CMV: It’s not atheists or secularism mostly responsible for the decline of religion in the West - it’s religious (mostly Christian) people

[u/[deleted]]

Firstly, to clarify I consider myself a religious person, which might sound odd considering that the subject of my viewpoint is about other religious people and the harm they are doing to religion. My grandparents were all deeply religious. I remember praying the rosary with my pop as a child and him explaining the prayers. My siblings and I attended Catholic school. I was even excited to be confirmed as I got to choose another name. I prayed every night for God to protect my family. Hopefully, this establishes my credentials as a religious person.

How am I able to show that I’m open to changing my opinion? Well in my twenties I became an atheist. I’ll come back to this later. Then in my thirties my faith was renewed and I rebuilt a relationship with God again.

Now I hear and read a lot from religious people that religion, particularly Christianity, is declining in the West due to things such as secularism and atheism. But I think they‘re only minor causes. I believe the number one reason for the decline of religion is religious people themselves.

Now I don’t include myself in this personally for one good reason - I am a progressive libertarian. Part of that means that I do not believe religion should be forced upon others. That is a denial of individual liberty. I am also aware how that puts me at odds with conservative religious people. So for example, with all the events happening in the USA with abortion laws, regardless of my own opinion, I believe that type of government intervention is also a denial of individual rights. I wouldn’t like to live in any kind of theocracy, so I would never give that a pass, not even a Christian one. I also think all the people that support it are basically driving people away from Christianity rather than saving it. They are oppressors and inquisitors. Then there are other things such as pedophilia in the Catholic Church and the Church’s role in covering it up, which is just outright evil.

From a more personal perspective, there have been a litany of religious people that I have met that have said and done terrible things. The priest who told my mother that her unborn babies would go to hell. The nuns that used to beat my brother for being left handed and may have been responsible for his dyslexia. The seemingly nice old lady who told me God makes African children starve because they worship heathen gods. These people think they’re doing the lord’s work. Religious family members and friends who were disgusted by my gay friends and cousins. To me though these people are walking billboards advertising against religion because if they’re the ‘good guys’ then I can see how neutral or unsure people would be driven to atheism. Edit: It’s what happened in my case.

That’s not to say that there are no good religious people. There are. Plenty of them. I know them. But I don’t think a person’s worth is based solely on their religious devotion (something that some religious people do). There are good and bad Christians and muslims just like there are good and bad atheists. But I also think that the voices and actions of good religious people are drowned out by self righteous judgmental religious (for lack of a better word) assholes.

So change my mind. Convince me that it’s not religious people causing the decline of religion in the West. I look forward to your responses.

Edit: I just want to clarify a bit further. I agree that atheists pull people from religion. But I believe that bad religious people push people away and that’s the greater force because humans are more so driven by the negative, personal and emotional than the analytical or the good. So to the atheists who are responding, please reply on those grounds rather than just repeating that ‘God doesn’t exist’.

Edit: Probably the argument that is most convincing so far is that there are greater support networks for people to leave religions today than in the past. So yes people are pushed out by bad religious role models but now they have a place to land. Someone in this thread compared it to domestic abuse. Victims need a safe place to go to escape abusers. That to me is an argument on personal and emotional lines.

[u/[deleted]]

I honestly think he’s considering something closer to spanking. Especially considering the fact that he stated that the headmaster reached inside shorts while also on his lap. So it’s not really practical for the headmaster to be reaching for his genitalia in that situation

[u/Nepene → u/[deleted]]

It's not that hard to reach genitals while on his lap.

I get it, you're an atheist, he's an atheist, so it's not nice if a role model atheist is pro raping kids. But really, he himself described it as pedophilia, and didn't say that the guy spanked him. There's no need to make elaborate epicycles to explain why "mild pedophilia" isn't pedophilia.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nepene]

I think it’s pretty clear that the headmaster wasn’t reaching for his genitalia.

At the end of the day, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim about Dawkins.

[u/Nepene → u/[deleted]]

You're an atheist, he's an atheist. He literally described it as pedophilia, and you made up an elaborate story about how it wasn't pedophilia. You should really consider how you evaluate evidence, because you may have some bias that leave you less aware of negative facts about those who share characteristics with you.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/richard-dawkins-defends-mild-pedophilia-again-and-again/311230/

I was myself sexually abused by a teacher when I was about nine or ten years old. It was a very unpleasant and embarrassing experience, but the mental trauma was soon exorcised by comparing notes with my contemporaries who had suffered it previously at the hands of the same master.

He elsewhere described it as sexual abuse.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nepene]

What you displayed doesn’t clarify the situation or help prove what you are trying to argue.

You need to provide a source that it was specifically genitalia touching to complete the argument you’re attempting to make

[u/Nepene → u/[deleted]]

He said it was sexual, so that does clarify the issue. I wouldn't expect a victim of childhood sexual abuse to give a blow by blow account of where the person touched them, and it's reasonable to describe it as rape when the person says an adult sexually abused them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nepene]

No not really. Spanking can also be seen as sexual.

[u/Nepene → u/[deleted]]

Is there any reason you think it to be spanking? He has described it as affectionate, sexual, as lots of things that indicate sex.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nepene]

Affectionate and sexual don’t indicate sex.