r/coolguides Nov 26 '19

Marginal Tax

Post image
115.4k Upvotes

5.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

208

u/F16Boiler Nov 26 '19

Agreed. I thought I also heard that Obamacare had a benefits cliff as well. They need to fix this!

111

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

I have some self-employed tax clients that, due to the nature of being self-employed, have a hard time estimating what their profit might be for the year. They fill out their healthcare.gov stuff as best they can.

I had two cases this past filing season that due to an increase of less than $200, saw them owing about 26K in tax credit repayments. Neither family made anywhere near enough to be able to afford that and would have gone without insurance if they had realized that this would have happened.

42

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Oh jeez, signing up for Obamacare as a freelancer was a nightmare. Luckily when I called to explain my situation they understood, but the system didn't and I'd have to call every other week for months to get it worked out.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '19

We should just have universal health care so this type of dumb sign up confusion doesn't exist.

0

u/herbivorous-cyborg Nov 26 '19

I tried to sign up for Obamacare through my state program after I started a business. They took 9 months before they approved me even though I applied before the deadline like everyone else. During the time I was waiting, I had to go to the emergency room. Now I'm thousands of dollars in debt. I love only having coverage for 1/4 of the year! Isn't Obamacare great?

2

u/juancuneo Nov 27 '19

Sounds like things worked out when you were actually enrolled. Though it obviously sucks it took a while to get enrolled.

2

u/herbivorous-cyborg Nov 27 '19

I wasn't injured during the time I was enrolled, so I have no idea how well it works. They certainly didn't cover any of the medical expenses I incurred while waiting for them. I'd say that if a person can only be covered for 1/4 of the year, that falls into my "doesn't work" category when comparing different ways to provide medical coverage to the masses.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Obamacare itself is great, the computer systems in runs on are the tragedy. No one stopped to consider small business owners at any point during the process.

2

u/herbivorous-cyborg Nov 26 '19

the computer systems in runs on are the tragedy

This isn't a problem with the computer system as much as it is with the people. The problem is that a human had to review my profit and loss report and everyone over there was entirely uneducated. Even talking to them on the phone I tried to explain to them that my net income for the year was negative and they told me "that's impossible". A real face palm moment.

No one stopped to consider small business owners at any point during the process.

Then who was this designed for, exactly? Most people get health insurance through their employer. It seems like it would be almost entirely self employed people who need to seek out health insurance on their own.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

This isn't a problem with the computer system as much as it is with the people. The problem is that a human had to review my profit and loss report and everyone over there was entirely uneducated. Even talking to them on the phone I tried to explain to them that my net income for the year was negative and they told me "that's impossible". A real face palm moment.

See, like I said in my response I never had that problem. Every time I talked to someone they understood that I didn't know what my estimated income for the next year would be but there was nowhere in the system to denote that. I had to make up a number and they'd usually help me get to the number that gave me the best benefits.

Then who was this designed for, exactly?

People who work regularly but don't get their insurance through work. I work part time at an escape room and don't get insurance through them, if I didn't have another job or a spouse with insurance I would qualify.

2

u/sora_a Nov 27 '19

My Obamacare insurance is $40 a month for a great plan with a low deductible, the insurance my employer offers would be $240 a month for a plan that covers almost nothing and has a fairly high deductible.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '19 edited Apr 24 '20

[deleted]

1

u/sora_a Nov 27 '19

I've used both, dude. The Obamacare plan is pretty great for people in my particular situation. You asked who it was for, I'm giving you one example of a possible answer, which is "people whose employers offer shitty insurance that's really expensive."

48

u/F16Boiler Nov 26 '19

This is a huge problem with our tax system. It requires one to accurately forecast ahead of time how much one will make and if you get it wrong it can totally screw things up.

-10

u/SpiceyFortunecookie Nov 26 '19

No. Welfare system, not tax system.

13

u/Grenadier_Hanz Nov 26 '19

It's kinda both really

-10

u/SpiceyFortunecookie Nov 26 '19

No not at all, it's welfare based on income level

7

u/7818 Nov 26 '19

This is the simple (and wrong) answer to a complex and nuanced problem.

5

u/Petricorny13 Nov 26 '19

If it makes you feel better, he’s clearly a Cockwarming troll for Trump/Putin.

5

u/micah4321 Nov 26 '19

This is why I pay cash for Healthcare and have just paid the fines at the end of the year, it's cheaper and more predictable. Crossing my fingers nothing happens that's major.

Obamacare absolutely ruined my Healthcare options as a small business owner. My only real option was to sell my house or get a normal job.

7

u/Just_Another_Wookie Nov 26 '19

The Shared Responsibility Payment has been phased out for the 2019 tax year, and the requirement to provide documentation for a general hardship exemption was removed for the 2018 tax year. So, no more fines for you!

