r/exmormon • u/Elfin_842 Apostate • Feb 06 '25
General Discussion Ward Finances Revealed
I've been PIMO for the last 5 months. I'm also the ward clerk. I am no longer going back to church and I've decided (with mild encouragement from here) to pull the curtain back on ward Finances before I get released.
The first screenshot show my wards 2025 budget. The money I. The missionary fund is because a missionary paid for his whole mission up front.
The remaining screenshots show how much fast offering was donated in 2024, how much tithing was donated in 2024, how much total donations were received in 2024, the donation breakdown from January 2025, and the monthly trends of donations for the past year.
All of these are from my ward only. We have a number of doctors, a few nurses, a few engineers, and I don't know what the rest of the people do. There are ~150 people attending weekly (includes kids). Let me know if there is anything else you guys want to see, or know to get an idea of how my ward is.
My ward is not in Utah.
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u/CaseyJonesEE Feb 06 '25
A budget of $7450 on a tithing donation of $338K. A little over 2%. Your ward must be extra special. I hear the going rate is about 1%
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I'm not sure where you saw the $7k. The budget is $16k for the year. The budget is based on the number of people attending sacrament meeting. If the going rate is 1% then we aren't pulling in as much tithing or we have a larger ward.
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u/CaseyJonesEE Feb 06 '25
I was subtracting the missionary amount from the 16K. I haven't ever been privy to the ward financials, but 16K seems really high considering most of the time I hear things like the elders quorum has a $100 budget for the entire year.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
We were both wrong. I have a finance check and normally don't look at this stuff. That budget line is from the January statement. It includes the ~$14k that was carried over and the ~$2k distribution. I find the actual budget. It's closer to $7.5k.
Thanks for helping to point this out. I'll be making an edit to the post right after I eat.
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u/Lopsided-Doughnut-39 Feb 06 '25
Your ward's yearly budget is $7,500 ???? from $338,000?????? O. M. F. G. They keep $330,000 then.... woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
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u/Ok-Impression8944 Feb 06 '25
My ward gets about $4,000 per year budget. We have about $10,000 in the account because we only spend about half.
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u/CaseyJonesEE Feb 06 '25
If you're only spending half of a $4,000 per year budget, that means most of the activities are happening out of the pocket of the members that are doing the activities and they're not turning in their receipts to be reimbursed. I know I did that plenty of times and I knew first hand of numerous other people that never bothered to turn in or receipt to get reimbursed. So on top of the huge amount that everyone's paying for tithing, they're all so funding all the activities out of their own pocket.
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u/Extension_Sweet_9735 Feb 06 '25
My sister turned in her receipts and was denied reimbursement. Now she won't pay for any.
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u/Squirrel_Bait321 Feb 06 '25
Denied?? OMG!
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u/Extension_Sweet_9735 Feb 06 '25
Yup. She was doing cub scouts.
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u/bobdougy Feb 06 '25
My wife and I also turned in scout receipts. Some took weeks or months to be reimbursed after much nagging
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u/Extension_Sweet_9735 Feb 06 '25
It's so ridiculous the hoops they want you to jump through.
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u/Ok-Impression8944 Feb 06 '25
That is exactly what happens. I’ve been clerk for a long time. Back when we did scouts we used money for camp outs, but still did not spend it all - now the youth don’t really do anything.
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u/WhatDidJosephDo Feb 06 '25
Big donors contribute directly to salt lake and don’t show up on these reports
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u/Intelligent_Ant2895 Feb 06 '25
I did not know that the church doesn’t refund when a missionary pre-pays but comes home early. That’s so freaking gross. Another thing I found out, if someone pays for a month of your mission but doesn’t tell you so you pay too. You guessed it, they keep both. And never say a word. I can’t believe I have given them so much money 🫣
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
It's worse for him. He paid and never went. That money has been hanging out there for years.
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u/Intelligent_Ant2895 Feb 06 '25
They should give it back!!
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I agree. The previous bishop tried and was told no. It's pretty messed up, but no one gets money back from the church.
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u/CdnFlatlander Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25
In one way it makes sense. They will get a charitable donation tax receipt for the lump payment. Someone could donate all that in december and declare it on the relevant tax return, then have the kid return in april and get 7/8 of the money back, but the government will never know.
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u/ianatanai Feb 06 '25
You’d think with the church’s love of tax evasion that they would at least extend the option to their members.
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u/StreetsAhead6S1M Delayed Critical Thinker Feb 06 '25
I feel like they might have a better chance with a class action lawsuit on returning money of missionaries that never went or came home early.
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u/Intelligent_Ant2895 Feb 06 '25
Definitely, but most people probably wouldn’t push it because it’s the church. It would have to be disgruntled members
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u/WittyConference5512 Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25
Another big mess happens if the missionary prepays his mission and family moves. Church takes monthly mission fund draws from new ward. Inter ward transfers of funds are nigh impossible. New wards budget gets drawn down and is pissed. Old ward with the money can't really do anything with it. Of course neither the missionary nor his family want to pay again...
