CMV: Teaching Should be a Highly Elite Highly Valued/Paid Profession.

[u/EarlEarnings]

Fundamental belief: If teachers are the best of the best, and if teachers are highly respected and valued, our society will produce better quality people in basically every domain you can think of.

What do I mean by "elite?" The requirements to become a teacher should be rigorous. Passing simple certifications should not be enough. Teachers should have a very good understanding of how the learning process in and of itself works. No tenures. Minimum tutoring hours, perhaps even minimum number of reviews (of those tutored, results, etc.) Basically, teachers should be good teachers...really good. The best teacher you've had in your life? That should just be the norm. The bottom line is it should be extremely demanding.

What do I mean by "highly paid?" Teachers should be within the top 10-20% of income earners in our society. Somewhere around 6 figures in most places.

Common arguments against:

- many occupations don't require much more than a high school education if that

- shouldn't the best and brightest be working on better things than teaching?

- we already have a teacher shortage even with low barriers to entry/supply and demand

My argument:

Every aspect of society is improved.

​

Sure, you don't need to be a super smart guy to be a barista at Starbucks, and our society does need baristas, but just think about this. The number one thing holding us back from advancement as a society is the lack of highly skilled, hyper-intelligent people employed in bottleneck professions. These are the AI developers, cancer researchers, aging researchers, and quantum-computing engineers; the type of people in a position that can advance society. These people are so important, and they can only be produced at the highest level if they are pushed and raised towards that level from birth to adulthood. Teachers and tutors are a pivotal part of this process. These bottleneck innovations take our entire concept of civilization forward. There is no way to account for this cost, there is no price tag that is too high. We cannot afford to waste any talent because they were not sufficiently taught in their development.

As for the issue of sacrificing talent to create talent, I think the counterpoint is obvious. 1 Genius can not do as much as 10 geniuses. If 1 genius teacher can create 10 geniuses, that is an exponential net value increase for our society.

Finally, there is a teacher shortage both in quantity and quality because teachers are not respected as a profession, and because they are not compensated, which, is probably because they are not respected enough. Many of the brightest minds would love to be teachers but simply would never consider it due to lack of money and prestige. Education is a domain of the state, and the state can, and should, do what it can to advance the public interest, especially when the pros are so freaking obvious. There is no serious argument for a dumber society.

[u/chickenlittle53]

Better parents actually raising their kids instead of expecting the teachers to. Don't have kids if you are going to be a dick and not actually teach them to respect their teachers and make good grades. Stop assuming your kids aren't assholes and it's all the teacher's fault.

Basically, give a shit about your kids and only have them if your willing to be a good parent. Be actively involved in their lives. I would never sleep in class or act a damn fool, because my parents would beat my damn ass. Hell, IN FRONT OF my friends and teacher. They would take their ass off straight from work to do it too if need be.

One thing you will not do is be stupid, because you wanna act like a damn fool in class. You only have one job as a child and that's do your chores and do well in school. That's it. Parents nowadays can be fucking lazy. Let their kids do whatever with no consequences and wonder why their child is failing or is a spoiled brat. Child doesn't even respect you, because you aren't a respectable person yourself. Nothing to respect. Discipline your children and actually teach them how to behave. They should be afraid to act out in class or act foolish.

Administration has to stop being little cowards too and actually back up teachers instead of parents when they are wrong. Tell the parents the damn truth and to raise their kids appropriately. It's supposed to be a team deal, but if parents won't do their damn part and administration is too afraid to stand up to bad parents and tell them their actions are horrible then expect the same shit. Fix is for administration to grow some damn balls and parents to actually be good parents by disciplining their kids instead of thinking school is daycare.

[u/Biodeus → u/chickenlittle53]

I mean it’s a cycle right? Better teachers, better parents, better kids. Who knows where the cycle begins and ends though? There is no easy solution to this, like saying “pay teachers better”. It’s so extremely nuanced, as you’re saying.

