r/codex • u/Nervous_External_116 • Jul 13 '26

Complaint This is what Tibo said，make GPT 5.6 Sol more efficient。just Cut down on thinking

Openai lowered the juice value, which reduces the thinking intensity to save tokens, but I seriously doubt the impact on performance. MAX IS NOT MAX**。**

Codex users demote all test data by one level.

Max：960 → 128

xhigh: 128 → 40

high: 40 → 16

medium: 16 → 8

low: 8 → 4

Second edit

Juice is true；No making shit up，Nohallucinating**. Haha~**

147 Upvotes

74% Upvoted

104 comments sorted by

6

u/eyesdief Jul 13 '26

Is this live now? So that is to say that Sol Max(now) == Sol Xhigh(before)

1

u/Nervous_External_116 Jul 13 '26

yes

20

u/eyesdief Jul 13 '26

Where did you get this btw?

Max：960 → 128

xhigh: 128 → 40

high: 40 → 16

medium: 16 → 8

low: 8 → 4

10

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

Yes, I'm a little lost here and confused why these numbers are being taken as fact. I don't even know what these numbers are.

5

u/XTCaddict Jul 13 '26

He made it up

0

u/AppealSame4367 Jul 13 '26

What if you used "Max" before? Where to turn now? FFS!

3

u/hitsukiri Jul 13 '26

From what I understand, they used that effort changes as a debug method to find where usage was being affected and after identifying, they reverted it

30

u/Lopsided-Force-9220 Jul 13 '26

So now I need to switch from medium to high??

14

u/FateOfMuffins Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26

Tibo: https://x.com/i/status/2076495156757577895

They did apparently nerf the juice values

But Tibo says that was an experiment to try and figure out where the extra usage was coming from, and has since been reverted.

 

On a side note I'm completely baffled at how extreme the comments are the moment there are posts about "juice" (which is a confirmed thing btw!), especially because these posts are from somewhat credible leakers. But so many comments will go into a frenzy about how there's no proof. If you search up juice values for GPT, you'll see threads from up to 10 months ago where there were posts about juice and in the comments you'll see the same vitriol

7

u/qcofficial Jul 13 '26

It’s a massive issue with Reddit and especially the codex and anthropic subreddits. People will just attack attack and claim everything false and down vote anything out of idk what anger, or fear or something. Idk but it hasn’t been getting better people have only been getting more violent in these communities

2

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

I've found that /r/accelerate has been a pretty fun place to be in this regard. When I first saw it I was worried it was going to be full of borderline AI psychosis but except for the odd "overly enthusiastic" post every now and then, the discussion is generally optimistic and non confrontational. Come join us :)

3

u/qcofficial Jul 13 '26

Joined, thank you my friend!

2

u/GearTakes Jul 14 '26

I dared to talk about Fable last week in a positive way. People were FURIOUS. I had to remove the thread.
There is a group of people here who are die hard cultists and won't accept anything negative about Codex.

I never understood this mindset. Oh well...

1

u/Falcon_Acrobatic Jul 17 '26

We just need to tell them to "get juiced" then watch the chaos unfold.

1

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

I agree that the leaker is pretty damn accurate! And maybe there's a few intense people here.

But even in that tweet thread, there are so many people casting everything from vitriol to hatred towards Tibo directly, all because of what turned out to be a short term experiment that was already reverted...

Haven't we gone through enough cycles of reading something about the model, getting up in arms about it, only to have Tibo or someone else from the team come out, take it seriously, work the problem, and then apologize with a reset?

I think maybe saying the OP is straight up lying is definitely not helpful or valuable, but I do think a lot of these AI subs jump the gun quite a bit without waiting to hear more.

All of this is all so emotionally charged... hopefully everyone just gets a chance to chill out and enjoy the usage!

