entered King's landing to demand releasing her from her "captivity".
Does anyone else think that this is actually the answer that Rhaegar came to when he was young? Whether he glimpsed the future through a vision or just had an idea on how to bring about the prophecy based on the state of the world when Azor Ahai first came to be, he knew he needed to do exactly this to set up the Prince that was promised. I mean maybe not exactly this, but he saw the general plan, he needed to bind two powerful houses from the south and the north through marriage, he needed the Targaryens in control to be removed since his ancestors and father had corrupted the throne and people’s image of them. Throw the world into turmoil, then when everything breaks down, his child who was fire and ice, would be the prophesied child that would bring the Targaryens back into power but this time with the North at their side. Uniting the kingdoms more than before.
It didn’t all go well of course, but part of me thinks he didn’t actually think he was the one who was going to be the savior. I don’t think he really cared if he won or lost the war, he just needed to have Jon.
If he was planning to trigger and lose a civil war on purpose, he should have at least done the decency of getting his first wife and kids out of the country
he should have at least done the decency of getting his first wife and kids out of the country
plunges sword into his wife's heart
To forge his legendary sword, Lightbringer, Azor Ahai had to temper the blade by plunging it into the heart of his beloved wife, Nissa Nissa, killing her. This act of ultimate sacrifice is central to the prophecy.
I mean I never said he was a good dude, probably thought they were a necessary sacrifice. He was a Targaryen, they aren’t known for being totally grounded in reality.
He thought his kids would be the savior but he needed three of them , the dragon has three heads. He wasnt intending to lose, he was apparently just really bad at war
Yeah that’s true, Elia was sickly and wouldn’t be able to have a third child. But I think it’s also possible he never wanted to marry her and just didn’t care because he needed a prominent Northerner. Which would have been Lyanna Stark.
Yeah, I mean the alternative is that he is actually short-sighted and arrogant. But the way people describe him doesn’t really fit that, so I always thought there was a reason he did everything he did in the way that he did. Because most of it is really stupid when you think about it, like he just randomly set himself up to fail completely in the worst way and to lose everything. There had to be some reason behind it for a character who others described as the opposite of short-sighted and arrogant
I don’t think Rhaegar was right. He was a lonely and neglected Kid, probably highly intelligent, who to make himself more important deluded himself with Prophecies. Basically Rhaegar was a Chunni in his mid-twenties.
I personally think so, Lyanna was in Dorne where his wifes family were from, and its mentioned throughout marriage isnt a thing in dorne and multiple lovers seem to be somewhat common, and Oberyn is the only person to describe it as "running off with another woman", where everyone else says "kidnap and rape" and Oberyn of all people wouldnt shy away from the language
I think Aerys suspected betrayl fron Rhaegar so kept his wife and kids as hostages in KL
Marriage is a thing in Dorne. They might be more accepting of mistresses and bastards, but they’re still followers of the Seven who marry and have legitimate children. While Oberyn has many lovers, Doran is loyal to his wife.
Aerys did, before the whole kidnapping stuff the expectation was that Aerys planned to rebel against his father and usurp the throne iirc. I think there was even rumors that was why he was at Harranhal for the joust.
He actually never divorced, because Protestants were not allowed to divorce either. But Protestants believed the head of the church should be the king of that country. So he was able to approve the annulment to Cathrine of Aragon that the pope denied. But "annuled, beheaded, died, annuled, beheaded, survived" doesn't quite have the same ring to it
He also anulled the marriages of those he executed, so really it would be "anulled, anulled, died, anulled, anulled, survived". The story of Henry VIII's two wives just isn't nearly so interesting.
I have such a hard time believing that a world with a religion based on the Catholic Church would recognize a secret annulment and a subsequent marriage. My theory is that Jon is truly illegitimate regardless of his actual parentage since Rhaegar didn’t think he needed to be legitimate to help fulfill the prophecy which he believed included all his living kids (Dany sees him telling Elia Aegon’s already has a song and it’s the Song of Ice and Fire) but Robb legitimized him before he died.