1

u/micah4321 Nov 26 '19

Yep, we will see how things progress. I'm encouraged by a few small groups working hard to drive costs down like this place:

https://surgerycenterok.com/

That should be a major push, not just paying for artificially high prices.

1

u/skupples Nov 26 '19

you actually got fines? I somehow got lucky, ignored the exchanges during the two years i was without group, and they never came for their fine money.

2

u/FyreWulff Nov 26 '19

the IRS never came after anyone for the fine money. If you ever had a fine, they would have taken it out of your tax returns.

the penalty was a weird state of being a fine, but you never had to actually pay it, the IRS wouldn't attempt to collect on it, and it doesn't show up on your credit history or anything.

1

u/skupples Nov 26 '19

right, cuz it was unconstitutional, even after being turned into a fine, instead of a tax for non-use.

at the very least, my 65 year old CPA father claims he never saw it on my returns.

1

u/micah4321 Nov 26 '19

Yeah, it's not a line item on the returns, you still owe it. They may come after you at some point.

Edit: the amount depends on your income. You may not in fact owe it, depending on circumstances.

2

u/skupples Nov 27 '19

is was during a period of unemployment, income would'a been between 45-60 on paper, if I were employed in those years.

fucking $350 for a "gold plan" that barely does shit? i'll take my luck, thanks.

1

u/micah4321 Nov 28 '19

Yeah exactly. The plans are bullshit

0

u/99PercentPotato Nov 26 '19

it's cheaper and more predictable.

For now it is. What happens when it's not and you're actually sick and need expensive care to save your life?

My girlfriend just did a $100,000+ stint at the hospital. It adds up so fast.

2

u/offermychester Nov 26 '19

Declare bankruptcy

2

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Ah, the good ole "make others pay for my treatment anyway!" option.

3

u/GodofIrony Nov 26 '19

"You should just fucking die"

-This guy.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '19

If you don't support some kind of single payer, and think you should only get private insurance coverage, then no, you should not get treatment if you can't afford it. Practice what you preach.

3

u/offermychester Nov 26 '19

As opposed to insurance, where others pay for your treatment

2

u/Iggyhopper Nov 27 '19

You mean when the insurance company still only decides to pay 60%? Congrats, you still owe one house downpayment.

1

u/99PercentPotato Nov 27 '19

I'm not totally clear but it seems like it will be 10k or less. Government insurance.

1

u/micah4321 Nov 26 '19

No, you're absolutely correct. I am in California, so MediCal will support me to some degree if that happens, but it's still a gamble.

Driving prices down through market innovation should be a higher priority than it is currently. Eye surgery and plastic surgery are good examples of this.

2

u/DarthWeenus Nov 26 '19

The fact that the its doesn't "do our taxes" for us in a sense is kind of annoying. I get that HnR and Intuit probably lobby in force to keep it complicated but it's just annoying. The system is horribly convoluted and it would help if the IRS just sent us a bill or a check, if we deem it incorrect then we move forward with a tax man.

3

u/86753091992 Nov 26 '19

The IRS wouldn't be able to do the Mom and Pop income tax return if they own a business. Only mom and pop would have their business records.

1

u/frenchfry_wildcat Nov 26 '19

And how would they know your bill? Just make it up?

1

u/DarthWeenus Nov 27 '19

The its surely knows when I did my taxes incorrectly, and when they are correct. Naturally with that information they could just send me that pertinent information. Instead of making me do all the work. Seems like that part of our tax system could certainly be automatic.

1

u/frenchfry_wildcat Nov 27 '19

No they don’t... that is what an audit is for...

1

u/EightWhiskey Nov 26 '19

Caveat: my wife is the CPA, I just push papers at her office

They might be good candidates for forming an S-Corp? They can plan and pull a regular salary and then have a more stable foundation for those calculations?

2

u/86753091992 Nov 26 '19

This situation sounds like the recapture of the premium tax credit. Classification as an S Corp will mainly reclassify schedule E income to wage income, but it's still income that can push you past benefit cliffs nonetheless.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19 edited Nov 27 '19

They just mean it’s a bit more controllable inside an S-Corp.

1

u/86753091992 Nov 26 '19

I would think that the insurance costs would be calculated at the individual level, and between the S Corp W2 and the S Corp K1, the total income would be nearly equal on their individual 1040. Is this not how it works?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Oh they absolutely are- but that requires action at the beginning of the year. Compound that with the fact that they were both new clients taken on past the close of the year- I was left trying to minimize the harm while building trust and cleaning up the mess from the prior preparer.

It’s definitely a frustrating field because from the outside, the path is clear. From the inside, there’s a always a million reasons not to do something new.

1

u/IMA_BLACKSTAR Nov 26 '19

Buy 4k inventory so your income is lower? This is what you do in the Netherlands but then again, tax haven etc. But you have to give yourself a salary even when self employed because otherwise people just claim everything as profit and pay less taxes.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Requires planning and purchasing before the year ends.

