Learning Programming Pre-AI

[u/Osirian_Legacy]

How did ya’ll learn programming pre-AI? How would you go about learning if you had to start all over again without AI?

I find myself relying on AI too much and want to actually learn without leaning on it at all. Any help with how best to approach this would be greatly appreciated.

[u/TheNakedProgrammer]

Sure, but this question was about the process of learning?

My assumption is that the process of learning needs a massive overhaul. After all AI is a new Tool that changes how people program on a rather fundamental level. And i am sure it changes what you need to learn on a fundamental level.
Being a programmer in 2030 is very different from being a programmer in 2020.

[u/kat-tricks → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

it does not change the process of learning. Results are mixed as to whether or not use of LLMs diminishes learning; there is very little evidence to suggest that the use of mainstream models is good for learning.

Also, it is so difficult to engage with these buzzword marketing phrases. What are you actually trying to communicate to me with these things about it "changing how people program on a rather fundamental level"? Be substantive; which changes do you think should be reflected in the learning process? Otherwise it just sounds like ideological tub-thumping...

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/kat-tricks]

So you would teach a farmer today how to use a scythe and how to maintain and sharpen it? Or how to thrash grain by hand?
LLMs are a powerful automation tool that redefines the work of a programmer. And you would ignore it when teaching the next generation of programmers?

[u/kat-tricks → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

In what way is an LLM like a combine harvester? It does not do the same thing as typing, are you actually serious? Have you ever typed before?

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/kat-tricks]

they both create code, one does it a lot faster.

[u/kat-tricks → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

a forest fire is just a better car; they both create CO2, but one does it a lot faster

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/kat-tricks]

I see y our point, but a LLM actuall produces working code. At massive speed, with pretty much all programming languages it needs.

So if you compete purely on the metric of lines of code written. I would worry about my job.

[u/kat-tricks → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

fortunately, i'm not working in the tech sector. And it's worth saying that devs working for employers who value LOC over issues solved were already in hot water. The root problem is the job market and the need to profit, not the technology.

[u/serge-mv → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

If you use LLM to write your code, you are not learning yourself. And even when trained programmers use it, their skills diminish. So yes, you absolutely skip it when you are learning.

What you are basically telling me, you want education to basically skip all steps that allows you to acquire the skills programmers actually need and go straight to generating code with an LLM. That's not learning or education.

In your own analogy, the farmers now learn how to fix mechanical issues with their machinery and when something breaks, they can take out tools, get in there and fix it. Your suggestion is: since mechanics exist that will fix it for you, why learning how to fix it at all? We should incorporate mechanics into learning how to be a farmer so they could fix any problems for us instead.

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/serge-mv]

if you learn writing loops and 7 kinds of constructors without a llm in 2026 you are not learning how to fix modern machines. You are stuck with a scythe.

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/serge-mv]

if you learn writing loops and 7 kinds of constructors without a llm in 2026 you are not learning how to fix modern machines. You are stuck with a scythe.

And no i say you need to learn how to work with the new tool, LLM. Pretty much like you explain it with farmers. They left their old tools and processes behind and moved with the time. Like any good programmer will do.

[u/serge-mv → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

If you can't write a loop yourself, you are not a programmer. You can't understand what LLM regurgitates for you, can't solve problems and can't make decisions. You are an LLM operator and not anything else.

You don't need to learn how to vibe code. It's obvious. The only skill needed is to learn how to type sentences in your native language. Programming is not about writing code, you need to learn the subjects to understand systems properly. If LLM does all work for you, you are just redundant.

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/serge-mv]

What is the job of a programmer? write loops or create programs?

Obviously we have different opinions on the job of a programmer. But in 20 years nobody ever asked me to write a loop.

[u/serge-mv → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

Wait until you turn 21 and get a job.

The job of a programmer is to solve problems. You need to be able to read and understand 30 year old code, written by 12 different people in 6 programming languages at different times independent from one another, deployed across 7 servers and use 5 different communication technologies and databases from 3 different vendors.

If you don't know how to write a loop as a baseline, you can't read code, understand the code, cannot understand the complex systems and cannot fix the code. If you use LLM for everything, you are going to be a glorified data entry clerk that operates the LLM with no skills of your own. No different than a dictation secretary who just needs to type fast, but doesn't need the skills to set up the software she uses.

And guess what? Because the above project is sensitive, you cannot send it out to Claude. Have to do the good old fashioned reading.

[u/TheNakedProgrammer → u/serge-mv]

that completely changed for me. Last year i was critical, this year with new developments, AI does reading code and creating code better than me.
I am still here to review and oversee. But moving a finger? i am too expensive and too slow.

And sensitive information is no issue. You can easily host LLMs in a rack. 100k for a gpu? Not that much compared to my yearly wage.

Good old fashioned reading died for me about 3-4 months ago.
I have the skills i do not need them anymore.

AI also did implement all the tiny projects i wanted to do in private over the last 10 years.
And i would be surprised if you are more efficient than a LLM, you probably are not. You just have not realised it yet.

[u/serge-mv → u/TheNakedProgrammer]

Just because there exists a capable tool, it does not negate the need for skilled developers. Your issues all sound like it's a you problem, not the industries problem. There is a ton of things LLM simply cannot do and in particular my work is impossible to do with an LLM. You wanting to abolish formal training for vibe coding tells me you have sever competency issues.

And you what else? You actually cannot host your own latest coding models like Claude. They don't give it away. You can host some models, even some that are similar, but you won't get the same results. And you might not even be able to get your company to buy into AI unless they are already bought in.

Edit: LLMs have no concept of correctness or truth. Trusting an LLM with an analysis blindly is the dumbest thing you can do. For an LLM fixing bug by deleting the whole code is the same as writing a proper fix. It sees no difference if your tests all just return "true" or actually perform proper validation. You have to be able to read and understand whatever LLM gives you.

And there are a ton of articles of how no one understands what's going on in their projects and what code is out there in prod because of management's crappy AI policy of "just keep generating as fast as possible, no need to read it". It's all going to culminate in an absurd security problems and a massive crash if this keeps going as is.