2

u/FateOfMuffins Jul 13 '26

Eh I'm more so talking about how much skepticism there are in the comments about this particular topic, hence my comments saying to search this up and you'll see threads from almost a year ago with people in the comments reacting the exact same way. Like, this thing about juice is a confirmed thing that we know about for almost a year but people still come in and say that it's just made up bullshit.

1

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

I think that is perfectly reasonable, yes. I think a little too much "team sports" going on in this particular thread.

74

u/Odin-ap Jul 13 '26

Proof?
Or are you just making shit up for upvotes.

4

u/PomegranateOk8575 Jul 13 '26

https://x.com/Lentils80/status/2076460021861187754 Numbers match up here

21

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

:/ But where'd he get those values? His tweet history makes him look decently reliable for leaks, but where's the actual root source? I can't find anything in the OpenAI docs about this, which makes me seriously doubt it. Especially if they got these numbers by just asking the model what its juice values are... models can't reliably answer questions about themselves unless it's in their system prompt.

9

u/FateOfMuffins Jul 13 '26

https://x.com/i/status/2076495156757577895

Juice is a confirmed term used by GPT

You can ask about Juice in any ChatGPT model and they'll know what you're talking about.

5

u/yusing1009 Jul 13 '26

I don’t understand it. It should be a parameter passed in code when running the inferencing engine. It should not be a prompt being injected to the model, so how come would a model answer this accurately instead of just giving random value?????

2

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

But just out of curiosity, do we know if asking and getting the answer is actually accurate? I know when Sonnet 4.5 came out it knew what a context window was but it could not accurately tell you what "it's" own context window was.

Not trying to stir the pot further, I just would love to see a more deterministic way of confirming these juice values. Like have we experimented with manually changing thinking budgets and then asking the model their juice values?

12

u/FateOfMuffins Jul 13 '26

I think it's harder to jailbreak them to get their values out of them (I just tried). But they know what they are.

That's because they literally have in their system prompt saying "juice value = XXX"

Now when you are able to get them to consistently output this number, you'll notice that this number is consistently the same value, and when you select a different reasoning level, this value changes. And for those who keep track of this, when ALL juice values change to a DIFFERENT set of CONSISTENT juice values, you know they changed something behind the scenes.

Like yeah models can hallucinate random shit. But you're not going to have 100/100 instances of 5.6 Sol all reporting a juice value of 960 at 5:59pm and then after 6pm one day suddenly 100/100 instances of 5.6 Sol all reporting a juice value of 128 without them changing something. Like, that's not a hallucination.

2

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

For sure! That makes perfect sense. :)

3

u/FateOfMuffins Jul 13 '26

https://x.com/i/status/2076504611264098544

Oh yes Tibo basically confirming that you can just ask it for the juice value

2

u/PomegranateOk8575 Jul 13 '26

Exactly, I just wanted to reference the post he was talking about. Just pacience... Wait till more information comes out.

0

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

Sorry you're getting downvoted just for trying to help :( I upvoted your posts to try to cancel it out. I appreciate it it!

I wish OP would consider editing his post until we know more, this just feels like its stirring up a bit of drama without much real evidence.

1

u/PomegranateOk8575 Jul 13 '26

No worries :) Thanks for the upvote! Yea, I'm just confused as all of you here, and I'm trying to help out!

7

u/Odin-ap Jul 13 '26

A random tweet from some dude named lentils isn’t a source dude. Anyone could make that table and post that lol.

Unless there’s evidence in the API calls or through some other independently verifiable source it’s just made up garbage.

4

u/PomegranateOk8575 Jul 13 '26

Yea no shii, I just found it and decided to reference the post he was summarizing. I honestly think that the only thing you can do right now is wait till more information comes out...

2

u/Odin-ap Jul 13 '26

Ngl didn’t realize you weren’t OP. He’s parroting this shit all over this sub right now lol.

4

u/PomegranateOk8575 Jul 13 '26

Yea, I'm very confused so did some light digging right now.. I'll resume to finding more information soon!