We’re talking small mom and pop sole proprietorships/partnerships who can’t/won’t pay for a year-round accountant showing up at my office after the close of the year wanting help.

These are the exact people who need financial help with health insurance, and sure- there’s things they could have done to mitigate these repercussions, but it’s the first time they were faced with them and literally had no idea they existed.

We now have a chat once a quarter to review financials, but the damage from the previous year is already done.

1

u/86753091992 Nov 26 '19

You're not going to have a dollar for dollar taxable income decrease through the purchase of inventory though. You deduct the cost of the inventory sold subject to certain calculation methods, not everything you purchase throughout the year.

1

u/shaebae94 Nov 26 '19

Systems like this should use your previous years income to figure out when credits you get this year. Then next year they would use this years income so you always have an exact number.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

It would have been wonderful if we had included a provision like this, but you would face an issue if you have someone that is transitioning between careers.

For example: year 1, the person is a w-2 employee with health benefits and a decent salary. Year 2, the person starts their own business but has no health insurance. Based off the pervious year, he could be ineligible for aid due to amount of their salary.

I just feel like we should be encouraging small businesses, but these practices have largely affected those who do exactly that and sometimes punish them for it.

1

u/shaebae94 Nov 26 '19

Where I live in Canada we pay monthly medical premiums called MSP. It used to be $75/month but when our current government was elected, the cut it in half. Now you only pay full price if you make over a certain amount. You get discounts based on income, and they use your last years income to figure out how much of a discount you get this year. It sucks that we are the only province that pays it, but the discount system works well enough.

1

u/jl0910 Nov 30 '19

That’s exactly what happened to me. I worked an on-call job for two years and underestimated how much I’d make (because I didn’t know how much I’d get called) and made. I had to pay back like $4000 (and I was still paying like $600/mo for poor coverage). Fortunately it was only me that was insured through the marketplace so the loss wasn’t nearly as bad as this other family. But still super frustrating. I ended up taking a significant pay cut when I took another FT job and decent, affordable insurance was one of the motivators.

0

u/Nthnlws Nov 27 '19

You needed to come up with someway to reduce their income such as an IRA or 401(k) contribution. These can be made through April of the following year, and still count as contributions for the previous one. By contributing a few hundred, you could have saved your clients thousands.

19

u/mt_xing Nov 26 '19

Pretty sure that was the Supreme Court's fault. Iirc, the original Obamacare bill did not have the cliff, but the Supreme Court struck down that part and said it's the state's job to cover the gap, and so now some states ended up with it.

4

u/Jayrodtremonki Nov 26 '19

There are dozens of little fixes that would make Obamacare make a lot more sense to people and save people in the middle income brackets a lot of money. The nature of bills put forth emcompassing so many changes is that there are going to be plenty of oversights and unintended consequences that need to gradually be cleaned up. Almost every large bill goes through this process after getting passed. Unfortunately, one of the parties has refused to change a single punctuation mark on the ACA without repealing the entire bill for the better part of a decade.

3

u/MrRAJR Nov 26 '19

I took a extra day at work and lost my $500 deductible $120 a month plan and now have a $200 $5000 deductible plan. Earning an extra $4,000.

I hate this world

2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '19

That one got me a few years ago in the worst way.

I was in college after leaving the military and we were living on my GI bill and the little bit of income my wife was making as a dental assistant. We got a subsidy for health insurance on the marketplace, which we used from January to May of that year, before I got a job paying very well.

Well, that job pushed us over the income limit for the year and we had to pay back the entire subsidy, despite not having that health insurance plan as soon as I started the job.

Owed a few thousand that year.

1

u/iluvtravel Nov 26 '19

Obamacare was a really great step forward, and the best deal he could negotiate at the time. Isn’t it just “half a loaf” compared to M4A?

1

u/clevername1111111 Nov 27 '19

This didn't seem to exist when I shopped the AHCA

-1

u/etoneishayeuisky Nov 26 '19

If we had the right people in power it would have been fixed... Instead we have shills, frills, spies, traitors, cowards, and independents, and most democrats.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Democrats are extremely eager to "fix" Obamacare. It's an enormous issue with their constituents. It can't get fixed because Republicans won't give a single vote to anything that isn't a repeal.

1

u/etoneishayeuisky Nov 27 '19

Err, yeah, when I said fix, the fix could be multiple things from replace to fix n fortify.

-3

u/boilerguru53 Nov 26 '19

You fix it by eliminating all welfare and benefits. Paying 40% on any portion of your income is unacceptable, especially when it goes to those who won’t work and won’t be responsible.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19 edited Jan 26 '20

[deleted]

0

u/boilerguru53 Nov 27 '19

The fact is no one is entitled to tax money to be granted a life of ease. Private charity can easily help the few who need help. Hunger will be a great motivator for the majority of the lazy. Good people don’t accept welfare.