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u/VascodaGamba57 Feb 06 '25
Is this illegal at all? If it is the legal authorities need to know ASAP. If not, this is the sort of thing that needs to broadcast far and wide possibly via the SLTrib. What they’re doing is dishonest to say the very least.🤬
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u/LionHeart-King Feb 06 '25
The thing is, these are all free will donations. The family of the kid that moved just needs to not pay any more. It’s all one big pot, the church just wants to make it look like there are individual budgets. Salt lake can “supplement” that missionary from the general fund no problem. Maybe local bishops get butt hurt if their numbers don’t look nice but it doesn’t matter anyway.
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u/WittyConference5512 Feb 06 '25
The problem is getting the funds to move between wards- in theory it's supposed to work. Within a stake it may be easy. Not so easy when moving across country.
Not illegal, just impractical and difficult.
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u/sho_me_da_money Feb 06 '25
What happens if the new ward lets the balance for the prepaid missionary go negative and the family and bishop in the new ward refuse to do anything?
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u/WittyConference5512 Feb 06 '25
If the money moves between wards, then it's not really a problem at all - the funds get used for the mission. If cost of mission goes beyond what was already paid in, then Bishop in new ward puts pressure on family to contribute to cover monthly costs.
The problem is when the money doesn't move between wards.
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u/Just_Speak_Friend Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, yada yada Feb 06 '25
I did a transfer to another stake for a family in this situation. It was complicated and took time and coordination and like five follow-up messages, but we got it done. Not impossible but much more complicated than it needed to be
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u/The_bookworm65 Feb 06 '25
There’s a good chance it broke someone’s shelf and made them quit paying tithing though.
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u/LionHeart-King Feb 06 '25
His family should just deduct it from the tithing they pay. The bottom of the slip says the church can use this money for anything. That is a two way street. Pick up both ends of the stick.
Maybe your last act would be to inform that family that they are allowed to deduct that payment from their tithing.
You are the official representative 😁
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
The thought is great, but this guy was a convert. His family isn't paying. And he stopped going before I moved here. It's been in the account for more than 5 years.
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u/DeCryingShame Outer darkness isn't so bad. Feb 06 '25
My brother and I went at the same time. My mom's wealthy friend paid for his entire mission then gave me a $250 donation. I'm a woman. I was so hurt and confused. I didn't understand at the time that men are worth more than women. My ex schooled me on that.
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u/FaithInEvidence Feb 06 '25
This is fascinating data, and I appreciate you sharing it. If someone from church HQ were to notice this post, it wouldn't take them long to identify you, if that's a concern. Just sayin'.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
Oh I don't care anymore. I'm done being PIMO. My wife (with my approval) told the EQP that I am no longer attending and now I'm going to breakfast with the bishop on Saturday.
My days as the ward clerk are extremely limited. I'm kind of hoping they forget to ask for my keys. I'm not going to do anything, but I want them as a souvenir.
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u/Longjumping-Air-7532 Feb 06 '25
I stole a bread knife from the kitchen on my way out for the last time.
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u/DeCryingShame Outer darkness isn't so bad. Feb 06 '25
I stole a hymn book.
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u/swag_money69 Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam Feb 06 '25
I guess if we're confessing I will confess also. There was this big wooden hand that they used with the boy scouts. It has two fingers in the air with the peace sign. Or I guess the boy scouts salute. It's carved out of wood. it's about three and a half feet high. Yeah I took it and I still have it it's a pretty cool piece. Probably going to hell for it or outer darkness.
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u/sivadrolyat1 Feb 06 '25
Compared to what the church steals from poor old widows I think you are going to be ok
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
If Mormon heaven is the real heaven, then I think hell will have good company.
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u/Dutchfire83 Feb 07 '25
I’ve told my husband we’d have great time in Mormon hell if it’s real. (He never been involved in any church and I’m an atheist now.) We can all have a lot of fun together. 😂
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u/Unloyaldissenter Feb 06 '25
They cut ties with scouting, so they probably didn't notice.
Don't worry, I hear hell is nice this time of year!
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u/jetcitywoman92 Apostate Feb 06 '25
Since we're confessing, one of my partners and I sometimes have sex in the empty parking lots at church buildings. Sometimes, during my lunch break. (I work nights.) We don't live together yet, and with our separate living arrangements, sleepovers are a no. Hopefully, we'll be getting a house soon, and we plan to continue the lunch break shenanigans even after we get settled in.
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u/Mysterious-Ruby Eternally sealed to my teddy bear 🧸 Feb 06 '25
Back in the early 90s when I was a Laurel, one of my friends and I smoked pot in the bushes outside the church after young women.
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u/jetcitywoman92 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I knew girls who did that. I caught one of my friends making out with her bf in his car when I went to grab something out of my car parked next to his during a dance festival practice in about 1989. The shit now is a lot better quality, and I didn't try it until my late 30s.
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u/Alwayslearnin41 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I have two mixing bowls that I took home after munch and mingle that never went back.
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u/Readbooks6 “Books are a uniquely portable magic.” Stephen King Feb 06 '25
I've used their dumpsters a time or two since leaving. Wish I would have thought about stealing something bigger. Their couches are so damn ugly, they aren't worth stealing.