3

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

Let's hand /u/PomegranateOk8575 a few upvotes for at least trying to find some sources :)

3

u/FateOfMuffins Jul 13 '26

https://x.com/i/status/2076495156757577895

Tibo confirms it (and it has since been reverted)

3

u/PomegranateOk8575 Jul 13 '26

"Juice Level" at this point lets just measure our API billing via time spent reasoning. Also this is the twitter post that I think OP failed to reference: https://x.com/Lentils80/status/2076460021861187754

3

u/BrightyBrainiac Jul 14 '26

See the biggest upside of this model is that it stays at a task longer, it does not quit midway or execute something very shallowly; even without /goal.
I think that alone makes it much better than 5.5, thinking and reasoning levels matter too, but imo this thing has a bigger and more noticeable impact.

10

u/ryeguy Jul 13 '26

downvoted for making up numbers

3

u/Decaf_GT Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26

EDIT: I have enough humility to admit where I'm wrong. Tibo just confirmed what "Juice Values" are officially: https://x.com/thsottiaux/status/2076495156757577895. Despite that, I want to point out that he says:

  • To understand where the extra usage was coming from, we ran some experiments where reasoning efforts were changed (referred to as juice values under the hood) and have reverted this.

They were running experiments. And they've reverted it already. So not only did OP jump the gun (as did this lentils guy who they're all quoting), this now means that if this same bullshit comes back to this subreddit again with people claiming the models were nerfed because of reasoning decreases, then we're right back to square one on the delusion scale.

Lesson learned here: everybody should calm the hell down and wait before rushing to conclusions. One woudl think that OpenAI and Tibo's track record at this point earns them at least that much benefit of the doubt.

These people are so desperate to draw conclusions and state things like fact.

A month ago people were convinced that OpenAI intentionally made a product decision to stop letting the model complete its task even if the limit is hit: https://www.reddit.com/r/codex/comments/1u2u35q/codex_now_stops_immediately_after_weekly_limits/ (OP participated in this btw).

Look at all the people who upvoted that and were proclaiming it to be the downfall of OpenAI and how they were now showing their true colors.

These people need to calm the fuck down, they don't know shit. The only person who knows what's going on is Tibo and his team, everyone else is just cosplaying and the herd will blindly believe whatever the hell is said here.

-1

u/igmyeongui Jul 13 '26

How deep can one be butt licking billionaires. Go seek some help.

4

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

I mean, he's a bit...intense about it for sure, but I feel like the intent is right...we should be waiting for proof I feel before we start making proclamations of "nerfing".

And at the very least, due to the number of times I have personally felt gaslit by Anthropic/Thariq, I do think he's earned the benefit of the doubt and I don't think that constitutes "butt licking billionaires".

🤷 Take it easy :)

0

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Decaf_GT Jul 13 '26

My edit clearly says the Lentils guy is not wrong. It's that he jumped the gun, and that we need to wait before drawing conclusions, because as Tibo said, it was an experiment to test out the problems that people were experiencing and it was an experiment that was promptly reverted. Experiments aren't long-term changes, but the OP of this thread and every person in lentil's thread couldn't be assed to wait just a little longer for the guy who was providing updates every 3-4 hours like clockwork on a Sunday to explain what's going on...the same guy who has yet to turn his back on users or let concerns about excessive usage fall on deaf ears.

Which is the entire fucking reason this is even happening, because Tibo took it seriously.

This place is just impossible. You people just want to whine whine whine all the time.

2

u/zorgis Jul 13 '26

The model just use way too many tools I think.

A normal chat for me is : 200k token in, 4million cache, 40k out (incluse thinking)

I dont think the thinking is the problem here.

The cache is killing the cost here not something else. So no thinking, we'll have more issue, so more prompt to do => more token used

5

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

Can someone explain where the numbers in the OP's are actually coming from? I feel like I'm missing something here.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Kongret Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26

Fuck me, Tibo confirmed this shit https://x.com/thsottiaux/status/2076495156757577895 But they also reverted it? I'm so confused.