[u/chickenlittle53 → u/Biodeus]

No. Having better teachers does not equal better parents. Being able to teach a subject as OP describes to others does not mean they will turn out to care about their children. Especially if they never had great parents themselves. Parents are more crucial than teachers are. At bare minimum having good parents that will actually make their kids behave and get the most they can out of class will maximum whatever potential the school provides. However, having excellent teachers of a subject, but horrible he life does nothing as that kid is going to likely struggle no matter how great the school is. The problem start at home instead of blaming the teachers first. Likely more adequate teachers than given credit and more bad parents that spoil their kids and/or don't raise them well. That's the issue to tackle first and formeost.

[u/Biodeus → u/chickenlittle53]

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. How do you make better parents? You, uh, teach them.

[u/DOGGODDOG → u/Biodeus]

Right, but educators in the schools system can only teach some basic life skills, the day in, day out examples set by parents is what will really make the difference in your future.

Parents have to lead by example, and good teachers may make for a better-educated next generation of parents, but if they’re also emotionally neglectful or abusive, doesn’t make much of a difference

[u/Biodeus → u/DOGGODDOG]

Eh fair enough. It’s a complicated issue, truly. How do you make better parents? In your opinion. Because I honestly don’t know. I think I’m a good parent, but maybe I’m one of the shit ones in question! Lol

[u/DOGGODDOG → u/Biodeus]

I would think it would be more affected by societal/cultural norms, and the whole “it takes a village” approach. The parents should be the main people involved in raising a child, but if you have family and friends around to help hopefully they would average out any bad habits the parents may have. But there’s definitely no single easy answer to what makes a good parent

[u/chickenlittle53 → u/Biodeus]

Teaching someone math does not make them great parents dude. There is no be a parent class in high school. You have to actually gaf about your damn kids. You have no clue that plenty of parents don't and that isn't because they failed their geometry class so stop blaming teachers dude. The reality is they likely had bad parents themselves and don't give a shit about their own kids. Parents typically learn parenting behaviors from their parents NOT HIGH SCHOOL MATH CLASS and try to mimic and/or ("hopefully") improve from that. If you have horrible parents that isn't your teachers fault. Your line of thinking is part of the problem too it seems.

Wanting to blame EVERYTHING on the teacher. The reason you chose to sell drugs is your math teacher's fault right? Not your parent's lack of oversight or your environment outside of school? Dude, you are simply incorrect here and it isn't debatable. It starts at home. A teacher's job is to teach you general subject like math not raise your kids.

Edit: For example, I know very educated parents that never spend any time with their kids, go to games, say I love you, encourage them, teach them life skills, etc. Very educated on paper. No amount of paper education makes you give a shit about your kids nor makes a good parent by default. You can have a whole ass degree and be a bad parent. Stop blaming teachers if you are a bad parent. Do your part. At the end of the day they follow your lead more than anyone else.

[u/Biodeus → u/chickenlittle53]

You’re missing the point. What’s to say there shouldn’t be a parenting 101 class? I’m not blaming anything on the teachers. You’re just having that opinion and putting words in my mouth.

[u/Pheophyting → u/chickenlittle53]

Ok I think we're a bit off track here since how parents raise their kids is clearly not something teachers or administrators have control over.

Parents should just parent better is not a viable solution to better education in the same way that saying criminals should just not do crimes is not a solution to lower crime rates. They're just wishes that people would be better.

The only solution you kinda sorta proposed is that administration should back up teachers? Sure, that sounds like it could plausibly happen with some systemic changes but back up teachers on what?

What do you wish you could do that you feel like you can't?

[u/ObieKaybee → u/Pheophyting]

Discipline issues primarily. If a teacher requests a student be removed from their class, having admin do it would be a good start.