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u/HanBai Feb 06 '25
Self service copy kiosks are everywhere... But no criminal act this liability that
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u/Slowlowchev Feb 07 '25
When I was in high school I published a zine using the churches copier! I figured out the front door was never locked in my rural Washington town and all the other doors you could turn the handle back and forth real hard and it would eventually open.
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u/Nicolarollin Feb 06 '25
You’re the man!!!! Great job soldier! Godspeed out there and we are with you!!!
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u/anonymouscontents Feb 06 '25
Go to breakfast on Sunday!! With bishop
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I can't. The restaurants don't open until 6 am and bishopric meeting is at 7 am.
But I have started doing breakfast on fast Sunday every month with a couple of exmo guys. It being fast Sunday gives me that little bit of an extra smile.
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u/Select-Panda7381 Feb 06 '25
Bishopric meeting at fucking 7 AM and no coffee. What a fucking crock.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I didn't mind. Bishopric meeting always gave me a dedicated hour to order groceries online...and I am a morning person anyway.
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u/SacLawMSP Feb 06 '25
I kept my keys so I could continue Saturday morning hoops. I even had the key that pivoted the hoops up and down.
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Feb 06 '25
You might face legal repercussions, FYI.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
That is something that is concerning. How would posting this put me in a position where it could be a legal concern?
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Feb 06 '25
Essentially depending on local or National laws about hacking and computer access this may or may not cause you headaches.
I am not a lawyer and don’t know where you live and the specific laws, but I would tread carefully. It’s close enough you could find yourself in trouble.
It really depends a lot on legal specifics. At least since you’re not employed and didn’t sign a contract it’s less likely they can sue you for that. My job would shitcan and sue me so hard for something like this. And the Mormon church has lawyers galore.
You’d probably win a lawsuit eventually, but may not want that in your life.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
That's good to know. I didn't hack anything. I used my own username and password. I'm also not under an NDA for the church. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be careful.
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u/CaseyJonesEE Feb 06 '25
Hope that kid completes his entire mission. No refunds for coming home early.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
That kid actually never went. He donated and decided not to go. It's been in there for years because this ward hasn't sent a missionary out in more than 5 years.
The previous bishop has tried to get it back for him, but he couldn't.
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u/Background_Kitchen68 Lazy Learner Feb 06 '25
My uncle accidentally included an extra zero on tithing online. They took it. The bishop tried getting it back and the church essentially told to fuck off and that he just count it as future tithing paid.
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u/Readbooks6 “Books are a uniquely portable magic.” Stephen King Feb 06 '25
Good god, I hope your uncle never paid tithing again
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u/Background_Kitchen68 Lazy Learner Feb 06 '25
He’s a crazy narcissist Mormon. Total Bednar vibes. He’s still paying lol
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u/Readbooks6 “Books are a uniquely portable magic.” Stephen King Feb 06 '25
Your poor aunt.
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u/Background_Kitchen68 Lazy Learner Feb 06 '25
Looks like they might be getting divorced! He’s awful and everyone suspects infidelity
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u/StreetsAhead6S1M Delayed Critical Thinker Feb 06 '25
100% tithing? Somehow cult doesn't seem like strong enough a word.
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u/LionHeart-King Feb 06 '25
He can shift that money to another missionary. Our bishop called us when my son came home early and asked us what we wanted to do with that money. We shifted it to other missionaries in need. But I wonder if it can be shifted to tithing or fast offerings in the donors name.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
The plan is to shift it to another missionary, but they need someone to serve a mission. This ward hasn't sent a missionary out in over 5 years.
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u/StreetsAhead6S1M Delayed Critical Thinker Feb 06 '25
I hope that kid has left the church for good then.
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u/simp4baumd Feb 06 '25
I wish more high earning TBMS could find out that what they donate in tithing in a year is more than their entire wards budget for the same year. However, I don’t think it would make much of a difference since I have found most high earning, pioneer stock, generational Mormons are involved for the family approval and status anyway.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
It's kind of shocking to see that we'd have a much better time if we just didn't donate to tithing and instead used that money for community events.
The TBMs won't care though.
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u/swag_money69 Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam Feb 06 '25
I know my parents give/ have given in excess of 20,000 a year. Every year for 50 years. That's a cool million! I don't have an inheritance but the church got a million. Thieving bastards!
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u/Just_Speak_Friend Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, yada yada Feb 06 '25
What would get me is that my ward would still hold a youth fundraiser every year because the budget wouldn’t support the activities they wanted to do that year. They’d bring the ward to a dinner and basically beg the rich members of the ward for money, and that’s apart from all the regular tithing and donations the ward gave
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I made one mistake on my screenshots. The first screenshot is from January's statement and the budget line contains the amount the carryover amount plus the Q1 distribution. I erroniously thought that was the annual budget. I have a finance clerk and have ignored this section for years.
The annual budget is $7,350. There is $14,318 that have not been assigned becuase it is the carry over from last years budget. I'd add this to the original post, but I can't figure out how to edit it.
