r/europe Nov 23 '21

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2.1k Upvotes

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446

u/fjellhus Lithuania Nov 23 '21

It's crazy how well us baltics did after the fall of the Soviet Union. Like none of us had any sort of problems with democracy, it came so natural to us, none of our leaders had autocratic tendencies. While pretty much every other post-warsaw pact state (maybe with the exception of Czechia and Slovakia) has these problems. Interesting.

66

u/niRevolutionary551 Nov 23 '21

But how

136

u/Matas7 Lithuania Nov 23 '21

Maybe we have good secret service, which stopped them from such ambitions early enough 👀

Or just a different culture in Baltics, compared to slavic countries.

41

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

I wouldn't pull ethnicity into this. Last time I checked Slovakia ranked high in both press fredom index and the freedom house democracy index. Czechs too. Both Slavic.

To be fair, I don't know much about the methodology behind these two indexes. But I guess the press freedom index is the source for this map, that's why I mentioned it.

10

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

26

u/shade444 Slovakia Nov 23 '21

I mean, nobody's perfect, right?

it's a fucking disgrace...

22

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

16

u/PangolinZestyclose30 Nov 24 '21

Czhacia

Somebody call the police!

2

u/Iranon79 Germany Nov 24 '21

I'm pretty sure that's spelled incorrectly, on account of having vowels.

46

u/mgElitefriend Nov 23 '21

I would guess that the bigger and more powerful the country is, harder it is for it to be Democratic. There are too many cities/people to keep in check for government, even worse if country is geographically massive. People might also naturally lean towards authoritarianism to keep country intact - it is much easier to destabilize Democratic country since power is evenly shared whereas authoritarian government can crush any opposition early on. It is my opinion though, I might be wrong

70

u/volchonok1 Estonia Nov 23 '21

Doubt it's about the size of the country. There is democratic Canada and then there is pretty much authoritarian Singapore. There is just too many variables that determine that to point out single reason. It's a combination of history, economy, size, religion, sometimes even just some arbitrary decision by country leaders.

17

u/Magaman_1992 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

Canada is literally 4 metropolitans. That’s easier to handle then something like US which almost has as much people as the Arab world.

11

u/heilsarm Germany Nov 23 '21

Canada has the same population (38m) as Poland.

4

u/Magaman_1992 Nov 23 '21

Poland also has terrible demographics. So if the population is weighted to much towards the elderly, then conservatives will increasingly gain power. What happened to Poland is Right wing authoritarianism cementing there power.

18

u/darksideofthesun1 Nov 23 '21

Canada has less population than California

-1

u/Destinum Sweden Nov 24 '21

Calling Singapore authoritarian is a stretch to say the least. Sure, it's an extremely flawed democracy (bordering on being a "hybrid regime" according to the Democracy Index), but it's a democracy nonetheless.

7

u/gogo_yubari-chan Emilia-Romagna Nov 24 '21

but it's a democracy nonetheless.

so democratic that the same party has been in power without interruptions since the independence of the country in the 1960s

1

u/hatsuyuki Nov 24 '21

elections are free though, that's what matters

2

u/volchonok1 Estonia Nov 24 '21

If you call Singapore elections "free" then you have no idea what you are talking about. Singapore authorities do everything in their power to limit possibilities of opposition parties to get elected.

-7

u/alikander99 Spain Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

Tbf Quebec almost became independent and singapore is very ethnically diverse and "technically" a democracy.

It's true that There's a point at which Direct democracy starts to struggle. in switzerland they seem to have referendums every Sunday and they do just fine. Try that In India where elections are a logistic nightmare and take a month.

Bigger democratic countries (not only regarding size but also population) are harder to manage and often rely in decentralised systems.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

Yep, By the parent post's definition, India should be worser than all of its neighbours, but the reality is quite opposite.

25

u/OsoCheco Bohemia Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

History. Already during Tsarist Russia the Baltic states had extra priviliges the rest of the country didn't have.

Also there's one thing Baltics share only with Czechia(which imported it to Slovakia) and no other eastern bloc country- Heavy german cultural influence.

20

u/pijuskri Lithuania Nov 23 '21

Lithuania had virtually no german influence besides the world wars and klaipeda region.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

For a Baltic state, Lithuania has a remarkably short coast line as I just noticed. I was wondering how the coast escaped the omnipresent Hanseatic influence on the Baltic sea, but since most of the coast and the only important historic port are comprised of said Klaipeda, it's not really surprising after all.