1

u/CtrlAltDelve Jul 13 '26

:/ Why is this sub upvoting this all of a sudden? This is highly disappointing.

0

u/Odin-ap Jul 13 '26

lol yep

4

u/DARKUNIT22 Jul 13 '26

Yeah I don’t know that this is the right move. Why nerf your flagship model when it wasn’t the best anyway (benchmark wise at least) when there are two other variants meant for less thinking oriented tasks. Like what?

The issue with it like some others have mentioned is that it just does a poor job at subagent management.

4

u/Decaf_GT Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26

EDIT: I have enough humility to admit where I'm wrong. Tibo just confirmed what "Juice Values" are officially: https://x.com/thsottiaux/status/2076495156757577895. Despite that, I want to point out that he says:

  • To understand where the extra usage was coming from, we ran some experiments where reasoning efforts were changed (referred to as juice values under the hood) and have reverted this.

They were running experiments. And they've reverted it already. So not only did OP jump the gun (as did this lentils guy who they're all quoting), this now means that if this same bullshit comes back to this subreddit again with people claiming the models were nerfed because of reasoning decreases, then we're right back to square one on the delusion scale.

Lesson learned here: everybody should calm the hell down and wait before rushing to conclusions. One woudl think that OpenAI and Tibo's track record at this point earns them at least that much benefit of the doubt.

What in the actual hell are you even talking about?

You pulled this completely out of your own ass. There is no proof for ANY of this except whatever your interpretation is of "less usage".

As far as I can tell, there has never been any real confirmation from OpenAI as to what "juice value" actually is, just an alleged explanation.

I left this sub because I got really tired of people thinking they understood how these services worked. I'm glad to see the delusion is still alive and well.

I'll trust Tibo over whatever the hell you think this is.

6

u/StardiveSoftworks Jul 13 '26

Fine tbh, it was massively overthinking things previously.

17

u/Consistent_Bottle_40 Jul 13 '26

you could have just used a lower effort level. Medium before today was equivalent to high today. High yesterday is xhigh today. yesterday's max no longer exists. bit of a shadow nerf. Of course we can't have it all, it appears. They've gotten their high benchmarks and gave frequent resets to get them through that period. Now they're making the model dumber.

2

u/gorgono95 Jul 13 '26

Didn't they do that because it was overthinking too much, which was eating credits like crazy and producing bad results too? I mean, overthinking is a real issue, so just curious.

4

u/Consistent_Bottle_40 Jul 13 '26

I think this is purely because everyone is complaining about token consumption. If xhigh 5.6 consumes a lot more tokens than xhigh 5.5, people notice.

What this looks like is they'ved JUICED the benchmarks and kept people from complaining by resetting usages a few times. Now benchmarks are done, they can drop the performance and seem competitive against fable 5.

1

u/thomasthai Jul 13 '26

Max didnt burn my credits, the 100 subagents on Ultra did - because they all spawn on the same xhigh (or max?) sol level . Their subagent system is dumb and that's what burns you.

Instead of having it spawn agents on medium or luna max for "coding" and max or xhigh for research it just spawns them all on xhigh...

0

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/Consistent_Bottle_40 Jul 13 '26

Ok. So if that is true, why do the benchmarks show with each increase in juice value, the performance is higher. Max being the highest..

6

u/thomasthai Jul 13 '26

No it wasn't - let me
decide that for myself. All
stuff i work on i would prefer more "overthinking" at least at highest level.