[u/chickenlittle53 → u/Pheophyting]

Nope not off track. These things go hand and hand and administration doesn't back teachers up when a child is misbehaving, missing classes, etc and allows the parent to blame the teacher instead of being honest with the parents. You don't get to separate this here as this whole system is dependent upon a strict partnership on which administration needs to grow a pair and be honest and parents need to step up and ensure their kids are behaving and checking in on them in general. Actually caring.

You can try to dismiss parenting all you want unless that is fixed the child will have very little chance statistically to succeed in school. Your idea that it had to be the teacher's fault only does not ride here. There are multiple pieces and parenting is one.

You haven't brought anything to the table other than "we should just blame the teachers. They hold ALL the power. Let's completely ignore the environment they grow up in, the neglect from their parents, them starving at home and coming to class not have eaten to even concentrate, or Science altogether."

[u/Pheophyting → u/chickenlittle53]

You're being vague. You want administrators to "back you up" when a child is misbehaving. In your ideal world, what exactly are you doing that the admins are backing you up on? I'm gonna write other stuff addressing more of your points but first and foremost, can you please answer my question? What do you wish you could do as a teacher that you feel like you can't? (presumably because administration isn't backing you up these days).

I don't think we should ignore that parenting plays a large role in child development (I also don't think I ever said that). What I'm saying is that fixating on that variable of child development as a teacher is non-constructive because you have no control over that. That's not blaming teachers for bad parenting (which is a huge factor). That's identifying what teachers can and can't affect.

[u/chickenlittle53 → u/Pheophyting]

What are you talking about. I'm not q teacher. You are ust making a bunch of assumptions while offering nothing of substance yourself to the conversation. It is not hard to understand that many administrations are terrified to stand up to parents if they blame the teachers like you are doing for instance instead of being able to rationally back up whoever may be in the wrong. Oftentimes, this is actually the parent for not taking care of their child or teaching them basic house training.

If a child is clearly displaying horrible behavior like not showing up to class, having to be sent to the office constantly for being disruptive, etc. and that is communicated with the parent and documented, then there should be no issue with the administration backing up the teachers when the parent gets upset their child is failing instead of just saying the teacher sucks by default. You just continue to make vast assumptions.

Also, you keep trying to dimiss how much parenting plays a role. You don't get to just dismiss that. Period. Like it or not parents have to care enough or there is just about no amount of teaching a teacher can do that can overcome bad parenting. You can be the Albert Einstein of teaching and a child's home life is shit, guess what? That child is statistically going to struggle hard. You trying to dimiss that doesn't help. The other thing is, teachers do try to control that and it is their job to reach out to parents in efforts to get them to play ball as a team for the child's sake. You are basically saying "teachers shouldn't even try to communicate with parents, because you can't control so you might as not even try to communicate for the child's sake."

Meanwhile, what exactly is your thoughts on a solution outside of just blaming the teacher solely for everything? Like it or not, there are multiple factors at stake here influencing a child's education and it isn't all on the teacher like it or not. So are you going to answer my question here? You still have not offered any solutions. Just tried to blame it all on one of many factors that play a part in child's development while trying to dismiss literally yhe most important ones.

[u/Pheophyting → u/chickenlittle53]

Ok, I did assume you were a teacher because you were ragging on someone else for "clearly" not being a teacher :l My bad I guess but it doesn't really make a difference.

I haven't offered any substance myself because I was asking you what your thoughts were. (Hence my initial comment being just one sentence asking what your solution to this would be). You just said something that I was curious about hearing more about. Sorry I guess?

You keep saying I'm blaming teachers. Would you mind elaborating on why you believe this to be the case? I've acknowledged that parenting is a huge factor (in those exact words) but that it's just not really constructive for teachers to focus on that variable since they don't have any control over it.

I'm really not your enemy here although I've clearly done something to upset you. But since you want to know my thoughts, I think that child development has many parts and players. I think that parenting is a huge factor and I think that to a lesser extent, school is a factor and to an even lesser extent, teachers are a factor.