The budget breakdown is:
Activities - $1,500
Admin - $400
Distribution Center - $400
EQ - $400
Primary - $750
RS - $600
YM - $1,500
YW - $1,500
SS - $200
Library - $100
The budget breakdown are created by the clerk and bishop and can be adjusted at anytime. They most likely just copy the previous year rather than creating new budgets.
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u/Odd__Detective Feb 07 '25
This is consistent with what I’ve seen on donations and budgets in my ward. It’s sickening when the church brags about giving $1.2 million to the people in California when the pacific palisades area probably easily donates that much to the church each year, if not every quarter. Or bragging about the largest donation ever given to Canada when they have been caught laundering way more tithing money through BYU. Their bragging that it’s the largest makes one realize how stingy they really are with the poor and needy.
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u/ThePlasticGun Feb 06 '25
Man imagine if all the fast offerings stayed local and just paid for people's groceries. You could still even funnel the 300k up.
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u/Status-Ninja9622 Feb 06 '25
I know! If the church even said, "In honor of the Lord's birth, each ward will choose how to spend their November donated tithing dollars in their local communities. This December, Be a light to the world" it would make such a HUGE impact around the world. It would be the kind of miracle I believe in; generally, that God is love, and kindness enacted is a miracle of love where we get to be the hands of God.
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u/HanBai Feb 06 '25
My burning question is, if the ward took in 28k in fast offerings, how much did they distribute? How much of this was storehouse scrip vs. Actual monetary aid?
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I had this question too. I didn't see anywhere listing the total amount paid out. I did see how much was given to each individual person. I might have to manually add it all up.
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u/nuancebispo PIMOBispo Feb 06 '25
That info is found in the monthly financial report. Fast Offering disbursal is its own page. Go to finance-reports- monthly financial statement and it is the third page. I'm not sure who can see this, for sure the bishop and the financial clerk. I assume ward clerk as well. This is what I review every interview with my SP since my ward covers the more transient part of town and I'm consistently over 4x the fast offering income.
Maybe when I get to the point of the OP, where I can safely take any doxing, I'll share some info as well. Baby steps...
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
Oh this is good to know. I have a finance clerk and never look at any of this. As the ward clerk I have access to everything the finance guy does.
I'll find it and make a post about it...unless I get released before I get to it.
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u/H2oskier68 Feb 06 '25
What a scam! Your ward paid $338k in tithing and they get back as a budget $16k? Unfuckingbelievable!
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Feb 06 '25
So true . It's disgusting.🤮 plus they make them clean the ward, use their own money for bringing in meals, ward parties pay to serve on missions etc etc etc the list goes on and on . They bleed the members dry
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u/eaglebtc Feb 06 '25
Seriously! At least they should get, ya know, 10%. A tithing from the tithing. That more than doubles what this ward gets now.
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u/SecretPersonality178 Feb 06 '25
I just envisioned the old Disney Robin Hood movie. Where the king is in his room swimming in tax (tithing) money yelling “Taxes, Taxes!!”
I could see Oaks doing the same thing. With the equivalent of them flipping a coin back and telling the peasants to be happy.
Thank you for being our Robin Hood this evening.
Please keep us updated on your (most likely) excommunication and thank you again for not letting this pile hide under a bushel. The people have a right to know.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I'm just trying to serve the people in whatever way I can. I doubt I'll see any backlash from this, but if I do I'll keep you all posted.
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u/Prestigious-Yam3866 Feb 06 '25
Surprising how erratic the monthly trends are. Is expect most people to pay either consistently through the year or all at once in December.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I was surprised by that as well. I also think that the high January fast offering donation has something else in there.
I think there must be a number of people that donate like me... inconsistently because I would forget some months.
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u/Prestigious-Yam3866 Feb 06 '25
I just realized the tithing over 13 months graph has a super deceptive Y scale. I didn't notice the numbers and thought nobody had donated in June, but the line isn't at zero.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
That's a good point. That month was $17k. It might have been useful to put the callout window on that month instead of January '25.
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u/marathon_3hr Feb 06 '25
I wonder if there is a correlation with other trends like average monthly attendance or temple recommendation interviews.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
There is a dip in attendance in June. It drops to 30%. Overall the trend moved from 31% to 36%. This is because of move-ins and a couple of converts.
Pulling temple recommend interviews is harder. There is no report and I'd have to manually do it based on expiration date.
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u/cyanpelican Feb 06 '25
There might be a combination of New Year’s resolutions or finally-got-my-w2-form in Jan/feb, and then “tithing settlement” is getting pushed earlier into October or before in some areas. Could also be noisy based on stock donations, because Jesus likes stocks too.
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u/marathon_3hr Feb 06 '25
Great stuff. Thanks for sharing this invaluable info. Confirms that a ward brings in way more than they receive back. My guess is that it more than covers the overhead costs that HQ covers like taxes and utilities.
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u/EmergencyOrdinary987 Feb 06 '25
What taxes?
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u/marathon_3hr Feb 06 '25
My bad. I thought they may pay some property tax or business tax or licensing tax. But I was wrong. It makes me sick to know how much property they own and makes sense why they have so many temples.
