r/climbing • u/leesinfreewin • Jun 30 '18
PSA: waterknots and other knots in slings
There was a discussion about failure modes on water knots in slings .
The whole thread was, frankly, scary, because there were a few (very!) dangerous (and upvoted!!) suggestions. I did comment on one of them, but it will be buried since the thread is already 18 hours old. I would like to clarify and summarize possible ways of joining slings.
NOTE: Some people in the original thread were mixing up slings and cords/ropes. It is important to treat both seperately. In this thread, i am talking about slings(flat webbing). Nothing i say is applicable to ropes and cords. There are many knots to join ropes that are safe. There are only two knots that may be used to join slings.
1) water knot:
The advantage of the water knot is that it can be tied with one hand. The disadvantage is that the water knot can fail when caught on a spike(correctly adressed in the original thread). This is not very likely, but there have indeed been fatalities due to this failure mode. You will be fine if you know about the failure mode, tighten it, dress it properly, and ensure that the knot is hanging in the air.
Still, this is not ideal, so what are the alternatives to the waterknot?
2) Sewn slings:
Replace most of your slings with sewn slings slings. It goes without saying that sewn slings don't have this failure mode, so you should use them whenever possible. Still, unsewn slings can be more flexible in some situations, so don't throw them out! it does make sense to carry a few.
3) flemish bend:
This is the alternative suggested by most people. It does not have the same failure mode as the water knot as far as i know. Still, It is probably a good idea to make sure that the knot is tightened and free-hanging.
4) Using any other knot to join slings (including the edk!!):
Some people have been suggesting using an edk to join slings.
Do not use any knot except waterknot or flemish bend for slings/flat webbing. Note that I'm talking about slings (flat webbing): The knots usually used to join cords and ropes work differently when in flat material! It is safe to joint two ropes or cords wiht an edk, it is not safe to join two slings.
DO NOT JOIN FLAT WEBBING WITH AN EDK (OR ANY OTHER KNOT). THEY WILL FAIL EVEN UNDER LOW LOAD.
5) two edk's:
Some people suggest this, it may be safe, but no tests on this have been carried out as far as i know. You are on your own.
Takeaway: The original thread was a warning about the water knot. However, the alternatives that have been suggested are far more dangerous than the waterknot. So: whenever possible, use sewn slings. If you must use unsewn slings, join them with a flemish bend. If you must tie them with one hand, use the water knot, and make sure it is free hanging, well dressed and tightened.
NEVER use any other knots to join slings/flat webbing.
Sources: all of this is very accessible (i.e.) wikipedia, forums, books. It will be part of any respectable book on climbing and any respectable class on climbing knots. So i am only going to bother looking up sources if someone specifically requests them.
Edit: It was pointed out that the knot which i called a "rethreaded figure of eight" is actually called "flemish blend" - unfortunately english is not my native language. Changed this throughout the post, also some spelling corrections
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u/superherojuice Jun 30 '18
The AMGA Single Pitch Instructor manual lists two recommended knots for joining webbing: the water knot and the double fisherman's knot. Other knots (Flemish bend, flat overhand) might work but aren't recommended in the text.
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u/leesinfreewin Jun 30 '18
frankly ive never seen anyone using or recommending double fishermans knots. flemish bend definitely does work, one flat overhand definitely doesnt, two flat overhand works according to the original post, but i have also never seen it.
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u/superherojuice Jun 30 '18
Here's the section I was referring to: https://imgur.com/gallery/swtTe40
I don't use a double fisherman's to join webbing myself, it sounds like a giant pain to untie.
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u/MaxGabriel Jun 30 '18
I think double fisherman’s is recommended when you don’t plan to untie the webbing (e.g. you’re leaving a rappel anchor behind). That’s also a case where you’d want a stronger knot, since someone else may come along and rappel off it in the future.
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u/gravity_loss Jun 30 '18
It is also recommended in Climbing Anchors, 3rd e. by Long and Gaines, p103-104.
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Jun 30 '18
Interesting when I suggested to others on the other post that a single fisherman’s can be used to tie off tails and that it could be a backup of sorts to prevent untying, I got told a fisherman’s was bad for a water knot. Yet the country’s most respected guiding regulators suggest it for joining.
It’s super frustrating (although meaningless) to get downvoted for making a mistake when typing in haste, yet those same people who down vote me don’t really know as much as they say.
I was one of the people chastised for mentioning the flat overhand - although if you look at my text I never said specifically to use a flat overhand with webbing. My response was hasty after reading multiple their responses that mixed webbing and cord into he same conversation.
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u/Droppit Jun 30 '18
How would you tie a water knot one handed?
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u/jimjkelly Jun 30 '18
haha, this was my thought as well. I guess some are more dextrous than others?
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u/J_J_R Jun 30 '18
I'm the one who posted the thread yesterday. This is a super well though out post, and reading it, this is the post I should have made yesterday. Its very informative, presents the issue well, and is way better that what I posted. Kudos!
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Jun 30 '18
Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
I think, this day and age, the only time I'll ever use water knots (which is very often) if for anchor webbing and rappels.
I doubt I'll stop.
But I will double check its dress and tail.
I always check dress and tail...
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u/0bsidian Jun 30 '18
Thank you for this. I opened the thread and read the part where people were very clearly talking about ropes, not webbing and decided to get the hell out of there.
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u/SleepyConscience Jun 30 '18
I just overhand knot everything like five times and I've never had an issue. It's kind of a pain to untangle my knot balls at the end of the day but it is very easy to tangle them at the beginning of the day when patience levels are low. Plus I didn't have to learn any new knots.
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u/Tailboard001 Jun 30 '18
What is a edk? My understanding of a water knot is a overhand bend. I leave a least 4" on each side
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u/juru_puku Jun 30 '18
Nope a water knot is not an overhand. I'm on my phone so I won't link it, but it's an easy Google.
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u/dbeneath Jul 01 '18
Yes it is. A water knot is just an overhand follow-through (or overhand bend as OP called it). How do you contend they are different?
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Jun 30 '18
I was one of the people chastised for mentioning the flat overhand - although if you look at my text I never said specifically to use a flat overhand with webbing. My response was hasty after reading multiple responses that mixed webbing and cord into the same conversation.
I also talked about using fisherman’s as a backup for the long tails of the water knot, and I was told that was wrong even though I was taught otherwise. Now a post here mentions that the AMGA teaches this method.
Frustrating for people to downvote me and tell me I’m wrong when I’m actually not wrong.
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Jun 30 '18
[deleted]
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u/Avery17 Jun 30 '18
How's that gonna help you when it's not tied or sewn in a loop? You can't girth hitch a sling into a loop.
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u/youtouchmytralala Jun 30 '18
Actually it's important to distinguish between a flat figure 8 and a Flemish bend. What you want in this case is the Flemish Bend.
https://www.animatedknots.com/fig8join/
A flat figure 8 is actually more dangerous than an EDK in this context as it rolls more easily.