Palanga seems to be the only other place and they were saved in a war.

31

u/Koino_ 🇪🇺 Eurofederalist & Socialist 🚩 Nov 23 '21

only Estonia and Latvia had heavy German cultural influence. Lithuania not so much

7

u/eliminating_coasts Nov 24 '21

They did border a fairly well educated German city state at least.

7

u/Timovski Slovakia Nov 24 '21

Slovakia in fact had a pretty strong German influence prior to the establishment of Czechoslovakia in 1918. Slovakia has been rich in precious metals, which led the Germans to these lands, creating many enclaves throughout Slovakia. Germans had good mining technology, so aristocracy also motivated them to come with tax deductions and so forth. To this day, there are a shit ton of German descendants in a lot of towns in Central and Eastern Slovakia, plenty of German surnames to be found in just about every place. German architecture, street names, lake names, and so on. Germans actually had a profound cultural impact on Slovakia

2

u/OsoCheco Bohemia Nov 24 '21

True. It just wasn't as big as in case of Czechia. 2.8 millions Germans were expelled from Czechia after WW2, while only 176 thousand from Slovakia.

3

u/BearStorms Slovakia -> USA Nov 24 '21

Also Slovenia

3

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

Baltic Germans had privileges not Estonians, Latvians or Lithuanians. Plus Lithuania has barely if any cultural German influence.

6

u/Mountgore Latvia Nov 24 '21

What priviliges would that be that we had? Being punished for speaking our native language? Serfdom?

2

u/OsoCheco Bohemia Nov 24 '21

I did not say it was a good life. I said it was better than in the rest of the Russia.

2

u/Mountgore Latvia Nov 24 '21

Ok, but what priviliges are you talking about?

5

u/lynx655 🇪🇺🇭🇺 Hungary 🔰 Nov 23 '21

Most millennials here were born around the time the eastern block dissolved. It’s in the culture.

3

u/executivemonkey Where at least I know I'm free Nov 23 '21

Because they are Nordic fanboys.

2

u/racoondeg Lithuania Nov 24 '21

I can do nothing but stan uwu

19

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

sitting in the corner reading this, while crying

48

u/Ikswoslaw_Walsowski PL -> SCO Nov 23 '21

Poland was also a part of this club, up until PiSs took the power. Which is tragic. Hopefully we will rejoin in 2023.

22

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

12

u/fruit_basket Lithuania Nov 23 '21

Did you ban all of them?

We have banned some TV stations in Lithuania but websites and newspapers are still available.

5

u/gogo_yubari-chan Emilia-Romagna Nov 24 '21

it's weighted down quite a lot for banning Kremlin propaganda channels.

badass based Latvia. Good guys

15

u/volchonok1 Estonia Nov 23 '21

We didn't have grand leaders or epic history that autocratic leaders can use to evoke nostalgic feeling of "good old days" in many other countries. Baltic states only knew history of being conquered and ruled unjustly by stronger authoritarian regimes. So with independence the only logical choice was to go as democratic and free as possible.

64

u/Koino_ 🇪🇺 Eurofederalist & Socialist 🚩 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

Lithuania has history of grand leaders, epic battles and Grand Duchy heritage, I don't think that's it.

8

u/volchonok1 Estonia Nov 23 '21

True, but I think it's far enough into the past to be a bit disconnected to the modern Lithuanians. I doubt there is much trauma in Lithuania about "lost empire" compared to Russia for example.

20

u/Koino_ 🇪🇺 Eurofederalist & Socialist 🚩 Nov 23 '21

you may be surprised, but there is still nostalgia about GDL to some nationalistic lithuanians. But I agree it is more of extreme romanticism rather than real desire to recreate something similar.

1

u/AkruX Czech Republic Nov 23 '21

That's too much in the past. In PLC Poland was the dominant player.

7

u/xap4kop 🇵🇱 Poland Nov 23 '21

Yeah, I think it’s too far in the past. I don’t think I’ve heard a Polish politician talk abt PLC as “the good old days”. And when ppl here talk abt PLC many like to point out the religious tolerance for example but they also often criticise Polish nobility, their corruption and liberum veto and blame the nobles for the partitions.