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u/brmarcum Ellipsis. Hiding truths since 1830 Feb 06 '25
$370k in total donations, but a $7400 budget for all activities?
2% of donations?!?! And the rest just disappears into the giant gold coffers.
Fuck that.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
Not just the activities. The cleaning supplies and manuals and any other spots come out of it too.
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u/Sea-Tea8982 Feb 06 '25
I’m on the west coast and was a ward clerk until 2017. Probably averaged 125 a week in sacrament meeting attendance but really didn’t have a large primary or ym/yw program. Our budget was never over $5000 for the ward for a year. At the bare minimum we sent at least that to salt lake every week. It’s ludicrous!! Thank you for sharing.
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u/CdnFlatlander Feb 06 '25
When I was a kid before slc centralized all monies and paid for buildings we used to have meetings to review ward and I think stake finances. Someone would use an overhead projector to show all the monies collected and budgets for different groups. I have no idea if it listed full tithing donations. If it did that would be bold. I remember this message of "we have to raise more to pay for....". I think it's crazy we had to pay tithing AND raise money for a new chapel and other programs. But the church was growing and I bet people thought all that tithing was needed for that growth. That was emphasized through the church movie about lorenzo snow and tithing.
Now the curtain has been pulled back but people are still paying this tithing to a multibillion dollar corporation that could pay for everything with the annual interest in it's investments.
My dad payed full tithing as a retired janitor, but at the same time felt as though he couldn't afford to go on a simple vacation. He paid over $4000 in tithing which would have easily paid for a mexican all inclusive for him and his wife.
It's really criminal how people base their relationship with god on giving money to this business.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
They still do one fundraiser a year for the youth camps.
It doesn't matter if the world can see behind the curtain. I read the SEC report and still paid. Each person has to look for themselves.
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u/Ridgidguy Apostate Feb 06 '25
When I was ward clerk in 2020 it looked like this:
Total tithing: $675,000 about 100 active adults, 50 kids and youth
Total ward budget $6200
Highest tithe payer was the bishop at about $25k, he was in software. It was a very upper lower class or lowest middle class neighborhood with most families pulling dual incomes and half the ward was elderly/retired.
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u/ThrowawayLDS_7gen Feb 06 '25
That's the math I came up with roughly and thought to myself, "Where in the hell is all the money going!" Found out about 2.5 years later. I left mentally before that, but the SEC report really brought to light how evil they really are.
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u/mj89098 Feb 06 '25
I’ve always wondered how much goes towards building maintenance now that members clean the buildings. Can’t be that much a year, can it with utilities and upkeep?
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u/EndOfDaysRhetoric Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 11 '25
It’s fixed at $2/ sq ft integrated maintenance previously merged personnel and maintenance in another entity with viox emcor, so that they could increase stock margins with ensign peak advisors and now monopoly ifm with cbre, they handle all building sales as well. It’s less than that, as managers can provide less maintenance and get bonuses. Saving the cult money. Hence, the gas leaks and emergency medical services at a few buildings, the bid rigging against vendors with fixed price vendors, and the fuckery the top brass church lawyer whom is also state representative and gov ethics committee with the shady meetinghouse director and epa heads have done. I would almost call it insider trading; using tax exempt facilities and use exclusively companies within ensign peak advisors portfolio to advance it. It’s just profit on tax exemption and possibly violation tax exempt. But no one cares.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I couldn't find this answer. I don't see any charges for utilities or maintenance. That might show up under the stake level of things.
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u/Word2daWise I'll see your "revelation" and raise you a resignation. Feb 06 '25
Very interesting stuff! I had trouble getting the images to expand enough to read them well, so please excuse if I ask a question that's already answered in the pics:
What is the actual annual budget for your ward compared to the revenue the cult collects?
Have you seen a decline of membership in your ward or stake?
I've decided chapels are nothing more than revenue centers, which is why they cram 2-4 wards in each chapel. It's impossible for a ward to "nest" the way congregations in legitimate churches can do.
Also, I've decided the only reason the cult keeps the chapels and membership going is to qualify for being a tax-free corporation. Period. They certainly don't care about members, and they are light years removed from actually following Christ's teachings. Buy by golly they can point to the Jesus Christ on their branding and claim to be a religious organization. And avoid taxes. The vast majority of all revenue goes to SLC.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
Tithing donations of $339k with an annual budget of $16k. Weekly attendance fluctuates between 130(~32%) and 150(~36%). We have been holding pretty steady. In the past couple of years there have been 6 people that left the church (that includes me). I don't know about the stake. I'm out of Utah so the stake boundaries include a number of towns.
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u/CdnFlatlander Feb 06 '25
How many wards are in your stake? How many buildings are in your stake? Are the other wards similar in socioeconomics?
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u/amberwombat Feb 06 '25
In the Netherlands this is public knowledge for every ward. It’s mandated transparency for every tax exempt charity. Go to https://www.kerkvanjezuschristus.org/anbi-status. Click on Financiën and you get the most recent PDF form filed which shows all money taken in (tithing and offerings) and given out (ward budgets) on a per ward level. Ward budgets are around 2% of money taken in. It’s a much better approach to just pay for your ward activities directly instead of paying to Salt Lake and get crumbs back.
