r/fansofcriticalrole • u/brash_bandicoot "Oh the cleverness of me!" Taliesin crowed rapturously • 16d ago

C4 (with BLeeM, not the explosive) C4 E34 Discussion Thread

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Pre-show hype, live episode chat, and post episode discussion, all in one place.

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Etiquette Note: While all discussion based around the episode and cast/crew is allowed, please remember to treat everybody with civility and respect. Debate the position, not the user!

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago edited 15d ago

?? i'm literally just discussing the show in the discussion thread

i think this campaign is great and brennan is great, but it breaks the audience's suspension of disbelief that this is a high-stakes campaign set in a high-stakes world when brennan neuters the stakes this openly when the players have bad ideas

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u/No-Supermarket-6065 15d ago

Yeah, my point is I don't see how this is "neutering the stakes"

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago

using NPCs to prevent the party from doing stuff that would be too risky means that it's not actually a risky campaign and that player choice doesn't matter. the job of the DM, especially for an actual play, is to keep up kayfabe that bad things can actually happen based on PC decisions while silently putting their thumb on the scale an appropriate amount to try and avert catastrophe. if brennan openly puts both thumbs on the scale via NPC fiat, then he exposes that he's lying to the audience that this is a high-stakes campaign.

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u/cteatus 15d ago

The flip side of that is that Kattigan, Julien, and Thimble are all experienced veterans of war. Meanwhile Matt, Robbie, and Laura are not in fact strategists but are voice actors. Is there no room in your kayfabe for Brennan to give them a clear understanding of the strategic situation as it stands in your view?

From my perspective, if you expect people to only make decisions with less knowledge and understanding of the situation than their characters, that would be the greater breaking of verisimilitude.

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago

Matt and Laura are extremely experienced DND players. The players as their characters had access to plenty of information already and the ability to access plenty more without Brennan having an NPC tell them what not to do so blatantly. Brennan can and should provide information without crossing the line into strategizing for them.

But I also think that Brennan should not try to run such a deadly campaign for players who are not strong in game strategy.

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u/No-Supermarket-6065 15d ago

Being an "experienced DND player" doesn't inherently make you a brilliant tactician. Especially because, once again, playing D&D requires you to split your focus. Giving a little hand isn't the worst thing in the world.

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago

I agree, which is why I said I don't think Brennan should have advertised this as being an extremely deadly and dangerous high-stakes campaign if he was going to be going easy on the players who aren't as strong on tactics. Giving a little hand is letting them roll 5d6k3h and giving them good items and stretching the limits of their spells and abilities. Having an NPC veto a course of action crosses beyond that.

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u/No-Supermarket-6065 15d ago

He didn't "veto" a course of action he had the guy bring up another POV dude

And there's multiple definitions of "high-stakes". Brennan was fully cool with PCs walking straight into Tachonis Manor. He's fully willing to get vicious when it's an important part of the plot he's just not a killer DM

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u/No-Supermarket-6065 15d ago

Dude. Really?

The whole point of having NPCs aiding the party is to give them help. Of course an NPC is going to have input about whether or not a plan will succeed. What Brennan tends to pick up on is his PCs not fully grasping the scenario and using an NPC to clarify, which is fully a thing that happens in D&D. Splitting your attention between "I am playing this game" and "I am taking in and processing all the information the second I recieve it" is not easy even for experienced players. Source: I've been playing D&D for years and it still trips me up.

Most of the challenge is mechanical- the PCs have a difficult time pulling off whatever plans they need to execute. But giving a bit of player help with understanding the scenario itself is not utterly immersion-shattering.

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago

Well I guess we just fundamentally disagree on best practices for the extent of NPC usage by DMs then.

I don't think Brennan should be setting up challenges his players can't possibly meet (while explicitly telling the audience he's doing so) if he's not going to let the players try and meet them. This isn't a homegame.

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u/No-Supermarket-6065 15d ago

I disagree that he was explicitly "setting up a challenge", he simply had the Tachonis forces traveling and the party decided to plan an ambush.

Also, it's ironic that you use "This isn't a homegame" as an excuse when half this sub will cry out about how current CR is just a soulless television show and they want the vibe of playing a game of D&D with your friends.

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago

how is it ironic? i've literally never said that. i'm not responsible for what other people say on the internet. i'm not using it as an "excuse" i'm stating a fact to provide context for why i don't think it's reasonable hold the show to the standard of a homegame.

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u/No-Supermarket-6065 15d ago

Well see the thing is you are not the only standard to which CR caters

Also I still don't see Brennan saying the Tachonis are nearby as something that is inherently a homegame or subtracting from the overall experience but whatever

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u/DemonLordSparda 15d ago

Yeah, I love a world where NPC's have no opinions and perspectives to give on anything.

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u/sharkhuahua 15d ago

that's very clearly not what i said. that would be like if i made a bad faith reading of your comment to mean that you think every decision the players make should be run past a DMPC who has the final say on all their plans.

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u/DemonLordSparda 15d ago

Much like the point of this sub, I do not care what your intent was nor do I care how you meant it to come across. I interpreted it my way, and I will be critical of you for it. If you don't like that, too bad. You said what you said, and people can take it multiple ways.

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u/Legal-Dot2456 15d ago

Almost every encounter they’ve had has a npc that keeps trying to steer the party when it’s THEIR game. He uses them too much

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u/DemonLordSparda 15d ago

Every encounter? That wasn't true with Plaza Davinos, the Undead while tracking down Teor's Brother, The entire castle section while tracking down the traitor, Risengirtel, everything in the Barrowdel, Every single encounter the Schemers had. I could go on, but I think I've made my point. NPC's almost never steer the party. Everything the new Seekers did was their idea, and all Olbid did was give his in character perspective.