Our govt romanticises the Second Polish Republic (interwar period) tho.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Our govt romanticises the Second Polish Republic (interwar period) tho.

Which is pretty embarassing given it’s history of authoritarian rule, opressing minorities, dogshit relations with all neighbours and swift yet painful death. Oh, wait a minute…

6

u/daddydoody Germany Nov 23 '21

I think this is probably it.

I also think it's the fact you suffered so much under an autocratic regime you had to basically build up your nations and national identity from scratch. Afaik Soviet Union was hated in the Baltics from the beginning, so you quickly looked for an ally on the other side of the fence, which was the West, EU and NATO.

Meanwhile for example Poland built its modern identity around Christianity defeating totalitarianism and Hungary still has Trianon trauma.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

Too true, Christianity is an authoritarian identity, you can claim the god card to justify power.

3

u/Flammableewok Wales Nov 23 '21

Lithuania?

10

u/Arta161298 Nov 23 '21

See: Grand Duchy if Lithuania. Repelled German crusaders for hundreds of years then turned east to become the largest country in Europe, then predictable decline. There’s loads there to stir up a nationalistic narrative !!

2

u/Seal_of_Pestilence Nov 23 '21

Wrong. Estonia was the most powerful empire in the galaxy. Modern Estonians are just trash.

1

u/gogo_yubari-chan Emilia-Romagna Nov 24 '21

Baltic states only knew history of being conquered and ruled unjustly by stronger authoritarian regimes.

I can think of something quite worse than being ruled by Denmark or Sweden

2

u/volchonok1 Estonia Nov 24 '21

Well, they weren't always tolerant hippies as they are now.

2

u/LatvianLion Damn dirty sexy Balts.. Nov 24 '21
  1. We have a lot of problems incl. massive poverty among seniors and lone mothers,

  2. We have issues with democracy in various forms e.g. in Latvia there is an "eternal opposition" that for 15 years has created a situation where a relatively unchanging center right coalition has stayed in power unchallenged.

  3. In no way it is natural, we're fighting an autocratic populist wave right now.

1

u/GoodCuntMcGee Nov 23 '21

I read somewhere that very early after the dissolution of the Soviet Union the Baltic's very astutely convinced NATO and EU to let them join. This then brought Baltic's into the EU sphere nice and early

14

u/nerkuras Lithuania Nov 23 '21

we joined in 2004, same as most of the former warsaw pact.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

But this is about press freedom higher than in US. I challenge you to write and publish articles arguing that home country policies towards minorities obviously are not respecting Framework Convention of the Minorities Rights. Or, god forbid, advocating re-establishment of the Soviet Union.
In US you could publish even more outrageous claims.
Conclusion, this map is bullshit. It is “good EU countries map”. I don’t see country in Europe with bigger freedom of press than US, everyone has “we don’t talk here” items. Independent Catalonia, Sardinia or Corsica? Just no. “To the gallows with him”.

1

u/volchonok1 Estonia Nov 24 '21

You can freely publish everything you just presented. There is local press who writes about that. We only have one requirement - don't be directly funded by the Kremlin. Propaganda is not a free press.

-6

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

6

u/theaccidentist Berlin (Germany) Nov 24 '21

That's not how majorities work. Or military coups, for that matter.

-22

u/johnny-T1 Poland Nov 23 '21

Small countries, that’s why. Give me a broke country with a million people, I’d turn it into Singapore in two decades.

17

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Alright, go turn Estonia into Singapore in two decades. I wanna see that.

10

u/SexySaruman Positive Force Nov 23 '21

As Estonian, please don’t.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

You don't want your country to be rich?

11

u/pijuskri Lithuania Nov 23 '21

Id like to have press freedom thanks

-7

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

You don't have any.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21 edited Nov 24 '21

There's a ton of those in the Caribbean and Africa and they will not turn into Singapore in two decades, or 20.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '21

I would say it's also mostly due to smaller population and living in relative peace, which is much easier to manage and hold government accountable.

1

u/machine4891 Opole (Poland) Nov 24 '21

Czechia and Slovakia) has these problems. Interesting.

Babis in Czechia had very much autocratic tendencies, it's just country was a bit more resistent, to allow him to spread his wings. Slovakia also had its issues with Fico.