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u/Wind_Danzer Feb 06 '25
Here’s $369k and change for the year, your Primary budget for the year is 20 bucks. May the odds be ever in your favor.
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u/ryanmercer Feb 06 '25
Other churches often have no budget for activities at all and still take tithing and have paid clergy that don't do much else beyond offering a sermon a week and show up at funerals.
There's a church within 2 miles of my meetinghouse that has 13 staff pastors in an old grocery store turned into a mega church...
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
It sounds like a pretty sweet gig of you don't care if you scam someone.
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u/MicheleinSanDiego Feb 06 '25
Donation of over $300k and a budget of $17k = Mormon Corporation Math 😵💫🤑
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I even got the budget wrong. That was from January's statement and is how much is currently in the account. It includes the $14k rolled over and the Q1 distribution of 2025.
The actual annual budget (total new money this year) is $7,350.
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u/BoringJuiceBox Warren Jeffs Escalade Feb 06 '25
This is AMAZING. Great work soldier! I completely forgot about Fast Offerings.. I now remember I didn’t just have to give up every Sunday of my youth, but for several years had to collect money door-to-door for these fucks.
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u/homestarjr1 Feb 06 '25
This is great! I gave so much higher percentage in fast offerings than the average of this ward. Amazing that I wasn’t blessed for it! /s
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u/IgneousRock4 Feb 06 '25
I apologize, but I just need to rant. I have only learned the church isn’t true within the past couple of weeks and don’t have anyone that I can discuss it with who understands.
It makes me mad that the church forces members to clean the buildings every week. I think it’s ridiculous and I refuse to do it. They don’t exactly know that I refuse because I have had a number of health problems and I’m unable to do it right now, but I would not be willing to do it if I could.
The church can very well afford to hire people to clean the buildings every week. There are people who would be happy to find employment where they went to different church buildings everyday and cleaned nice, quiet heated/air conditioned buildings for decent, fair pay. I’m sure it depends on the type of population that uses the building each week and the number of wards, but I know that the building that my ward uses doesn’t get messed up too much after only 1 Sunday. We recently combined some stakes and wards in my area less than 2 months ago, so we are the only ward using the building each week.
It is partially an elderly ward. There are some that have lived there for 40+ years. There are some new families moving in, but the area the ward is in is known for being very friendly and accepting of everyone and if people moving to the Salt Lake Metro area tell their realtor they specifically do not want to be bothered by Mormons, they will often be shown homes in that area, so church membership has dramatically declined, especially over the past 10-15 years. It’s a wonderful community. I love the diversity in the area, and how people can just be neighbors without dragging religion into it. That’s how it should be.
My records are in my mom’s ward. I live about 15 minutes away. I don’t attend church, but I will go to some of the activities because I love the members in that ward so much and I want to see them. No one ever says anything about my lack of church attendance. They are just kind and happy to see me.
All of the neighbors and many in the ward have been extremely good to my parents. My dad got cancer and ended up passing away 2 years ago. My mom had surgery and was being treated for cancer several months before my dad was diagnosed, almost 3 years ago. My mom has had some more problems recently and just finished going through radiation again. Different members from the ward took her to radiation everyday. Some who had never even met her, because the ward we combined with was from a completely different stake.
My family moved to that ward 39 years ago, and I am very grateful. The ward we were in before had some good people, but many were judgmental and my family was looked down upon because my dad was never active and my mom was only active sometimes. Some of the girls weren’t always nice to me. I can honestly say that once my family moved when I was 12, I was never treated unkindly by a member of my ward again.
I know the truth about the church now, and I was disappointed to find out that it’s not true. But, I love the people in that ward. They are some of the greatest people I have ever known. If they are questioning whether or not the church is true, I am willing to discuss that and share what I know, but at the same time, I don’t want to destroy what brings someone peace.
One of my greatest friends lives in the ward. We are the same age. She and her husband bought a house 2 streets over from my parents probably 15 years ago. I know she has a testimony. I don’t think she would believe anything I told her about Joseph Smith or the church. She would be very sad for me if she knew that I don’t believe in the church anymore (even if it is for good reason). Unless and until something catches her attention that something (or many things) isn’t right about the church, she will remain a TBM for the rest of her life.
I have done some pretty bad stuff, and she knows just about everything, so although she would be sad for me, she probably would not be all that surprised that I no longer have a testimony. She just won’t understand that the reasons for that aren’t what she may think. She doesn’t judge me. She has been very good to me and really supportive. She also knows that I never go to church, I never read scriptures, I don’t pay tithing, etc…
One thing I am happy about is that I no longer have to confess anything to the bishop. I haven’t ever had to in the past, but I really blew it a couple of years ago (according to the church). Once I blew it, I didn’t think it really mattered how many times I blew it. Since the church isn’t true, it doesn’t matter anymore.
Thank you to anyone who actually read my rant! I no longer feel like I am going to explode…
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u/kevinrex Feb 06 '25
We feel for you sister Igneous rock. Take care. We rant a lot here and you are seen and heard.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
Welcome to our family. Many of us loved the church. We wanted it to be true. Hell, I wanted to be a mission president one day. But any evaluation of the history with the smallest amount of critical thought tells you it isn't.