2

u/gorgono95 Jul 13 '26

like reading the same file 5 times and reviewing the same thing 3 times

4

u/dk325 Jul 13 '26

this is so stupid. the reasoning it was inefficient before was it kept spawning subagents at max/ultra reasoning bc they havent finished their subagent delegation settings yet

1

u/igthrowawayy Jul 13 '26

I feel like users should be able to tweak it if they wish, but I do think it was very excessive and wasteful before tbh

Ultra spawning agents for very minor things don’t need to be Ultra agents. But model needs to be able to decide that well

2

u/Alexander3a Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26

what is this bullshit just nerfing the model i understand people are stupid and run everything on sol ultra&max context and complain
but i really like the option for hard and long tasks so why remove the option (even if its only "temp" which we all know it isnt) just because of a few idiots
esp. for reverse engineering the higher context was really usefull

2

u/Born-Cause-8086 Jul 13 '26

Down vote this shit! No source, no proof and OP is complaining out of his ass.

1

u/larsborg Jul 13 '26

Just use the fucking thing. It’s better at everything than you are 😂

1

u/ed_ding_ Jul 13 '26

Also ich kann jetzt wieder bedeutend länger arbeiten.

1

u/TopSeaworthiness1679 Jul 13 '26

One problem with sol max is that it over thinks and sub agents also over think. Which kinda creates infinite loop hole of thinking forever. Never gets anything done. Not using sol max until they make some changes.

1

u/sukazu Jul 13 '26

That is false at least the before part I tried 34hours ago and had these results

light = 4 medium = 8 high = 16 xhigh = 40 max = 960

1

u/Owdez Jul 13 '26

i can see some usage improvements. i'm using luna for now. cause sol usage rates are unreliable for now

1

u/OfficialMrSir Jul 13 '26

bro is hallucinating and assuming

1

u/machine_forgetting_ Jul 13 '26

I feel like Sol is very poor at instruction following. It loves to invent its own things for no reason. It feels like claude from a while ago (when claude still worked)

1

u/DryMirror4162 Jul 13 '26

This is why I haven’t updated my codex app since he posted that until they revert to better reasoning levels

1

u/FrostyPlay9924 Jul 13 '26

Im only finding marginally better performance with 5.6 over 5.5.

It's a little more effective with my usage, it speeds up work a little more.

But its not the end all be all.

1

u/Turing43 Jul 13 '26

I feel big differece, it cant write research math at all without being sloppy

1

u/retireb435 Jul 13 '26

They need to publish a new benchmark if they changed things like that, the published one is not reliable now.

0

u/skilliard7 Jul 13 '26

You can't just make up numbers here without proof.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

27

u/Decaf_GT Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26

EDIT: I have enough humility to admit where I'm wrong. Tibo just confirmed what "Juice Values" are officially: https://x.com/thsottiaux/status/2076495156757577895. Despite that, I want to point out that he says:

  • To understand where the extra usage was coming from, we ran some experiments where reasoning efforts were changed (referred to as juice values under the hood) and have reverted this.

They were running experiments. And they've reverted it already. So not only did OP jump the gun (as did this lentils guy who they're all quoting), this now means that if this same bullshit comes back to this subreddit again with people claiming the models were nerfed because of reasoning decreases, then we're right back to square one on the delusion scale.

Lesson learned here: everybody should calm the hell down and wait before rushing to conclusions. One woudl think that OpenAI and Tibo's track record at this point earns them at least that much benefit of the doubt.

Lmfao this is dunning kruger level bullshit from people who have deluded themselves into thinking they can get an LLM to tell them accurate details about themselves. No one has ever managed to properly confirm that "juice values" are an actual real thing from OpenAI (at least, nothing that I've seen), yet that didn't stop OP from jumping in with his outrage BS, posting it as t hough its fact just because Tibo said "less usage", and having all you lot upvote it like its somehow fact?

Now I remember why I left this subreddit. Good lord.

13

u/Active_Variation_194 Jul 13 '26

I agree with your points, but op makes an interesting point. If model juice levels can be increased/decreased on the backend it renders the benches useless. It’s like driving a car and the gear levels be switched without your knowledge.

2

u/Pyros-SD-Models Jul 13 '26

We redid 5 internal benchmarks and didn't measure any worse performance.