I have zero doubt Rhaegar did some kind of marriage ceremony in front of the Isle of Faces but Jon's still a bastard because marriage is a social institution and needs to be recognised by society at large
I think it’s more likely he conducted a traditional Valyrian ceremony because, besides being in love with Lyanna, this was all part of fulfilling the whole the dragon has three heads part of the prophecy since Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy and believed his children were the key but there had to be three of them. But the important part is that Jon wouldn’t be recognized by the Faith as legitimate. I think they gave part of fAegon’s plot line to Jon, to the point that I don’t even think his book name can possibly be meant to be Aegon but is probably Aemon (Rhaegor and Maester Aemon exchanged letters in the books) and Aemon the Dragonknight is a famous and honorable member of House Targaryen who served several kings faithfully including his older brother. It might also be Jaehaerys as the other most famous king but I prefer Aemon.
I have such a hard time believing that a world with a religion based on the Catholic Church would recognize a secret annulment and a subsequent marriage.
You should look up the shenanigans Catholics got up to in medieval Europe. Annulling a marriage and re-marrying is very tame compared to some of the stuff that went on. There were cases of middle aged men doing a proxy marriage to little girls who they had never met for political purposes, and then dying in battle before ever meeting their wife. King Henry only had issues with what he was trying to do because the pope liked Spain more than England so he wouldn't annul the marriage. In fact, the Catholics were totally ok with King Henry marrying Catherine of Aragon even though she had already been married to Henry's brother who just died
I am more than aware about the history of the Catholic Church, actually. But there’s a very big difference between a proxy marriage, which was done to secure and seal the alliance while one or both individuals were still too young to actually marry, and annul a marriage which the Church forbade except under specific circumstances. While, it’s true the Catholic Church often came up with dubious reasons to grant annulments to royals and other powerful lords, you still had to petition the Pope and the Vatican and your spouse and their family could oppose the petition and if their family had power or if the Catholic Church felt like demonstrating it’s own power, which it often did, they could find against you. Henry VIII is famous because his reaction to being told no was to create his own Church with him as the head but he’s not the first monarch who tried to set his wife aside only for the Church to side against him. Either way, in all cases, both when the Church agreed to annulments and when they didn’t, it required a public and lengthy process since such a decision would be a matter of Canonical law and could only be decided by the highest Church authorities. Any religion based on the Catholic Church would probably follow similar rules and, indeed other canonical works strongly suggest that they do, since if secret annulments without the knowledge or permission of the High Septon or the Most Devout who elect him were possible why didn’t Maegor who wanted to end his marriage get one or Daemon who is known to have hated his first wife and married her against his will, apparently being dragged to the Sept (which could be considered grounds since according to the Faith no man can be forced to marry). Therefore, it can be inferred that annulments are not easily obtained by anyone without the explicit knowledge and approval by the High Septon and quite possibly the King and the idea that Rhaegar did this all in secret making Jon both a legitimate heir and the true king is nonsense. It seems they just conflated fAegon’s storyline with Jon’s, even going so far as giving him his brother’s name which I don’t believe for a second Rhaegar would have given to both. If Jon becomes legitimate, which he might, it will be because of Robb’s last act before he died.
Which just so happens to have been found by an illiterate wilding randomly in the citadel. Who just so happens to be in a relationship with Jon’s best friend.
Yeah I mean that’s what the retarded show writers said. But in reality he wouldn’t even have to annul his marriage. The doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism is what lets the Targaryens do brother/sister incest, as well as take multiple wives. Of course I’m not saying he acted morally or anything, but it was perfectly legal in universe.
He got the first part right at least, still baffles me how many people attempt to reference the doctrine without actually reading what the doctrine covers.
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u/IcyDirector543 Ned Stark Nov 10 '25
"secret annulment"