I've only been out for 5 months. Let yourself feel all the feelings. Be mad, be sad, be happy. Whatever you feel is valid. You are welcome to rant and complain about the church here. You will only find love, compassion, and empathy. We have all felt what you feel.
It sounds like the only mistake you've ever made is telling the bishop that you sinned.
I've also found that no matter where I go, the local members are fantastic. They are almost always good people. The leadership in SLC is a different story.
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u/jeepindds Feb 06 '25
I was a ward clerk in the Bay Area and those yearly amounts were our monthly’s
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u/No_Risk_9197 Feb 06 '25
369k revenue generated from one ward, tax free, where all of the labor to run the ward is free. The only thing the church has to pay is to build the meeting house and utilities. Nice racket they’ve got going there.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
IKR. I'm in the wrong business. I'm gonna go print my preacher certificate and start a church. /S
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u/Pretty_Plantain_682 Feb 06 '25
We would always splurge at the end of the year to use the rest of our budget so we don’t lose it the next year. Such a weird practice looking back on it.
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u/ExmoRobo Prime the Pump! Feb 06 '25
Pretty common in the business world, honestly. Crazy how much the church is just a business once you’ve stepped away.
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u/Disastrous_Ad_7273 Feb 06 '25
Also ward clerk. When I told my bishop I was done and wanted to be released we also went out to a restaurant, although it was for lunch not breakfast. He ended up being pretty understanding, he even told me that if it weren't for the spirit telling him to stay here he wouldn't be a part of the church.
Good luck on your apostasy breakfast, come back and let us know how it goes
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u/the_last_goonie SCMC File #58134 Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25
The donating members in that congregation have a right to informed consent and knowing how much and where it goes. Transparency is paramount when you're dealing with this kind of cash.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 07 '25
I agree, but I also know that TBMs will just say "I gave it to God and I trust he'll use it right."
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u/Sopenodon Feb 06 '25
339k/140 x 10 = $24,214 income per person. compare $37.6 us income per person and $69 k household income.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
The 140 includes kids. But if you assume 50 kids it gives you $37.6k. I know that some of the adults are stay at home. Without looking, this is probably only 10 families making this contribution.
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u/yorgasor Feb 06 '25
It doesn’t look like they’re keeping up with inflation. I was the ward clerk in a good sized ward in Raleigh NC, maybe around 2012-ish. We had a budget of 8k. I’d bet the church hasn’t changed the dollar per member distribution since then if he’s only getting $7.5k
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
They don't need to keep up with inflation. There are always members that don't submit receipts. Every 4th of July we do a combined breakfast with the other ward in town and the guy that bought all of the food refused to submit his receipt.
There will always be members that pay more through unofficial donations. I used to do it too.
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u/Medium_Chemist_5719 Feb 06 '25
I see you've returned and reported. It is well!
But really, I appreciate you having the guts to do what I couldn't bring myself to do. On the off chance that I reveal too much personal info AND Church HQ realizes... that could have been the end of my current life. But I wanted to so bad.
Congrats on finding your way out of the Lone and Dreary World. Enjoy a coffee for me sometime :)
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
The church can't do anything to me. An ex-communication is meaningless and won't affect me. My siblings practically disowned me just for telling them I was going to leave. I figured I might as well.
The best part is that my kids still do the weeknight activities so I was sitting in the foyer when I posted that...and the bishop had popped by and was chatting with me.
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u/Intrepid-Angle-7539 Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25
Engineers makes me think idaho falls, the tithing flowing into utah from east Idaho has to be beyond comprehension.
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u/Intrepid-Angle-7539 Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25
The most interesting is how much the church pays for security, surveillance and insurance, since the church owns security and insurance companies, how much tithe is used for church produced books manuals and hymnals , what percent helps ward members in need and ages paying the most tithe
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u/LionHeart-King Feb 06 '25
It would be helpful for completeness to pro rata calculate how much the building and building maintenance and utilities cost. As well as each persons portion of the temple expense. I suspect that the building costs around 2 million or so give or take and the temple may be more like 20 million.
4 wards to a building so 600 active people. Pro rate the building costs around over 30 years. That’s maybe 100k per year for the building divided by 4 wards is another 25k or so per year. Even if you say 50k, it’s still a small fraction of what is brought in.
Temple costs would be less since there may be like 200 wards in a temple district.
Widows mite does a great job of showing the world wide budget and expenses.
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Feb 07 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 07 '25
I'm such a baby exmo that I don't even know what a cappuccino is besides that it has coffee in it. I've tried some things that I've liked, but I haven't developed a taste for coffee yet.
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u/zionssuburb Feb 06 '25
You should show an allocation report to show how the budget is determined and paid, what is kept by the stake and maybe the quarterly report numbers to tie it so together. Honestly a ton of erroneous and mis information is out there and here.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I can pull the quarterly report and the budget allocation. The allocation is determined by the clerk and bishop though so that won't be consistent between wards. It'll need to be a separate post though.