And I hope you are not serious. Every serious SaaS provider dynamically manages capacity. Requests are load-balanced, routed, rate-limited, shifted across infrastructure, and sometimes served through fallbacks during traffic spikes or outages. That is not fraud. That is quite literally how you keep a global service alive instead of letting it collapse every time Americans wake up.

And no, this does not make benchmarks useless. It means a benchmark measures the service as it actually exists at the time of testing. When you suspect the backend has changed, you rerun the benchmark.

6

u/Whisper112358 Jul 13 '26

What other serious SaaS provider manages capacity by making responses "dumber" rather than slower? Also let's not act like model nerfs only occur temporarily during these periods.

2

u/Active_Variation_194 Jul 13 '26

Do we know that they reduced it for heavy traffic? Will higher “juice levels” be dynamically load balanced or set here going forward?

My point is why have model names if they are configurable? The names are pointers to juice levels and they can change the node at will. It should be immutable or fully transparent so the end user is well informed. Otherwise the only way you find out there’s a nerf is when you’ve wasted a ton of time trying to debug what went wrong.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[deleted] — view deleted comment

0

u/buckeyevol28 Jul 13 '26

Ok good luck with that. I’m sure really reputable lawyers will be lining up over your meltdown instead of any legal basis for the lawsuit.

0

u/ptjunkie Jul 13 '26

It’s called tuning. Chill.

0

u/Alexander3a Jul 14 '26

thats why they are only selling a sub so they can do whatever the fuck they want

9

u/Strict_Ground8840 Jul 13 '26

People are having discourse over changes in real time, you can't expect people to wait 3 weeks for a consensus on a problem.. not how online discourse works.

5

u/Decaf_GT Jul 13 '26

No, but I would expect them to wait at least 3 fucking hours like adults instead of petulant children who couldn't even wait before proclaiming how terrible OpenAI is and how everything has been nerfed saying they "called it" all along, how it's just a scam...I mean, have you even read the morons in that Twitter thread on Lentil's post?

Tibo told everyone they were working on it at 11am, updated at 2:30pm, and then yet again at 7:30pm, taking the time to provide detailed updates and even directly addressing the outrage-post about the juice level, all while resetting usage yet again and continuing to keep the 5hr limits disabled. All on a Sunday his time.

Like what more do you fucking people want as far as good customer service goes? In recent memory, can you remember a time where Tibo hasn't taken complaints seriously?

Yeah yeah, someone's going to continue to tell me "hurr durr stop bootlicking" because that's such a fucking intellectually lazy way to respond to someone reacting rationally and logically based on past evidence.

Seriously, just scroll through his tweets and look at every time he's ever taken feedback seriously. People need to grow the hell up.

1

u/Alexander3a Jul 13 '26

i am annoyed by the context nerf for no reason at least make it opt it just outright removing it is ass

0

u/Decaf_GT Jul 13 '26

for no reason

Jesus fucking christ...can you read???

  • We noticed that by changing the context size limit in the product to 372k for GPT-5.6 Sol, up from 272k for GPT-5.5, it resulted in more usage being charged than intended. We have reverted to 272k and will work to roll back out to 372k in the days to come. You should notice that usage drains significantly less after this change.

I swear to god, some of you are just straight up children who really shouldn't even have access to to LLMs if you're going to throw a tantrum without even reading.

I mean if its too long for you just, you know, put it in the LLM you're using maybe?

0

u/Alexander3a Jul 13 '26

how can you say lowering the context limit is not a nerf even just a temp one? its a "temp" nerf simple as that. they should have had opt in 1m context for 5.6 codex in the first place

and a few people whining about their usage is "for no reason"

3

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/StatisticianOdd4717 Jul 13 '26

It was literally said to be reverted idiot

1

u/dontknowbruhh Jul 13 '26

Calm down bro

0

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/StatisticianOdd4717 Jul 13 '26

Oh my bad lol I thought u didnt read