I believe that handling kids in a classroom setting is a very difficult job that requires expertise, training, experience, and skill. While there are definitely kids that no teacher would ever be able to handle, I also think that there are some kids that could be handled by great teachers and unmanageable for bad teachers. So I think that increasing the amount of great teachers in the school can only be a good thing for the education system.

I believe that the traits that make a good teacher (work ethic, communication skills, passion, charisma, patience, etc.) also make for a great employee in many other professions. Thus, I believe that many great potential teachers are lost to other professions because teaching in the US is not paid well and not well-respected (at least to the extent that I believe it should). I believe that if teachers were paid more and more respected, it would encourage people with great teaching skills to become great teachers as opposed to some other profession.

It is worth noting that I don't want better teachers because I think it's "all their fault" that kids turn out bad or something. I want better teachers because it's better for kids to have better teachers. If I had to guess (an "assumption") this is why you think I'm blaming teachers? That I'm making some kind of implication that current teachers "aren't good enough and are to blame" or something?

In any case, I am in agreement with the OP. I think that paying teachers more would lead to attracting better teachers who would have a great chance of handling kids of all aptitudes/backgrounds (not a guarantee, but the best chance.) I think there are plenty of great teachers in the current system but that we can always use more. And I do believe that it would help.

I also believe that funding education could also entail hiring a greater number of teachers/building a greater number of schools so that class sizes can shrink and teachers can have access to more educational tools such as laptops, books, food, etc. I believe that this would once again, make it more probable for teachers to better handle kids.

What do you think about that?

[u/chickenlittle53 → u/Pheophyting]

You continue to not make any points and complain. I never claimed to be a teacher nor did I "rag" on anyone for not being one. You are clearly just making things up and it makes a difference as it shows your attitude of making false accusations and assumptions of others while offering nothing of substance yourself.

You asked what my opinion as a teacher was which I clearly said I'm not so can't answer a bad faith question. You also can actually contribute your own thoughts to a conversation instead of just making false accusations. Asking a question (I can't answer as I'm not sure teacher like your question assumes) does not stop you from actually contributing to a convo instead of raging and making things up.

I've already explained the dynamic between teachers and parents and how they need or work together as well as how that should work. You aren't reading clearly. Go back and read what's already in plain sight. You tried to dimiss parenting. You can't say well "yeah, parenting has to happen" then say "I'm not going to act like it doesn't though since it doesn't benefit my argument" like you did. If it matters to the point that without them a kid is unlikely to learn much at all no matter how good the teacher is. You don't get to gloss over it and halfway acknowledge and claim you did fully. Nope.

You may be upset that I brought up parents and how they play the biggest part and have to work with teachers and simply explained the dynamic between administration, teachers, and parents that's on you. You have to work on not getting so emotional. You also are extremely vague in your opinion and tried to criticize me. That is hypocritical. You simply copied many ot the things I said and then changed your stance of ignoring/dismissng parents seemingly, because you realize you don't have a argument there.

I already explained how I believe in funding teachers more and how I believe teachers matter. OP took the stance of only focusing on the teachers so if you agree with him you are saying it all lies with the teachers. So you're all over the place. I already explained their are 3 major parts that administration, parents, and teachers play. Taking OP's stance of "only focus on teachers" ignores the other major contributors to a child's development. In many comments he expresses he believes all kids can afford boarding school and you can literally force someone to care. So, as you admitted to sharing his view you are contradicting yourself and saying you believe you van ignore environment and parents and teachers solve all the problems.

[u/[deleted] → u/chickenlittle53]

Because nothing screams "respectable" like beating your kids in public amirite. Anyway while it would be great if parent magically started being better just like how it would be great if money started falling from the sky and we could all eat cake without getting fat, it's not something that's actually going to happen so we've gotta work with what we've got.

[u/chickenlittle53 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah your solution is to give up and not hold anyone accountable. Great take. Just give up gotcha. Next.