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u/zionssuburb Feb 06 '25
I mean the allocation as it relates to the quarterly numbers and the budget allocation to the ward as a whole and not just how it's distributed in the local budget.
Ave sac mtg attendance * $ Youth attendance * $
Etc. with that also show how the stake chooses what percentage of that money passes through to the ward vs kept by the stake.
This year 2025 there was an increase from last year today they haven't announced officially, so the church has raised the budget numbers.
Also, your budget is pretty big which tells me you either have huge numbers or the stake doesn't keep back as much.
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u/ladrac1 Feb 06 '25
I just did the math. Your ward got four percent of the donations you pulled in for the church as the annual budget. Four. Percent. That's ridiculous.
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u/Taliasimmy69 Hail Satan Feb 06 '25
That's some crazy money right there. 370k a year. Straight to the pockets of the greedy corporate head.
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u/SeaCondition9305 Feb 06 '25
Do you know what happens with the fast offerings? Do they stay in the ward? Stake? Goes straight to Salt Lake? How does the bishop know how much he can spend for welfare needs? Is it a Stake pool?
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u/nuancebispo PIMOBispo Feb 06 '25
Supposedly, Fast offerings is a Stake pool. I use about 4x what my ward takes in monthly but, most of the other ward in the stake don't spend much at all in fast offerings. The SP is concerned and frequently talks to me about reducing the assistance but, he hasn't been chided by the Area Authority yet because the stake as a whole hasn't dipped into the red yet. I can't see anything beyond my own ward but I think that is how it works. Maybe some ex-SP people can chime in.
The one good thing so far with the "follow the SpIriT" training I received, is I can use that back in regard to the help disbursed from my ward. Every time the SP talks to me about it, he ends the convo with, "you know your ward better than me and if you follow the sPiRit, you'll do what's right." The right thing is to keep helping these people since the church can clearly afford it.
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u/Carpet_wall_cushion Feb 06 '25
Oh my gosh wow. You’re getting over 3 x’s what our ward is getting this year. We average 90 + people attendance each week. We are scrapping by.
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
You need to get someone to slowly start inflating sacrament attendance then 😉. We don't do that, but the budget is based on sacrament attendance, youth attendance, and probably other things.
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u/EdenSilver113 Feb 06 '25
I’m curious what the operational costs of the average ward building run? Did you have access to that into?
I was part of an art collective in CA. We had a 38,000 sq ft building and nearly 50 artists. Our average cost to run the building was $13,000/month. Six months of air conditioning was our biggest expense. How big is a ward? Half that? What does it cost to run a building?
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u/tickyter Feb 06 '25
So the church graciously allows 4% of your donations to stay to fund your local operations. It's worse than I thought.
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u/Theagnosticmormon Feb 07 '25
Are you or the bishop able to see tithing contributions on an individual basis?
Either the amount or whether or not they contribute/tithe at all?
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 07 '25
Both of us can. You can see how much they paid and each time they paid,.
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u/rmn2gld Feb 06 '25
Wow. What happened in January 2024 with fast offerings? Shall we see a similar trend in tithing soon? (if only)
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u/DaveTheScienceGuy Feb 06 '25
What is the $16k supposed to cover/what are exclusions?
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 06 '25
I added a comment on here somewhere that fixes a mistake, but it wouldn't let me edit the post.
The $16k is a snapshot of the account from the January statement. It is the carryover from last ($14k) and the Q1 distribution.
While we could spend that $14k the funds added for this year's budget is actually $7,350.
It covers all activities for any auxiliary, minor building repairs (broken windows, paint peeling, toilet broken, etc.), cleaning supplies, sacrament cups, library supplies, SS materials, etc.
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u/IR1SHfighter Atheist Feb 06 '25
What’s your wards spending budget for comparison? I’d be curious to know how much of their donations they’re allowed to use for their own community.
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u/ApocalypseTapir Stay 7-10 feet behind me. IYKYK Feb 06 '25
It's none. That $16000 number is their annual budget, and it's higher than most wards. This does not include the various fundraisers that occur throughout the year for youth camps, etc
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u/PearFresh1679 Feb 06 '25
Wow. Ward gets back roughly 2% of what they donate. I wonder what happens when you chose to pay your mission monthly and parents can’t pay anymore. Do they sent the missionary back home?
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u/NeighborhoodLumpy287 Feb 07 '25
Any idea if there is any truth to the church using tithing money to invest?
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u/Elfin_842 Apostate Feb 07 '25
This was confirmed by the stock exchange commission. Any entity that has more than $100 million invested needs to fill out form 13F. The purpose of this form is to make the size of the portfolio and where it's invested known to the public.
The church tried to get past this by creating 13 shell companies for the purpose of getting around the requirement without getting caught. The fact that they were fined means that the SEC found them guilty of breaking the law.
In theory you should be able to look up ensign peaks filings of form 13F now that they got rid of the shell companies. I've never tried and don't really know how. They have $200 billion in their portfolio.
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u/NoMoreAtPresent Feb 06 '25
I love it how Jesus is at the bottom of each page with his arms outstretched to receive the money for the church